puppies
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: puppies
My first advice is sincere and comes from experience and the heart: don't get two. It's a nightmare. It's something I care strongly about because I've seen the effects first-hand. There is a lot of documentation on littermate syndrome, as well; raising two puppies together has a risk of making them co-dependent on each other. The family I nanny for got two puppies and they are not very well adjusted, despite efforts on my and their part to prevent littermate syndrome. One of the pair (now about 3 or 4 years old) recently had to stay overnight at the vets; neither slept or ate while the other was not there, and had to be constantly held by a human to stop them whining and screaming. It's also very common for dogs raised as a pair to have poor social skills and difficulty with training. Here are a few quotes from some very experienced trainers:
Firstly, read over our lovely Emmabeth's article about two puppies at once.
Now some of the most important bits from one great, if a bit lengthy, article:
And here's another good, fairly short article on littermate syndrome
It doesn't happen every time, but of the four sibling pairs I've seen and worked with for any extended period of time, it is present in all of them. The two mentioned earlier, the two lab mixes I dogsat for (and then helped the family deal with the surviving dog's deep depression after one was euthanized because of a developing spinal malformation), the two schnauzers in a class I attended who fought each other whenever they were within reach but then screamed in distress when separated by more than ten feet, and the two doodle puppies in another class who started blooming once their family threw themselves into the work required to keep, train, and play with them separately - but the owners regretted getting two at once and swore they'd never do so again, though by this point they loved both puppies a lot and didn't want to rehome one.
Now, for getting puppies to settle at night:
Firstly - will pup have been accustomed to crates by whomever has them before you? This will help tremendously if so. If not, we can go over the crate training process so you can start working on that day 1.
My preference, and the advice given by many others here, is to keep the puppy with you at night - in a tall cardboard box or crate or pen beside your bed. Even if you eventually plan to keep the puppy outside the room at night, it's hugely beneficial to start off with them beside you. It helps with house training, since you can instantly hear when they star fussing and need to go out (which an 8 week old puppy will in the middle of the night). It also gives them confidence - their whole world changes in a day; to go from living with their siblings and mom in a familiar house to living in a new place is distressing enough; separating them from any companionship overnight will only make them more unsettled.
So keeping them next to your bed, or sleeping on the couch next to their crate or pen or what-have-you, is the first tip. Secondly, make sure they've just pottied, have had enough playing/training for the day so they're tired, then have them in their crate/box/pen and go to bed. Young puppies sleep a lot, so this is likely to be all you'll need to do. If the pup cries at first, put a hand near them so they know you're there, reassure them a little, and that should stop the crying and help the puppy settle down. You may have to pet them to sleep - just quiet, gentle strokes until they settle down.
Let us know if you have any further questions or want clarification on anything
Firstly, read over our lovely Emmabeth's article about two puppies at once.
Now some of the most important bits from one great, if a bit lengthy, article:
SourceOver lunch, veterinarian and dog behaviorist Dr. Ian Dunbar and I discussed raising sibling dogs. “It’s a disaster waiting to happen for the littermates because they don’t get socialized to other dogs or people, let alone to their owners,” he said. Many owners assume that the dogs’ interactions with one another are adequate, “but when the puppies are five or six months old and meet an unfamiliar dog in a novel setting, they absolutely freak out.”
Dunbar points out that raising littermates necessitates training two puppies, which is particularly challenging when they’re essentially wearing blinders to all but each other. “It’s more than twice the work; it’s exponential. The two combine to produce levels of energy that we can barely measure. Tension develops in training and compliance as they squeeze the owner out of the relationship. They’re always living with an enormous distraction: each other.”
...
Those committed to raising a pair should ensure that the puppies spend significant portions of every day apart so each learns how to be alone—a key lesson in any well-thought-out puppy program. This means feeding, walking and training separately, with individual crates in different parts of the home. Even trips to puppy socials and the vet should be separate so they learn to incorporate these episodes into their respective psyches without being overly dependent on their littermate. This separate-but-equal arrangement is time consuming, exhausting and seems to defeat the original intent of acquiring siblings. Wilde notes that planned separations must begin immediately. “I’ve been called into homes where four-month-old siblings have been sleeping in the same crate for eight weeks and not purposefully separated by the owners, who had the best intentions but were unaware of littermate issues. Even getting the puppies to sleep in separate crates right next to each other is traumatic for them.”
Dunbar, too, is adamant that one of the key lessons a puppy must master is how to be content with being alone, which is all but impossible with two siblings. “Once we’ve done that, yes, he can live with other dogs and have free run of the house. But if you don’t teach puppies early on how to be alone, and especially with siblings who have always been together, it will be catastrophic when one dies.” Dunbar encourages multiple dog households— “I always like having three dogs”—but the timing, temperament and age that each enters the home is paramount.
Most people have never heard of littermate syndrome, finding out about it while researching their dogs’ problematic behaviors. Increasingly, however, trainers and behavior professionals recognize that the cons of adopting siblings far outweigh the pros. “The only advantage I can think of is a short-term gain of the puppies being less lonely in the first month of life,” says Dunbar. “Everything else is a loss.”
...
While siblings blessed with extraordinary genes and socialization-forward owners may avoid littermate syndrome, the consensus among canine professionals is that it’s not worth the risk. Most would encourage new owners to adopt a single puppy who suits their lifestyle and to focus on the training and socialization that strengthens the interspecies bond unique to humans and dogs. Once your puppy is a dog, by all means, get a second, since the two will be at completely different stages, and the older one may very well emerge as a great life teacher to the younger.
SourceIn order to maximize the use of their volunteer puppy raisers, one guide dog organization decided to try an experiment. Willing homes were given not one, but two puppies to raise, thereby doubling the number of puppies the guide dog organization could work with. Puppies born to these organizations are tested before being placed and are tracked throughout their growth and development. What the organization found was startling. Placing two puppies in the same household always caused one puppy to become temperamentally unsuitable for work, even when both puppies started off as perfect candidates...
Can littermate syndrome be prevented? Theoretically, yes, however it’s so difficult as to be nearly impossible in practice. Remember, even experienced guide dog puppy raisers aren’t expected to be able to prevent this issue from developing. At a bare minimum, the two puppies would need to be crated and cared for separately, including separate walks, training classes, and playtime with their owners. The puppies need to have more one-on-one time with their new owners than they have with each other, effectively doubling the work and negating any of the possible benefits (i.e. companionship) that they were adopted together for in the first place.
And here's another good, fairly short article on littermate syndrome
It doesn't happen every time, but of the four sibling pairs I've seen and worked with for any extended period of time, it is present in all of them. The two mentioned earlier, the two lab mixes I dogsat for (and then helped the family deal with the surviving dog's deep depression after one was euthanized because of a developing spinal malformation), the two schnauzers in a class I attended who fought each other whenever they were within reach but then screamed in distress when separated by more than ten feet, and the two doodle puppies in another class who started blooming once their family threw themselves into the work required to keep, train, and play with them separately - but the owners regretted getting two at once and swore they'd never do so again, though by this point they loved both puppies a lot and didn't want to rehome one.
Now, for getting puppies to settle at night:
Firstly - will pup have been accustomed to crates by whomever has them before you? This will help tremendously if so. If not, we can go over the crate training process so you can start working on that day 1.
My preference, and the advice given by many others here, is to keep the puppy with you at night - in a tall cardboard box or crate or pen beside your bed. Even if you eventually plan to keep the puppy outside the room at night, it's hugely beneficial to start off with them beside you. It helps with house training, since you can instantly hear when they star fussing and need to go out (which an 8 week old puppy will in the middle of the night). It also gives them confidence - their whole world changes in a day; to go from living with their siblings and mom in a familiar house to living in a new place is distressing enough; separating them from any companionship overnight will only make them more unsettled.
So keeping them next to your bed, or sleeping on the couch next to their crate or pen or what-have-you, is the first tip. Secondly, make sure they've just pottied, have had enough playing/training for the day so they're tired, then have them in their crate/box/pen and go to bed. Young puppies sleep a lot, so this is likely to be all you'll need to do. If the pup cries at first, put a hand near them so they know you're there, reassure them a little, and that should stop the crying and help the puppy settle down. You may have to pet them to sleep - just quiet, gentle strokes until they settle down.
Let us know if you have any further questions or want clarification on anything
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14
Re: puppies
Many thanks for your reply, I have twin daughters and fully intend to separate the pair as much as possible during their early development , I take on board the advice on the codependency, extra vigilance will be applied, take care Erica
Re: puppies
Hi there..
As Erica says.. don't get two.. I'd echo that....... don't get two don't get two don't get two don't get two don't get two ....
How old are your twins?
Because the reality is, separating the puppies for the next YEAR or so, except for training sessions when they are together, is going to mean your daughters are also going to be separated from each other and the rest of the family to some extent, for much of that time.
Now if they are teenagers that may not be an issue, if they are looking forward to having a puppy each but workign together on this and spending a lot of time together - thats going to be a MAJOR problem.
If they are really young - then thats going to mean that you'll need an adult per child/puppy combo, to work with them appropriately and now you realise its not just separating the puppies most of th etime, its actually splitting the whole family in half ... for probably a year.
So back to your original question.
The absolute best, problem free, ideal way to ensure that puppies are quiet at night, do not toilet on the floor indoors at night and grow up to become confident happy puppies..
Is for them to sleep in someones bedroom - one puppy per room - so each daughter has a puppy in their room.
Pop a decent sized box on the floor by their bed, pop a blanket in the bottom, and then you (or puppies owner) sleeps iwth a hand dangling in the box so puppy knows theres someone there.
ANY time the puppy stirs, then their owner gets out of bed, carries the puppy outside to the toilet spot outdoors, gives them a moment to do what they need and then takes them back inside, back in the box and back to bed - and they do this quietly and calmly without much fuss or chatter so hopefully the puppy doesn't even really wake up properly.
Within three nights, you should have a good idea of each puppies toilet schedule and habits regarding needing the toilet at night - you should then be able to tell the difference between 'I just woke up and im turning around and getting comfy again' type stirrings and the 'oohhh i need to potty' stirrings and be able to judge appropriately whether the pup needs to go out or not.
Within a week, you should have had time to crate train the puppy to the point where they are happy to stay in the crate overnight again, still in the bedroom next to the bed.
Within a few weeks of this you should be able to move the crates away from the beds.
And in all honestly, there they should stay until they are confident, house trained adults - at which point you can decide if you want them to stay in bedrooms or move them downstairs or whatever.
ALL the other ways of going about this risk something - put them together, they bond strongly to each other and this causes issues - separate them from each other AND humans, they yell, they toilet overnight, you build the foundations of separation anxiety and long term house training problems... so this really is the best most fool proof way.
As Erica says.. don't get two.. I'd echo that....... don't get two don't get two don't get two don't get two don't get two ....
How old are your twins?
Because the reality is, separating the puppies for the next YEAR or so, except for training sessions when they are together, is going to mean your daughters are also going to be separated from each other and the rest of the family to some extent, for much of that time.
Now if they are teenagers that may not be an issue, if they are looking forward to having a puppy each but workign together on this and spending a lot of time together - thats going to be a MAJOR problem.
If they are really young - then thats going to mean that you'll need an adult per child/puppy combo, to work with them appropriately and now you realise its not just separating the puppies most of th etime, its actually splitting the whole family in half ... for probably a year.
So back to your original question.
The absolute best, problem free, ideal way to ensure that puppies are quiet at night, do not toilet on the floor indoors at night and grow up to become confident happy puppies..
Is for them to sleep in someones bedroom - one puppy per room - so each daughter has a puppy in their room.
Pop a decent sized box on the floor by their bed, pop a blanket in the bottom, and then you (or puppies owner) sleeps iwth a hand dangling in the box so puppy knows theres someone there.
ANY time the puppy stirs, then their owner gets out of bed, carries the puppy outside to the toilet spot outdoors, gives them a moment to do what they need and then takes them back inside, back in the box and back to bed - and they do this quietly and calmly without much fuss or chatter so hopefully the puppy doesn't even really wake up properly.
Within three nights, you should have a good idea of each puppies toilet schedule and habits regarding needing the toilet at night - you should then be able to tell the difference between 'I just woke up and im turning around and getting comfy again' type stirrings and the 'oohhh i need to potty' stirrings and be able to judge appropriately whether the pup needs to go out or not.
Within a week, you should have had time to crate train the puppy to the point where they are happy to stay in the crate overnight again, still in the bedroom next to the bed.
Within a few weeks of this you should be able to move the crates away from the beds.
And in all honestly, there they should stay until they are confident, house trained adults - at which point you can decide if you want them to stay in bedrooms or move them downstairs or whatever.
ALL the other ways of going about this risk something - put them together, they bond strongly to each other and this causes issues - separate them from each other AND humans, they yell, they toilet overnight, you build the foundations of separation anxiety and long term house training problems... so this really is the best most fool proof way.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: puppies
Thankyou Emmabeth, I really appreciate your advice, our twins are coming up to 16, we are picking them up on Saturday, so not having them now isn't really an option, let the hard work begin then eh?
Take care.
Take care.
Re: puppies
it's ALWAYS an option until you've collected and paid for them. I also strongly suggest that you not get two at the same time. I think you'll really regret this decision
Re: puppies
16 is better than what I had in my mind... small children so PHEW! for that.
I really hope your girls put in the work - I hate to be doom filled (I am british we are all at it at the minute!), but have you considered that in just a few years your daughters will almost certainly be leaving home for college/university etc...
Make sure the work is put in right now so that in 2 years, 4 years time... you have two well behaved, well mannered young dogs who you can take anywhere, you can leave home, you can take one and leave the other and vice versa... because there is a high chance that these will become your dogs, or at least one of them will!
All that said, to balance things out a bit - I got my first 'my dog' at the age of 19. I was living alone in my first ever bed-sit (studio apartment? tiny pokey thing with a single room and then a kitchen and bathroom off it)... I was supposed to be attending college, my neighbours hated me and I was bullied..
I quit college for that dog - he couldn't be left home alone - I moved house for that dog, the neighbours bullied me so badly and would tease him adn cause him to bark which I eventually got on video tape and showed the local authority, and was rehoused as a result.
Long story short - that dog shaped my life, saved my life on at least one occasion, and he is the reason that today I am a canine behaviour consultant running my own business, respected by others in my field (well I hope so! lol) and am a person people turn to for help.
We lost that guy last year and wow, a dog can really change your life.
If I had listened to the people who told me I shouldn't get a dog, I should rehome the dog not quit college (popular music... i was never going to be a rockstar!) ... 'its just a dog'...
So things can work out - but we are saying and please believe us, this is one of the hardest ways to go about what you are doing ... and we will also be here for ANY and ALL help you require along the way, please do not hesitate to ask!
I really hope your girls put in the work - I hate to be doom filled (I am british we are all at it at the minute!), but have you considered that in just a few years your daughters will almost certainly be leaving home for college/university etc...
Make sure the work is put in right now so that in 2 years, 4 years time... you have two well behaved, well mannered young dogs who you can take anywhere, you can leave home, you can take one and leave the other and vice versa... because there is a high chance that these will become your dogs, or at least one of them will!
All that said, to balance things out a bit - I got my first 'my dog' at the age of 19. I was living alone in my first ever bed-sit (studio apartment? tiny pokey thing with a single room and then a kitchen and bathroom off it)... I was supposed to be attending college, my neighbours hated me and I was bullied..
I quit college for that dog - he couldn't be left home alone - I moved house for that dog, the neighbours bullied me so badly and would tease him adn cause him to bark which I eventually got on video tape and showed the local authority, and was rehoused as a result.
Long story short - that dog shaped my life, saved my life on at least one occasion, and he is the reason that today I am a canine behaviour consultant running my own business, respected by others in my field (well I hope so! lol) and am a person people turn to for help.
We lost that guy last year and wow, a dog can really change your life.
If I had listened to the people who told me I shouldn't get a dog, I should rehome the dog not quit college (popular music... i was never going to be a rockstar!) ... 'its just a dog'...
So things can work out - but we are saying and please believe us, this is one of the hardest ways to go about what you are doing ... and we will also be here for ANY and ALL help you require along the way, please do not hesitate to ask!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
