STAY

[Holindominix]

Hello, could anyone help me with "stay".
Collie pup, roughly 5 and a half months old.
We missed the week we began it in obedience class, but have tried to do it at other lessons and from the worksheet and we were not very good and seem to be getting worse. With everything else I've taught her it seemed to just click and make sense to her, and to me. But this absence of doing anything is something she doesn't seem to be understanding and it seems like shes just sat there because she was debating what to do instead or just decides its boring and walks off.
In most cases she would sit there puzzled and then be surprised to be rewarded (even after multiple days and sessions).
We have really struggled with it, and despite both our best efforts I am now starting to get frustrated at myself that i can't figure out what i'm doing wrong when previously we have been learning well together.
We had built to maybe a 10 second stay, but now I cant even get a 1 second stay, as soon as I offer the signal and/or word she immediately walks off or wanders to sit behind me (if on the lead) or walks off completely.
Any ideas what i'm doing wrong?
I offer an open hand in a "stop" type gesture as the stay signal - and wondered if this could be misconstrued for a "touch" signal as she seems to be confused now when i ask her to touch?

My wait signal is my thumb and first two fingers held up
We have built 'wait' up sufficiently that she can wait before taking a toy / I open a door (not 100% but getting better), getting food or to stop in the street. But we just cannot seem to get stay.

I think we might need to start over from the beginning so i've tried just offering my hand in the signal, counting to two and then rewarding (and in theory building up adding the word etc.) but she has walked off by then.

Would it be okay to teach her to stay while holding a toy - in order to have her attention - then praise, release from stay and reward with toy?

We start puppy advanced on saturday and i'm really anxious now about 'Stay'. I know a good stay is crucial for her in order to pass this class and be allowed to start agility.

[Erica]

I'll go over the way I taught my dog stay, starting from the beginning. I think it would be good for you to think of a new cue, but don't introduce it until you'd bet $50 the dog will stay!

If the stay with the toy works, that could be a good way to start. I know my dog doesn't really notice what he's doing when a toy is involved so training with them isn't helpful for him, but some dogs learn way better when toys are involved than when treats are.

Overall in training, remember to train in short bursts, maybe five minutes at a time. You can train several times throughout the day, but it'll be best if pup has a nap between sessions A note to remember with stay is you don't need to get stern - a lot of people start getting very serious with stay, using a big deep voice and shoving their hand in the dog's face. This can stress sensitive dogs out, and set training back. Using your normal calm but happy voice!

Don't rush, either. If you move too quickly, your dog won't have a strong understanding of the requirements, and it'll all fall apart.

Step one is get the dog to sit, then give the dog a treat every second for five seconds if they remain sitting. So, "sit," and then while keeping up a calm but happy stream of praise, treat, pause, treat, pause, treat, pause...then give the "okay!" or "free!" cue and encourage them to get up. Don't give treats for getting up, but do praise them. If they get up before you release them (eg at the third treat), next time give the release cue before they get up (eg after the second treat), and dispense treats faster. As you work on this, increase the pause between treats by half a heartbeat at a time. You don't need to get to more than two or three seconds between treats before moving to the next step.

Put dog in a sit, give your physical and verbal cue (calm, happy voice, cue not shoved in the dog's face - we encourage shoulder-height). Wait half a heartbeat, WITHOUT MOVING, then give the okay, start walking away and encourage pup to walk with you, and give a treat as you walk.

When they're familiar with that, put them in a sit, give them the stay cue, then move your foot out to the side and back without moving your body. If your dog gets up, you may have to just start with just leaning to the side, but most dogs do well with the foot movement. If they stay, mark/treat/give the okay, move around a little, then start again. Gradually start making this a step to the side. Do NOT take a step backwards - this is usually how you teach recall and can be very confusing for the dog. Instead, as yor dog gets to the point where you can take a few steps to either side, start angling a little bit backwards. Keep building up a little at a time.

If any of this seems strange to you feel free to ask questions!

[Holindominix]

thank you, this is very helpful. In everything else I've taught her it seemed to be natural to teach her as she was already doing something i wanted (like sit as she sits) etc. But with stay i and she are flummoxed. Your way of holding the sit (which she is already decent at) and translating that "hold" feature to be the way i want her to stay seems brilliant - definitely what i will try tomorrow.
The voice thing is interesting, i think i have been stern with the stay and that she maybe thinks she is in trouble - perhaps i've used the same tone as "no" so thats very interesting too - thank you hopefully ill be back in a few days with tales of success

[Erica]

Collies are pretty sensitive to voices and emotions, so it may be a part of the difficulty she's having.

I'm glad it makes sense! Will keep fingers crossed for you Usually these steps take dogs a couple weeks to be strong on, so take your time!

[Nettle]

"Stay" is a very hard exercise for a wriggly puppy. Personally I don't teach it until they are older than yours. There is plenty of other stuff you can work on. Don't fixate on what other people are doing, or on human goals of advanced classes etc. because yours is an individual and will develop at her own pace. In a while you won't be able to tell her apart from the ones that were "experts" earlier, but the gift of training is knowing when to put pressure on and when to avoid it. But a lot of 'obedient' pups rebel further down the line and give their owners problems, or develop coping skills that are unwanted.

You want your dog to be wonderful, and she will be. But at 5 months she is still a baby.