Puppy pads

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Shalista
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Puppy pads

Post by Shalista »

I've been thinking a lot about Bax's pottying in the house. On the other thread I realized that after having him for 2+ years he's never asked to go out before, I just take him out every 2-3 hours and if i dont then he potties in the house.

I'm tempted to throw in the proverbial towel on pottying outside and rig up a system like the one Emabeth describes on viewtopic.php?f=4&p=153976#p153976 with a big tray and mulch. What are your thoughts on that? do you think it would fix my problem?
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Puppy pads

Post by jacksdad »

Shalista wrote:I've been thinking a lot about Bax's pottying in the house. On the other thread I realized that after having him for 2+ years he's never asked to go out before, I just take him out every 2-3 hours and if i dont then he potties in the house.

I'm tempted to throw in the proverbial towel on pottying outside and rig up a system like the one Emabeth describes on viewtopic.php?f=4&p=153976#p153976 with a big tray and mulch. What are your thoughts on that? do you think it would fix my problem?
First, my personal opinion. Not a big fan of depending on the dog to "tell me" they need to go out. you should be able to stretch your time between bathroom breaks a little bit, but I prefer if people just take the initiative and every 4 hours or so give their dog a change to go outside to go to the bathroom. a healthy dog that has solid house training can "hold it" longer than 4 hours, but if there is no reason for them to, why ask them too.

from a trainer perspective, I think choosing one option and going with it is less confusing and more likely to be successful. if you want to fix up something for him to go in the house, do just that. Don't sometimes expect him to go in the house on the pad this time, but then another time he is supposed to know that he is to hold it and wait until taken outside.

pick one that will work best for your situation, train that. you can always change your mind later. That isn't an issue. it's the arbitrary flip flopping that you want to avoid.
AliceGrimm
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:38 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Puppy pads

Post by AliceGrimm »

jacksdad wrote:pick one that will work best for your situation, train that. you can always change your mind later. That isn't an issue. it's the arbitrary flip flopping that you want to avoid.
So you are saying there is no way to do both crate training and an inside potty spot?

If you do as you say and just the the puppy out every 2 to 4 hours, whether they need to go or not, and when you can not be home to do that and leave a potty area for them, are you saying that would just confuse them?

What about puppies that were raised in sort of the misty method. And the breeder pulled the newspaper back little by little. Would it still be such a difficult stretch for the puppies to know one spot for pottying indoors is okay, and went they go outside it would be okay as well?

I am sorry to pretty much say the same thing. But I am just trying to understand where the confusion would come in and try to understand how puppies think. I want to set my puppy to be up for success.
DianeLDL
Posts: 832
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 4:16 pm
Location: Maine USA

Re: Puppy pads

Post by DianeLDL »

jacksdad wrote:First, my personal opinion. Not a big fan of depending on the dog to "tell me" they need to go out. you should be able to stretch your time between bathroom breaks a little bit, but I prefer if people just take the initiative and every 4 hours or so give their dog a change to go outside to go to the bathroom. a healthy dog that has solid house training can "hold it" longer than 4 hours, but if there is no reason for them to, why ask them too.
Sorry to jump in here, but this topic is of interest to me, too, although Sandy is nearly 7 years old. But, being a chihuahua, he has a small bladder. We have found that depending on the time of day and how much water he has been drinking, he can sometimes wait 4 hours for me to take him out then, or if it's the afternoon when he has been drinking a lot, he will let us know and often it could be only an hour.

I have a bad sense of time (OH has a clock in his head), so when I'm the one who has to take Sandy out, usually afternoon and evening (OH sleeps from 7pm until 2:30am so he usually takes Sandy at 3:45am, then again at 7:30 or 8am). As long as he goes back to sleep when OH is at the gym and I'm still asleep, Sandy can hold it until OH returns from the gym.

But, I have him after he has eaten, been exercising, so he is drinking much more water, and may even have to potty after one and half hours. So, I have found due to my losing track of time, I have a reminder on my cell phone that after I set the first time, it goes off after 2 hours, and it will keep bugging me every 5 minutes until I take him out.

Then, later in the evening, when Sandy has been in bed sleeping, I wake him to go out one last time so he can hold it until 3:45 or thereabouts.

Since we are still in Maine until mid-January, I'm not sure how to handle the fact that there may end up being quite a bit of snow. Sandy is used to 1-3 inches which we get in Albuquerque due to elevation of 5000 ft, but I it melts there. In Maine, it usually stays and adds up.

Not only that, but Sandy still won't wear a jacket or sweater. So, I'm hoping that the cold air will prompt him to potty quickly to come back inside. We do have an "indoor potty with plastic bottom and top with something like fake grass. And, he has used it mainly when we don't pick up his hint that he needs to go out, but just seeing him go towards the potty a couple of times, we get the hint, leash him, and take him outside.

But, we notice that when it's cold outside, he may urinate outside, and come right back in and have a BM on the potty. It's frustrating especially if we have kept him outside to try to give him time for both.

And, if we leave him at home, we make sure he goes outside to potty before we leave, but OH drives me crazy constantly looking at the time, and telling m how much time we have until its two hours. But, OH doesn't believe me that if we aren't home, Sandy can hold it 4 hours, and he has done that successfully. But, it's frustrating finally to go out to eat or to a function, and he watches the time and counts down.

We have noticed that when we aren't home, and Sandy is home alone, he doesn't touch his water bowl, and appears to stay in his bed until we get home. He hasn't used the potty at all even if it's been 4 hours.

In the summer, it's too hot to keep him in the car, and now with the Maine winter, even wrapping him in blankets, it does get cold in the car. I think the problem, too, is that OH is used to big dogs like German Shepherds, labs, etc. whose bladders are larger.

Jacksdad, do you have any suggestions how I may apporach OH and reassure him that Sandy is going to be okay and can wait at home as long as it's not more than 4 hours. This every 2 hours doesn't give us time to enjoy anything when out.

Also, Jacksdad, as you mentioned, it's the flip flopping that confuses the dog. So, we don't want Sandy to get used to going inside even when it's cold outside. In Albuquerque, with 1-3 inches, this past year, he began having no problems making yellow snow. Before then, he would only go where the snow had melted. In Maine, we pay for snow plowing, and they also do our walkway, so if I can get them to clear some of the snow from the grassy area, then Sandy has someplace he can go. And, we hope to be gone before the temps get to below 0 degrees F. it's already been 28 degrees F, with a dusting of snow.

Sandy has learned to go out when it's raining, even though we are the laughing stock of the neighborhood, since OH is outside in his bathrobe getting soaked with the umbrella over Sandy. :lol: (I, at least, have a rain jacket with a hood while holding the umbrella over Sandy.

So, I've tried to tie this in with the topic as to not wanting to flip flop and to be consistent so the dog knows what's expected. Also, is it too much to expect an 11 pound dog to hold his urine for 4 hours during the day? If he does have to go sooner than the time I give him, he will bark, to let us know since he is usually in a different part of the house, but we can still hear him.

Is there a way to train him to hold it for 4 hours? He is so used to now during the day of the at least every 2 hours which makes me feel like I'm not getting anything else done with my timer going off every 2 hours. Or, are we expecting too much at this point in time. Next month he will be 7 yo, and with us 6 years. Is it still possible to train him to wait up to 4 hours? Would it be a gradual lengthening of the amount of time?

Any suggestions from anyone here would be appreciated, especially those in colder climates...brr :roll:
Thanks,
Diane
PS: good to be back and to see you involved in training, I have another question for a different thread. :D
Sandy, Chihuahua mix b. 12/20/09
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Puppy pads

Post by jacksdad »

AliceGrimm wrote:
jacksdad wrote:pick one that will work best for your situation, train that. you can always change your mind later. That isn't an issue. it's the arbitrary flip flopping that you want to avoid.
So you are saying there is no way to do both crate training and an inside potty spot?
crate training typically means "teach dog to be comfortable in the crate with the door closed". but in the context of house training it is often used to encourage a dog to hold it "just a little bit longer". crates can't tell a dog where to go. So it's not an issue in this context as crates are more about where not to go.
AliceGrimm wrote:
If you do as you say and just the the puppy out every 2 to 4 hours, whether they need to go or not, and when you can not be home to do that and leave a potty area for them, are you saying that would just confuse them?
first off, realize that Bax is an adult dog and it is reasonable to expect him to be able to "hold it" for 4 or 5 hours if need be. Puppies are an entirely different matter. depending on the age, they won't have the control to "hold it". They will simply go when the need arises. so of course we take steps to address that like when we can't supervise them, they go in a potty pad lined xpen.

Let me give a real world example of my concern. Someone at the local park asked about house training. They had trained their dog to use a pad indoor. But then decided welll dog is now old enough he should start going outside. so without training for that, took the pad away. But then dog would go to the place the pad was and go to the bathroom. so they would put the pad back....then after a while decide to ok lets give this going outdoors another shoot.

see the difference between the flip flopping vs having a plan and training for it and being consistent?
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Puppy pads

Post by jacksdad »

Diane,

been a while. Wow...Sandy is reaching 7....has it really been that long???

sooo...the other half... well you could start keeping a log of each time you are away for 4 hours and if Sandy is successful for holding it or not. So if you impression of Sandy is correct you can then point to the log and say "in X amount of time no accidents". Can't argue with data and maybe that will help your OH relax.

as for training sandy to hold it longer. First, don't remove his water. I doubt you would do this, but just encase other people pass by. There are still people who suggest this. it can actually cause problems achieving your goal. Rather what you do is if you are setting a timer to take a dog out ever X amount of hours...in your case 2 hours. Add 5 min a week to your timer.

So this week... timer is 2 hours
next week...the timer is 2 hours, 5 minutes
the following week...timer is is 2 hours, 10 minute.

just don't jump how long you ask Sandy to wait too much too quick.
AliceGrimm
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:38 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Puppy pads

Post by AliceGrimm »

jacksdad wrote:crate training typically means "teach dog to be comfortable in the crate with the door closed". but in the context of house training it is often used to encourage a dog to hold it "just a little bit longer". crates can't tell a dog where to go. So it's not an issue in this context as crates are more about where not to go.
I am hoping to get a puppy next year. I want to give myself time to prepare and learn about how to take care of and train a puppy before rushing in and getting one. I understand the idea behind crate training and I adore that it gives a puppy a place of his/her own. And the training part to get a puppy not to mess in a bed like area. I also know puppies can only hold for so long until they get older.

Could a person like myself just take a puppy out, who has no control, every hour and then every two hours, etc. as the puppy gets holder when I am home. And when I have gap of four hours of no person inside my household being home, could I get a puppy safe area and put a potty area so the puppy won't be forced to empty in the crate and has the ability to move around and play and get water.

And then when I am also home and I want to get housework done or something else, do some crate training to help the puppy learn to hold it for periods of time. Perhaps an hour or so and then let the puppy out and just play and be taken out as normal?

Would this sort of thing be a good way to train a puppy? Perhaps take longer than others, but would it be non-stressful and helpful to a puppy as their ability to hold grows, and then slowly remove the potty area when the puppy can hold longer and just keep up with taking the puppy outside or helping them learn to hold it?
jacksdad wrote:Let me give a real world example of my concern. Someone at the local park asked about house training. They had trained their dog to use a pad indoor. But then decided welll dog is now old enough he should start going outside. so without training for that, took the pad away. But then dog would go to the place the pad was and go to the bathroom. so they would put the pad back....then after a while decide to ok lets give this going outdoors another shoot.

see the difference between the flip flopping vs having a plan and training for it and being consistent?
That does make sense! I am sorry for butting in. But it seemed like a semi similar topic to something I was curious about. And there are so many threads on here about puppy pads and lots of them talk about not using wee pads and stuff. I just wanted to see if I could get more opinions and be able to ask questions as well.

Thank you so much!
Shalista
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Re: Puppy pads

Post by Shalista »

first off, realize that Bax is an adult dog and it is reasonable to expect him to be able to "hold it" for 4 or 5 hours if need be.
My problem is that he simply doesn't. He's 3+ years old and has never been able to hold his bladder longer than 3 hours outside of his crate. I was thinking if he had the additional option of a puppy pad on top of going out that he might be less inclined to wee or poo around the house when the urge struck.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
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Nettle
Posts: 10753
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Re: Puppy pads

Post by Nettle »

I think you would be setting yourself up for a totally unhousetrained dog instead of the partially trained one you have now. carry on as you have been and keep a diary - this often pinpoints areas where improvements can be made, and times when he is stressing about things. We all need to potty more when we are stressed. And frankly I think 3 hours is long enough between potty breaks.


I know it is tempting to get annoyed and frustrated but remember he isn't doing this deliberately to annoy you.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Puppy pads

Post by jacksdad »

Shalista wrote:
first off, realize that Bax is an adult dog and it is reasonable to expect him to be able to "hold it" for 4 or 5 hours if need be.
My problem is that he simply doesn't. He's 3+ years old and has never been able to hold his bladder longer than 3 hours outside of his crate. I was thinking if he had the additional option of a puppy pad on top of going out that he might be less inclined to wee or poo around the house when the urge struck.
if the goal is for him to go outside to eliminate, the stay focused on the goal.

close off the parts of the house you don't want to risk him going to the bathroom in.

set a timer to remind you to take him out. start at 2 hours 45 min or 3 hours. whichever will help you and Bax be successful. every week or two add 5 min.

keep a log so you can tell if you improvement is actually happening.
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Puppy pads

Post by jacksdad »

AliceGrimm wrote:I am hoping to get a puppy next year. I want to give myself time to prepare and learn about how to take care of and train a puppy before rushing in and getting one. I understand the idea behind crate training and I adore that it gives a puppy a place of his/her own. And the training part to get a puppy not to mess in a bed like area. I also know puppies can only hold for so long until they get older.
Personally, I would not restrict a puppy to a crate until they are developmentally able to actually control their bladder and bowls. Nettles would be a much better source for an average age for when that is.

At the very least, I would not lock a puppy in a crate until they can reliably control them self for at least and hour and would not leave them in there for longer than they are able to reliably control their bladder or and bowls.

Use an x-pen lined with potty pads for when you are not able to supervise.

Even still, I would STRONGLY encourage proactively taking the puppy outside to go to the bathroom and re enforce for when puppy gets it right.
AliceGrimm wrote:Could a person like myself just take a puppy out, who has no control, every hour and then every two hours, etc. as the puppy gets holder when I am home. And when I have gap of four hours of no person inside my household being home, could I get a puppy safe area and put a potty area so the puppy won't be forced to empty in the crate and has the ability to move around and play and get water.
yes, you are on the right track. but at the very young ages, even holding it an hour maybe too long. make sure the interval between being taken out is age appropriate.

what are the odds of having someone help out and watch your puppy at these young ages?
AliceGrimm wrote:And then when I am also home and I want to get housework done or something else, do some crate training to help the puppy learn to hold it for periods of time. Perhaps an hour or so and then let the puppy out and just play and be taken out as normal?

Would this sort of thing be a good way to train a puppy? Perhaps take longer than others, but would it be non-stressful and helpful to a puppy as their ability to hold grows, and then slowly remove the potty area when the puppy can hold longer and just keep up with taking the puppy outside or helping them learn to hold it?
you are on the right track. and it is ok to use management such as xpen lined with potty pads if you need to step away and do house work, answer the phone, go to the bathroom your self :wink: , make some food, get some sleep etc.

BUT..... the more we can help the puppy get it right...go outside, the quicker that goal is achieved.

here is a couple resources for you
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/store/Way-To-Go.html

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6125
AliceGrimm
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:38 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Puppy pads

Post by AliceGrimm »

jacksdad wrote:what are the odds of having someone help out and watch your puppy at these young ages?

here is a couple resources for you
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/store/Way-To-Go.html

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6125
Thank you so much! I do have one person, but as I will be working and they will be as well (different hours). So there may be a period of time where neither of us are home for a couple hours.

I just want to make sure I set the puppy up for success. And even if it takes a little longer.
I totally understand taking a puppy out as much as possible when you can so they understand learn where to potty and well I personally thing going out is good for them. Fresh air, a bit of outdoor time. It is lovely.

Anyways! Thank you so much!
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