Re-Training the "Sit" Command

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btr323
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:41 pm

Re-Training the "Sit" Command

Post by btr323 »

Hello again,

My pup, Gypsy, has been a new dog since I started training her with the positive-reinforcement techniques I found here. I really can't thank y'all enough! She's responded incredibly well to clicker training, and now that I'm armed with this forum and a couple of Karen Pryor books, I'm excited to see how much she can learn. She finally has a reliable recall, and we're even working on "advanced" commands like "go to your mat" and "wipe your paws." More importantly, she seems to be much more at ease now, and (at least as far as I can tell) our relationship has never been better.

But I'm here because we can't seem to iron out the kinks on one of the most basic commands--"Sit." When she was much younger, I trained Gypsy to sit by telling her the command and then positioning her as desired. I now refuse to position her, but because I didn't train her by luring her into position I've found it difficult to get her to actually sit on command. She'll do it every time, but I often have to stop our interaction and make a point of ignoring her until she does it. If we're in a training session or I'm asking her to sit before I feed her, then she'll do it almost immediately. But otherwise, it can take five, ten, or even fifteen seconds for her to decide to obey the command. :roll:

I'd like to re-train her "Sit," using positive reinforcement, so that it becomes faster and more automatic. But because I taught her as a young puppy to sit as a way of asking for treats or pets, she will often offer a sit before I can even ask for it when I've got the clicker in my hand--making it hard to just have a training session focused on "Sit," which in turn makes it hard to try to extinguish the delays. How should I go about working on this? Do I need to return to square one and start luring her into position, then get her to associate the verbal cue with the sitting motion? Should I just keep the clicker on me more, so I can more consistently reward her when she sits quickly on command?

It's been a month or two since I posted, so here's a bit of refresher/background on my dog. Gypsy is a lab mix (probably with some collie, maybe with some great pyrenees or newfie) who just turned eight months old. She is a fearful dog by nature, and had a rough fear period between about five and six months of age; even now, her first reaction to a novel stimulus is fear and/or flight. I got her as a puppy and trained her with techniques that I now recognize as aversive (I know, I didn't know any better). When she was about six months old, she had a traumatic experience with her arch-nemesis, the apartment-complex dumpster, and we hit a low point--she was terrified of everything, including me, for a solid two or three weeks. We've turned things around through positive reinforcement (and a ton of TLC), and she's now much more confident with me, other dogs, and even strange humans. She should be hitting the "teenager" stage soon--she's up to about 75 pounds now, so I think it's safe to assume she's more on the "large breed" developmental schedule--but so far has remained a very calm, low-energy, and obedient dog. (But novel stimuli remain an issue--yesterday she saw her first skateboarder, and was in panic mode for three or four hours.)

Any and all help would be appreciated!
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Nettle
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:40 pm

Re: Re-Training the "Sit" Command

Post by Nettle »

Lovely to hear that you are both doing so well. :D


There are several ways to tackle this - here's mine:

I'd give her a break from 'sit' training. She is still growing and might there be a little soreness with her hips? She is politely reluctant to sit on command, which could be discomfort, or might be something else - but she offers a 'sit' when she wants to very much, so whatever is holding her back, it won't be anything tooooo bad.

So - when she offers a 'sit' I would immediately say 'sit' and reward her. I would stop any other 'sit' training for now. You can revisit it in a couple of months as a response to command/reward with clicker, but by attaching the word to what she has already done - and it has to be as quickly as you can say it - and then rewarding, you are still conditioning the 'sit' response.
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Sanna
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Re: Re-Training the "Sit" Command

Post by Sanna »

Sounds like you guys are making great progress, well done I'm so happy for you :D

My initial thought is that either she doesn't fully understand the cue, or she is reluctant because she associates the cue with something unpleasant? Unless she has hip problems or an injury that makes sitting uncomfortable of course, but if she sits a lot on her own accord that's probably not the case. Sitting often becomes a go-to behaviour that dogs offer when they're not entirely sure what you want, which is possibly why that's what she eventually gives you ('what does he want me to do..? I'll try bum on the floor, that seems to work for him a lot').
I think I'd work on other stuff instead for a while, take the pressure off and then retrain it from scratch using lure and/or capture- get the behaviour solid on a hand signal before adding the cue, I'd consider using a new cue and also work on really generalising the sit to lots of different positions (by your side, in front of you, away from you etc) and situations.
I know a dog with the same problem and training history for 'down' and the new owner retrained it with a new cue- he responds beautifully to 'blueberry!' now :lol:

Oops I cross posted with Nettle- she's the expert :D
btr323
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: Re-Training the "Sit" Command

Post by btr323 »

Sorry for the late reply! I could have sworn I posted my gratitude a few days ago--guess not :oops:
She is still growing and might there be a little soreness with her hips?
Nettle, I think that's spot on. I had to scale back the amount I'm feeding her after I noticed her starting to get a hitch in her gait after extended exercise (around the 20-30 minute range). Lowering her food intake seems to have done the trick, but I'm keeping my eye on her to see if this becomes an issue. (She sits on her own, and for extended periods of time, so I'm reasonably confident it's not a serious problem.) So yes, I could certainly see soreness being the cause.
I think I'd work on other stuff instead for a while, take the pressure off and then retrain it from scratch using lure and/or capture- get the behaviour solid on a hand signal before adding the cue, I'd consider using a new cue and also work on really generalising the sit to lots of different positions (by your side, in front of you, away from you etc) and situations.
I think that's definitely the plan of action here--I'm going to put "sit" on hold for the next couple months. [Edit: With the exception of when she offers it on her own accord, as per your suggestion, Nettle.] I'm reluctant to train a new cue, because (1) I don't think she has a bad association with it, based on her body language when I give the command, and (2) I think "sit" is a very useful emergency command for strangers. Gypsy is a very sweet dog, but she's also very large (and getting larger!) so ideally I'd like a stranger to be able to tell her to sit if she's bothering them. Generalizing the command is definitely something we'll be working on though--in a few months, that is--especially since she seems to understand "sit" to mean "walk in front of me, face me, and put your butt on the ground," haha.

On an unrelated point--and tell me if this should be a new post--Gypsy has gotten into the habit of licking people incessantly. It happens the most if she's sitting in my lap or underneath my chair, but she'll also do it as a greeting, when she wants attention, and as (I think) a sign of affection. I don't particularly mind it--she's done it since she was a baby, and I haven't tried to stop her--but some people certainly do, especially now that she's getting bigger, slobbery-er, and less cute. I'm thinking about trying the "timeout" technique that you can use for mouthing problems to get her to stop. I.e., whenever she licks me, leaving the room and closing the door behind me for about ten or fifteen seconds. Is that a bad idea? Is there something else I should try?

Much thanks!
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Nettle
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Re: Re-Training the "Sit" Command

Post by Nettle »

Dogs that lick 'too much' are releasing endorphins, so it's partly stress partly appeasement. In this case it's my opinion that 'time out' might increase neediness. So I'd set a schedule for licks - such as five slurps, but whatever you prefer - teamed with a marker word e.g. 'enough' and then you give her a toy (it means having toys handy at key licky places but they don't have to be real toys - a paper-stuffed cardboard roll will be just as good. Then she still has something in her mouth for chewing and endorphin release, but it isn't you or another human. If she then drops the toy and goes to lick THEN you can get up and walk off.

Hope that makes sense - do ask if not.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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