NEW RESCUE DOG LOVING AND THEN TURNED AGGRESSIVE HELP

[kwill151]

So, I adopted a dog about 2 1/2 weeks ago (well sep and i did) (my bf) and he's great he's lovey cuddly listens well sleeps in bed gives kisses everything... however, we had an incident the other nice which resulted in him being back at his foster home
He's snapped a few times and tried to bite sep (my bf) but never followed through with it.. Like he got scared or protective and just nipped. But yesterday he had a bone and sep told him to drop it, didn't even touch him and Remington (dog) freaked out, bit his shoe and wouldn't let go. He drug sep to the ground and bit his arm and hand. He only got off because sep threw a book at him and ran out the apartment. I locked him away in the room and then the foster mom came and got him.
We love him to pieces, more than I've ever loved an animal, and I'd love for him to be able to come back home. But 1. we're afraid now (especially sep) and 2. i don't know if that is trainable... we were fine with the nipping before because we could tell him no and tell him it was wrong after because he never followed through or carried on with the bite.. but after the full blown attack, i don't know if its possible.
and he never has had any issues with me either, like aggressive wise. but he always showed affection towards seppe, generally more affection than he showed me but he also showed him more aggression.

It's confusing too because we've pulled food out of his mouth, and told him to drop stuff before and he listens automatically... but then he jsut snapped
HELP!
We love this dog so much, he was like our child. But we are first time dog owners and don't know what to do after this.



Catahoula Leaopord Dog
around 70 pounds
1-2 years old
He was a stray

[JudyN]

I'm so sorry your BF got bitten - was he badly hurt? Is Remington back with you now, or with the foster?

This is something you really can work on, though management may always play a part. First, it is now recommended that you never take food from a dog. In a dog's eyes, possession is 10/10ths of the law, and by taking food off him in the past, you have shown him that he has to fight to keep hold of something as high value as a bone. He needs to know either that if he gives up something to you he will get something even better (trading), or (as there's nothing higher value than a bone) he doesn't have to worry that you'll take it.

My dog is a resource guarder and when he was younger he would turn aggressive if we just looked at him when he had something high value. Despite a lot of work and a few behaviourists, I still would not be able to take food off him. But it's not a problem, because we are very careful to ensure he doesn't get hold of food he might have, and only give him bones that he can eat in a couple of minutes (chicken carcasses).

There's much more on how you can work on this here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18074 Have a read through, and ask if you have any questions.

Also, you say he's snapped on other occasions - could you describe exactly the circumstances, what you had done just before, and how you reacted afterwards? Generally, 'telling him off' after the event isn't helpful, and can make the bebhaviour worse - what you need to do is work out why he felt the need to snap and either to avoid the situation or work out a way to stop him feeling anxious about it.

Are there any children in the house? If so, you will have to consider whether it's possible to ensure that they don't do anything that might make him snap at them.

[kwill151]

Hi Judy!
It was pretty bad... He had converse on thankfully or his foot would've been destroyed.. But he did bite riht through the entire shoe. His hand has 3-4 puncture wounds but the doc said he'd be okay.

The first incident was Remington jumped up on the coffee table and Giuseppe just pushed him off, hardly any force, not agressive, just getting him down before he knocked down the food and drinks. He snapped, then immediately looked remourseful, we told him no, bad dog, not bite, and then made him go lay down. Within 5 mins we called him back over and gave him hugs and ksises because he looked really sad and sorry.

The next was I was sitting on the bed, I was sick, and Giuseppe was blotting my neck with a cold cloth, reaching over Remington, and then remington just bit his hand... He then got really close to me and wouldnve leave my side and wouldnt let sep by me. You could see he was protecting me.

When I say taken food from him I mean that he has gotten ahold of things he should'nt and when we say drop it, he listens. But this time with the bone seppe said drop it, all verbal, no physical and he just flipped...


We are first time pet owners on our own, we're only 20. We love him to death, and would love to have him return. (He's at the foster home he was at before) but Giuseppe is very afraid of him now... Being that it was attack just from speaking to him is very frightening. We do not know where to go from here. Also, no kids, but he is great around kids, we take him to our families house once a week where he plays with other dogs and kids.

Thanks!

[JudyN]

Believe me, I know just how you are feeling because that was the position I was in. I once just looked at Jasper when he had a stolen pair of underpants and he went for me. He also once bit OH badly when OH was trying to stop him swallowing a bread roll which was still in a plastic bag.

The other incidents you mentioned are also the sort of thing Jasper would - even now - do. He doesn't like to be pushed, so if he is somewhere I don't want him to be, I will ask him to get off, leave the room, etc., and just about every time he does, like a lamb. When he's in public I keep him muzzled, just in case (this may or may not be necessary with Remington, but Jasper accepts it as happily as I accept having to wear shoes). The other day someone 'helpfully' grabbed his collar when I wanted to put him on lead, and he was not impressed I said to him after that if it would be rude to do it to me (e.g. grabbing and shoving), he shouldn't do it to my dog because he will also see it as rude.

Again, if Remington was on your bed (just about the highest-value place in the world) and next to you (one of the two most important people in the world), this is a high-emotion situation for him, and he may have thought your OH was going to move him, or was interfering with you.

You can live with, and have a great bond with, a dog who reacts in this way. In fact I think the bond can be stronger as you have to really look inside your dog's mind, understand him, and demonstrate that he can trust you. Telling him off for biting won't help, and you may well suppress his response so you don't realise how he's struggling to control himself until he absolutely explodes. In particular, never punish him in any way for growling - let him tell you when he's not comfortable.

My dog is unusual in that he still is capable of this behaviour, but if you can change your thinking about how to handle Remington and avoid any situation where he might react, he will probably mellow a lot with age and as he learns he can trust you. You may have to make adjustments such as not allowing him on the bed if one of you are already there. Every time he reacts you will need to rethink your strategy so he isn't put in that position again. And you will want to do lots of work on 'drop' and 'leave' where he gets really great rewards, and also with commands like 'off' (e.g. the bed), 'out of here' (leave this room) or 'shift your bum' (when he's standing in a doorway and you don't want to shove him ) - all done in the same positive way as a fun trick, with rewards as if he's just got into MENSA, not a stern 'command'.

Of course, he might turn a corner and become much easier - as I said, my dog was quite a bad case! Whether you want to launch on this journey is up to you, and it would be understandable if you wanted to find an easier first dog. But if you do decide to have another go with Remington, we will be here to help you however we can

Oh, just checking back - taking into account your age, you will also need shedloads of patience as it's so important to stay calm. I think it helped me that I have two grown-up sons who had gone through the teenage hormonal thing

[Shalista]

In all fairness to a lot of what JudyN is suggesting would be a pretty good idea even with a dog that DOESN'T react that way. Many dogs are unhappy about people in their space or things being taken from their mouths (even when humans have very good reasons fo these things) There are just less dire consequences if you do it wrong. Even if you decide against keeping Remington this might be good advice going forward.

[kwill151]

Hi Judy again!

So some questions to clarify....

So if he has something and we need him to not have it, what should we say?
Or if he's on the bed and we want him down.. what do we do?
If we're hugging and he doesn't like it... do we stop?
What if he turns on sep again and he bites just once... how do we let him know that that is wrong?
What if he turns on sep again and he does the attacking where we couldn't get him off?
How does my boyfriend become unafraid? Because after being on the ground unable to get up because Remington was on top biting him, he is terrified...

I just am so nervous about moving forward, but we want him so bad. We adored him! It broke our hearts to pieces watching him leave.

Do you think we could keep him?

[Shalista]

So if he has something and we need him to not have it, what should we say?
Or if he's on the bed and we want him down.. what do we do?
If we're hugging and he doesn't like it... do we stop?
What if he turns on sep again and he bites just once... how do we let him know that that is wrong?
What if he turns on sep again and he does the attacking where we couldn't get him off?
How does my boyfriend become unafraid? Because after being on the ground unable to get up because Remington was on top biting him, he is terrified...

I'm not Judy but just to reiterate some things she said. You're going to have to teach him ques. If he has something in his mouth and you want him to drop it you will have to have taught him the drop it que. Then you can just tell him to drop it and he will give it to you rather then you reaching into his mouth to take it. Same with the bed. You can teach him an 'off' que and practice it diligently before it ever comes to the point where you need him off the bed. The idea is to give him the tools to do what you SAY rather than you having to manually reach into his mouth or shove him away.

Some ques that might be helpful to work on if you decide to keep him:
"Leave it" (don't touch that thing)
"Drop it" (spit out what's in your mouth)
"Off" (get off the surface you're on (couch/bed/chair/table/counter))
(I'd talk to the foster, they might have already started working on some of these)

as to the attacking, ideally you would never let him get to the point where he feels he has to attack. This would mean listening to him if he growls and not trying to push him or take things from him. As his trust in you grows he may (as Judy said) become more tolerant of handling but as of right now it doesn't sound like he's there yet.

Your boyfriend has every right to be terrified. I would be too! You'll need to wait for an expert to get back to you on that one!

[kwill151]

Hi! Thanks for the advice!
Unfortunately... He knows all of those commands. That's why we're so confused and turned to help and advice.

When he attacked, there was nothing physical.. Giuseppe told him to drop it because on any other day we say drop the toy or drop the sock and he drops it with no issue. He knows lay down and off the bed and he generally listens. But now we're afraid that from verbal commands he'll become afraid and attack again....

It was 100% verbal that provoked him.

[JudyN]

It's important to stress that I'm not an expert, and my knowledge is based on what I've learnt with my dog, but this is my take:

So if he has something and we need him to not have it, what should we say?

Being facetious, I'm tempted to say 'Oh well, we can buy another one' By showing that you want something off him, you instantly convey to him that it is high value and he needs to hang on to it. For now, I'd try distraction - wave a toy at him, throw a ball, go into the kitchen, open & shut the fridge door and call him. If what he has could be dangereous to him, say a sharp knife or something harmful if swallowed, it will be more dangerous if he thinks he needs to hang on to it tight or swallow it quickly. It's much better to act as if it's something boring that you're not interested in. Then, of course, you work on trading, swapping, etc., which are described in the link I gave earlier.

Or if he's on the bed and we want him down.. what do we do?

Call him from a distance, and reward with a treat and/or game. Then work on teaching 'off'.

If we're hugging and he doesn't like it... do we stop?

Yes, definitely. If someone was hugging me and I didn't like it I'd be tempted to bite them!

What if he turns on sep again and he bites just once... how do we let him know that that is wrong?

It's not so much a case of teaching him that biting is wrong, but that he doesn't need to bite. Dogs, like all animals, prefer not to bite because it is risky for themselved - they would prefer to settle things without aggression if they can. If he isn't showing warning signs of biting, it may be that he has been punished for growling in the past. It would be worth you learning how to read dog body language as you may notice signs of tension and be able to remove what's upsetting him. It's very tempting to want to be able to tell the dog he shouldn't bite, but it's often just not effective.

What if he turns on sep again and he does the attacking where we couldn't get him off?

To be honest, I'm not sure - I've not had experience of a prolonged attack and I generally just turned away so there weren't so many easily grabbable bits.

How does my boyfriend become unafraid? Because after being on the ground unable to get up because Remington was on top biting him, he is terrified...

That's a difficult one. There will be times when it doesn't go quite right. I'm confident now that I can react instinctively if Jasper might have a 'moment', but it takes time. And Remington will sense your BF's fear which will make him anxious.

Do you think we could keep him?

I think if you are going to, you should try to find a good positive behaviourist - if we let you know where you live, we may be able to help with that (though I'm UK based and I think you're in the US). A behaviourist will be able to observe Remington's body language and yours, and may be able to tell if this is a dog who will be fine once you know how to avoid the triggers, or one that is generally likely to react. The rescue he came from may also offer back-up help, though unfortunately their advice may be based on the outdated dominance school. It might also be useful to speak to the fosterer to see if they've had similar problems with him.

As my husband has just pointed out to me, at your age you probably don't want a settled, routine calm life, and if this dog is naturally anxious, that might be what he needs. Also, you may want to have children at some point. In all honesty, if I had young children I wouldn't have kept Jasper, even if the alternative was euthanasia because the risk would have been too great.

If you take Remington back you might quickly find that through management and avoiding triggers you are able to handle him confidently and he will learn he can trust you and not need to bite. Maturity will make a big difference too - after all, he is an adolescent right now. On the other hand, you might make mistakes, he might develop more triggers, and you and/or your BF may get badly bitten again.

[kwill151]

Thank you!!
Ps. I meant Giuseppe and I hugging, Remington doesn't like when we hug he gets really anxious and tends to jump in our backs...

Also, I'm in Michigan, United States.


Thank you for a lol your help,
I'm honestly not quite sure where to go from here because I'm more interested in correcting and fixing the issue rather than just living with it and working around it.
I love him to pieces but i don't know if that's something we can handle.

[JudyN]

Ps. I meant Giuseppe and I hugging, Remington doesn't like when we hug he gets really anxious and tends to jump in our backs...

Ah, sorry! It's not a problem we've had, but it is common so maybe others can advise.

I'm honestly not quite sure where to go from here because I'm more interested in correcting and fixing the issue rather than just living with it and working around it.

Working around and managing the issue is also the best way of starting to 'fix' it. Your dog can relax, he won't be suspicious whenever he has something he shouldn't, and then you work on getting him into the habit of giving you things. My dog often presents me with socks now, and will bring me pretty much anything that isn't food if he's asked. And as Shalista says, we would never advise taking food off any dog, or pushing a dog off a table or bed anyway.

It's not an easy decision, but try to let your head rule your heart. It would be a shame for him if you took him on, realised you couldn't cope with the task, and he had to go back in rescue again.

[mansbestfriend]

Hi. I agree with the advice above but suggest the dog should return to the rescue for the benefit of the dog. Tell them everything you did with the Catahoula, and ask the rescue to help select a more appropriate dog for your circumstances, wants, demands, etc in a dog.

It's my opinion that this forum, and entire positively.com website, is devoted to helping owners to understand their dogs better, so they can help dogs have a better life using appropriate management and positive (IE: Positive Reinforcement type) meathods.

Note: I have two great dogs. I've been bitten by both of them. Both times the dog was in a high stress situation, and it was my fault for behaving in a way (IE: invasion of personal space) that made them feel overwhelmed and/or threatened in that moment.

Good luck.

[Nettle]

Gah! I typed out a long response and it timed out!!!!!

You have a PhD dog and you have just started kindergarten. Forget about love, which is all about you, and think of the dog, which wants to feel safe. We have a list of great books to help you understand your dog, so have a look - meanwhile I recommend Ali Brown's Scaredy Dog.


Hugging, whether between people or people trying to hug dogs, scares the bejasus out of them. So save your hugs for a private place, and understand your dog is reactive because to him, his people are threatening each other.


IF you decide to keep him - and if you intend having children I recommend you rehome him - this means years of work, which will never truly be finished. IF you are up for that, we can help you loads.