Pointer Problems

[mrsh]

Hello All

I am new to the forum and am having some problems with an 8 month old male English Pointer, and wondered whether anyone can help?

He is a lovely boy and we have taken him to obedience classes from the age of 3.5 months and thought we were doing fine. However recently his behaviour has become out of control specifically:

Jumping up at guests who visit our house. He is 28kg so able to knock people over if we are not careful. We have started introducing the 'mat' and encouraging him to go there when the doorbell rings. I also have him on a lead when people arrive but he is straining and pulling to get to visitors and when I let him back off the lead, he starts jumping up again. Its as if he is so excited, he cannot help himself.

Visitors are unable to sit on our sofa without him jumping up at them. I give him treats/toys/things to do when we have visitors, but the moment he gets fed up with these, he is back to jumping up again. So he ends up back in his crate, something I don't want to happen, as I feel it is unfair to him to be constantly stuck in there.

He will not come back when called, especially when he sees another dog/person, he runs straight up to them and ignores us. We have gone back to the basics with this one, and have started doing recalls in the house/garden for now, but I am worried that he is not getting the off lead outdoor exercise he needs. He gets 4 walks a day on the lead when we practice heel work and 'waits', 'sits' and 'stays' outdoors (when he will concentrate) and is probably getting about 2 hours in total of this a day - is this enough exercise?

He lunges at other dogs when on lead/harness. I have started to introduce the clicking/treating (the clicker has really helped with loose lead walking) when we see a dog/person in the distance although sometimes he is not interested in me at all and seems deaf to the clicker. I have just bought an Easy Fit harness, I was using a Halti harness before.

I am trying to do lots of brain games to keep him occupied in the house and he is currently doing a clicker class once a week where he is learning tricks, to keep his brain occupied as much as possible (although he doesn't seem too interested and would rather sniff around the training hall). I am going to try to set a scent trail for him, to appeal to his constant sniffing instincts, and see how he responds to that.

Some general info - he is crate trained and goes to his crate no problem when asked. He goes to bed at 10 every night and we dont hear a peep from him until 7.30 (if I get him up earlier, he is very grumpy and wont get up!)

He is on Hills dry food for large breed puppy. He is house trained and although going through a chewing stage, has not been overly destructive in the house. He is not castrated.

We wanted this breed as we have known two other pointers who were charming and well mannered dogs, although he is our first. We wanted to distance run and do hill walking with him when he is old enough but at the moment, I dont see a day when this is going to happen and am really worried that we are not going to be able to give him the life we wanted to, because of these issues. I know he is a teenager but are all of these issues resolvable? I feel like I am at my wits end with him and lie awake at night worrying that he will be impolite and on a lead for the rest of his life, am I being overdramatic? My OH wants to enrol him on a residential 'boot camp' where he is sent away to be trained for 2-3 weeks although I am very dubious about this, as I dont see how it helps us to bond with him, and can I ever be sure about the treatment he will receive there? I am using positive training methods only and want to keep it that way.

Any advice would be most welcome and thank you so much for reading this.

[Nettle]

Hi and welcome. I'll try to keep this short so not to overwhelm you. Others will be along soon to add help.


You have a perfectly normal teenage dog. They are horrors until they finish growing up. It's good that he is still entire, because he will have the correct hormone influences to become a healthy adult. If you had him castrated now, you would fix him into permanent teens You have a rough ride ahead but all of us have been there, it does get easier, and you will have the lovely dog you dreamed of when he finishes maturing at about 2.


You are quite right to avoid 'boot camp' for the reasons you say and a few more (details on request).

You are also doing a great job bringing him up, although it may not fee like that right now.

Briefly - visitors - he stays on the lead through the whole visit. This isn't for ever - it is for now. He can greet a visitor IF he stays calm - the minute a foot leaves the floor, you turn him away by getting between him and the visitor and pushing with your leg while holding him on a short lead. Don't say anything. They learn really fast that 'four on the floor' gets a fuss, while trying to jump up gets him taken away. Brief your visitors to ignore him unless he has 'four on the floor' and not to squeal or flap. If they can't be trusted to keep calm and aloof, then he stays on the lead and sits by you and away from them. (If they can't be trusted to not speak to him or make eye contact, he has to go in another room with something nice to do, like a stuffed kong). Assuming visitors do as you ask, you sit and chat while holding your dog on a bed or blanket nice and comfy beside you on the floor. So he learns visitors are not squeaky toys, but if he rests nicely beside you, he will get a reward now and then, and sometimes will go with you to see the seated visitor. Expect him at first to get lively when the visitor stands up to leave.

Scent trailing will be great for him, and will tire him out nicely. See our Exercise the Mind pinned thread for more ideas. Pointers find mind work quite hard, so make things easy for him in the beginning.

Recall - it goes to nuts with many young dogs. Exercise on a long line (details on request) like a horse lunge line while you are rebuilding your recall. The more dogs get to practice unwanted behaviour the better they get at it, and at the moment the rest of the world is much more interesting, so he has to re-learn that he visits it under control and by your leave.

Trying to lunge at other dogs - keep him at the far side of you from the other dog, and march past quickly. Do the click and treat thing once he is past and relaxed and looking at you. Space is important to dogs, so as soon as he gets That Look, put some space, a lot if necessary, between you and the other dog. Don't wait for things to get lively.

At home make sure nobody plays games with him that make him excited - so no rough and tumble or anything that might encourage him to jump and grab.

I'll stop here for now, as it's a lot of information - and there is more to come.

[mrsh]

Oh Nettle, thank you so much for this. Hearing that this is normal for a teenager is really reassuring. I cant find a lot written about English Pointers, but I wondered whether adolescence was the same for this breed, so it is reassuring to hear what you think. I get a lot of 'advice' from people about using choke chains and shock collars, as this seems to be the way to bring a gun dog up in my area (we live near a lot of farm land and there are lot of spaniels and similar breeds around here, although no pointers).

It feels like I am putting in a lot of effort but not seeing any reward for it, so it leaves me thinking, 'Will it ever work?' 'What if I am doing it wrong?'

My particular worry is the recall; would you expect to start seeing results and improvement with this by going back to basics, or is this something that will come with age, once he matures (which seems like a long time away ) I suppose what I am asking is, is he still learning whilst being a teenager? It feels like he cant concentrate on anything at the moment.

Thank you for your advice and support.

[JudyN]

I agree with Nettle, he sounds absolutely normal - I also spent sleepless nights despairing about my adolescent. Some days OH would come home from work, ask me how he'd been that day, and I'd burst into tears Your pointer absolutely is still learning, even if it doesn't feel like it. Think about what adolescent children can be like - they go off the rails, don't seem to listen to anything you say and show spectacularly bad manners, but if shown consistent love and guidance they do get there in the end (and if you used the equivalent of a prong collar on them it would go very badly).

Just a few things I'd add - is there any enclosed space you could let him off lead while working on recall, such as a tennis court? Obviously an enclosed space somewhere with other dogs wouldn't work right now. If you use a long line, make sure it's attached to his harness, not collar. Some people find they can leave the long line to trail and can pick it up when they want to, but this depends on whether he's going to go out of range before you can pick it up. And depending on where you walk, it can get caught up on pushes etc.

I really like impulse control exercises - see the link in this thread (which also contains a link to the exercise your dog's mind thread): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11503 They help the dog learn to control what he would like to do and learn to cope with a degree of frustration. My dog couldn't cope with much frustration at all when he was young and threw awful tantrums, but it was great when I finally saw him think twice about doing something I didn't want him to do, and then look at me for a treat as a reward for 'not being naughty'.

Keep up the brain training and games inside the house as well as outside - the more he realises that you are the source of all good things like fun, food and praise/fuss, the more he will focus on you in preference to other dogs (eventually ).

The pointers I've met have been very sensitive dogs, so it's extra-important to avoid any harsh methods.

One final point - Hills Science Diet isn't now generally regarded as being a good food (vets often stock and recommend it but vets learn very little about dog nutrition when they train). There's a review of it here: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food- ... puppy-dry/ Changing his diet certainly won't change him into an angel overnight, but if you wanted to research different choices, there's plenty of info on that website - or we can advise.

[katej215]

hey there..

just wanted to also say it sounds like you are doing a great job with your teenager...just hang in there!!

Thinking back to when my girl was a teenager (she went from angel to nightmare overnight) one of the biggest lessons learned for me is not letting her practice unwanted behaviours. So for example not putting her back on a long line when her recall disappeared just meant the poor recall problem dragged on way longer than it needed to, as i was not only battling with nature (ie: teenage hormones and development) but letting her practice unwanted behaviuors made it all the more difficult to extinguish them...those neural pathways which are responsible for her doing x or y remained strong. As soon as we manage our dogs, so that they start practicing new 'wanted' behaviuors, those original pathways will start to fade over time and be replaced with new behavioural response pathways . (just like any habit right?) Looking back now it seemed like she hit adulthood and suddenly turned back into an angel, no longer feeling the need to greet everyone and everything within a half mile radius!

I would also reiterate what others have said on activities....the more short sessions you can do, either clicker training or nosework or any other mental activity the greater your bond with each other will become and the happier and more confident your dog will be.

Genuine quick fix solutions in life are rare, if they exist at all. Dog ownership is no exception. You are right to be wary of doggy boot camp. No modern day trainer whose methods are based upon how animals actually learn would be running or advocating such sessions.

Look forward to hearing an update as to how you are getting on with him

[Erica]

Yep, normal teenage dog. I third/fourth the "don't do the boot camp" idea. The dog I knew who had gone to one returned, in his owner's words, "with a broken soul." He was constantly tense and likely to startle and snap if you reached towards his neck. They're not a good idea.

It can feel like you're taking huge steps back in training, but you just have to accept it and work with the level your dog is at that day. Eventually they'll remember what they'd learned! My pup's recall around other dogs disappeared around the same time your pup's did, it seems. The biggest problem was with our neighbor's dogs, who have only a shock-collar fence (which doesn't keep the dogs in the yard), and we don't have any sort of fence. Whenever the neighbor's dogs were out, Delta would try to visit them. So, for a while, I only took him outside on leash. He would be allowed off-leash if the neighbor's dogs weren't outside, because then his recall was fine.

But after a few months, life happened and we were outside off-leash when the neighbor's dogs were let out. Delta looked at them, looked at me, and came trotting over to me! Big rewards, game of fetch, treats, etc. Now he's 99% for recalls when they're outside, even if they're ten feet away from him and charging around, barking like mad, inviting him to play.

So - it takes time, and patience, and you can't rush it. But you'll get there in the end!

Just a word on the EasyWalk harness - if it works out for you, that's great, but if it doesn't, that's pretty normal. They're not the best design and often chafe the dog's armpits. If you find it's not helping, try a standard "roman" or "H" harness - like this one (ignore the funny collar). Most have a ring on the front that you can clip the lead to. It's not the technical use for it, but it works! Two leashes or a double-ended leash, one on the front of the chest and one on the back, gives you a lot of leverage in my experience. The Perfect Fit harness is the best harness I've seen, for walking, but a normal harness (example) works fine.

[mrsh]

Thank you all so much for your support. Yesterday was hard and I must confess I did shed a few tears, wondering where I am going wrong. I have read about adolescence but when it is actually happening, it is a shock.

JudyN, thanks for posting the list of resources - I will have a read of those and also the article on nutrition.

Katej215, I am so glad you mentioned the 'practicing of unwanted behaviours' issue - I have tried to stop this before he gets too used to just doing his own thing. However, there are so many dogs around here who seem to do just that, with owners who think its fine for their dogs to run right up to us, and then they are unable to recall them back again.I was beginning to wonder whether it was just me who was looking for perfection, but I just cant stand the thought of having a dog who is out of control and thinks he can just run off and cavort around the countryside on his own terms

Erica, I had a lump in my throat when you used the phrase about the dog 'with a broken soul'. I cant bear the thought of my boy being away with someone I dont know, practicing techniques that might be harmful. I feel I already have a connection with him and I feel excited about developing our bond further, so sending him away would just seem wrong.

He is a lovely boy and I feel we are on a long journey and I need to come to terms with this and be patient. I will keep working with him and keep the faith that it will work out in the end. It is so good to have your support as I was feeling rather lonely! I am sure I will be back and perhaps ultimately I can support others going through the same thing

Erica - what a cutie! Yes, I was a bit worried about the Perfect Fit as it does seem to be quite snug under his arms, and he doesnt have a lot of fur there anyway. What is the basic green harness Delta is wearing in the car? This looks quite minimal and might be a good back up for my boy.

[Erica]

That's a hemp harness from Planet Dog. I don't know whether you're in the UK or US; I think Planet Dog is only in the US. It's a nice harness, very soft in both materials though the fuzzy parts are obviously even softer than the outside material. Great for dogs with short hair; not so great for dogs with long hair that can mat easily. We passed it on to my sister's staffy once I got sick of brushing Delta after every. single. walk. It works great for the staffy, though!

Even if you can't find that exact harness, if you look through a few pet stores I'm sure you'll find something. The roman style harness is very common and popular; I'd be surprised if a decent-sized pet store didn't have one!

[Fundog]

I just have a couple of questions for you: is your pointer "field bred" or "bench bred"? In other words, does he appear to be interested in birds, squirrels, etc? Have you noticed he tends to zig-zag on the lead a bit when he's sniffing?

I'm asking because pointers are gun dogs (also referred to as "bird dogs"), traditionally bred for hunting small game. (That might give you some more ideas for fun activities to do with him.) I have bird dogs, one springer spaniel and one English Setter. They are both gun shy, so we don't actually hunt per se, but one thing I like to do with them is to stalk birds, then we all run up and flush them together. It gives my dogs the thrill they are seeking, without actually hurting anyone or anything. My setter is especially zig-zaggy on lead, wanting to stuff her head into every brush we pass (I live in kind of a mountainous desert region, with lots of sage brush and tall grasses), looking for ground dwelling birds, rabbits, mice, gophers, etc. And I try to let her do that as much as she wants, to some extent.

As the others were saying-- doggy boot camp-- bad idea, especially if it's one that specializes in gun dogs. Gun dog trainers are not well known for positive methods, in fact, there are only a couple in the U.S. Most gun dog training methods involve shock collars, ear pinching, lip pinching, etc.

[mrsh]

Hi Fundog, yes he is VERY interested in sticking his nose into bushes and is a keen bird watcher! He is also very zig zag when we walk. So do you think there are some particular games he might like? I wasnt sure whether stalking birds was something I should be encouraging or not as he is already very distracted by litter, bikes, cars, dustbins, molehills....I am sure you get the picture

[Ari_RR]

Yep! Totally normal teenager, lucky to have "positive" humans

I agree with everyone / everything. Just a couple of points :
Trainers... Boot camp would be a 100% no go for me. But whichever approach you take involving trainers (classes, or 1-1), keep in mind that trainer's job is to train you to train the dog. You are the student there, not the dog. You can learn almost as much by observing a good class without your dog, as by having him there.

Frustration during adolescence....I suspect that in many cases a good deal of frustration comes from real or perceived reaction from other humans. I would try not to overreact to that. Yeah, sure, we want our dogs to keep all four paws on the floor when greeting visitors. But it's a process to get there. And if in the meantime someone gets jumped on - hey, this is not the end of the world, really, we humans some times need to chill out a bit too

If possible, I would have play dates with known dogs, with whom he gets along well, rather than a lot of interactions with random dogs. He may be pushing and testing and provoking others (which is also normal). Him being intact is good for him, but in some cases it can lead to increased tension in other males, and coupled with his adolescent antics may trigger a rather nasty reaction.

All in all - hang in there, stay the course, and I can promise you one thing - as unbelievable as it may sound, one day soon you will hear other dog owners saying to their dogs "why can't you be as well behaved as that pointer over there?". This will make you very proud of your boy!

Good luck

[Shalista]

Not to be debby downer here but I'm just going to caution not to pin TO many hopes on the mellowing with age. I got my dog at 8 months and he's going to be 2 in a few days. Definitely calmer and listens better but still a spaz (with alot of the issues you were talking about actually.) So yeah, there is hope as they age, just don't go easy on the training cause he might calm at 2.

[Fundog]

Yep, definitely re-direct his attention onto "safe" things like small furries hiding in bushes, rather than bikes and cars, lol. When my English Setter came to us, we discovered her to be a car chaser! So to help extinguish that behavior, I started redirecting her into the weeds, and away from the side of the road whenever cars and trucks passed. It helped immensely. She doesn't react to cars and trucks anymore.

You can get some pheasant or rabbit scent, or scent of other game, from your local outdoor sporting goods store, or online. You can lay scent trails with it, impregnate certain toys with it, etc.

If you don't plan to actually hunt (with a gun) with him, you can still "pretend hunt." Condition him to the scents of various small game, and take him out tracking, finding, flushing, and once he has a reliable recall off lead-- chasing. It is very satisfying to the dog, and can be rather exciting for you as well-- I find it quite exhilarating!

You have a Pointer, so I'm sure you've noticed he goes "on point" --- locks up and becomes motionless when he sees or smells small animals-- You can praise him for that behavior ("Good point"), and allow him to hold his point for a few minutes before creeping forward to flush the creature. If you are "hunting" on lead, be sure to praise him after flushing so he still feels the reward of hunting, and does not get frustrated. For dogs that actually hunt under a gun, the reward is retrieving the game. You can also have a throw toy impregnated with scent to throw for him after flushing during a "hunt."

And of course, it is just fun to go hiking with your gun dog in wilderness areas too. There is so much scent to track and find out there! My spaniel is great off lead, and stays close, as she was bred to do, but I have to keep my setter on lead at all times, as she was apparently bred for hunting with an ATV or a horse, and ranges out too far. I can't keep up with her, as she can run out of earshot in the blink of an eye. She will always come back, but I need to be prepared to wait a long time-- even a couple of hours. But this kind of activity is enough to tire her out, even on lead, because it is both mental and physical.

Well, that's enough to get you started, and to give you some ideas. Have fun, and let your dog show you the outdoors from a different point of view.

[Nettle]

A little addition on the 'finding birds in bushes' which is a great thing for you and your dog to do together - working pointers find, go on point to hold the bird still, flush on command, and STOP. You do not want a dog that flushes and chases, so build on the inborn desire to flush and STOP by bringing the 'flush' under command. That is - find the bird, point, hold the point (not too long at first, but these guys are built to hold point for quite some time) YOU say 'flush' dog dives in to flush and STOP. Make that stop last several seconds so it is a definite stop. Then reward with a treat, so he has several rewards - find, flush, treat. Not chase.

He will think you are a goddess.

[mrsh]

Thank you all for your kind words.

Shalista, I am viewing training as a life long activity and wouldnt think of slacking off with it, it seems to have become a way of life . I know there are no guarantees that at 2 he will be transformed, but I would never forgive myself if I didnt keep trying, so thank you for your advice.

Ari_RR, thank you for your sensible advice, yes I agree, sometimes I worry about what others might be thinking about me and my boy and thats where the frustration comes from. When he is lunging and jumping up etc, I worry that people think that I havent spent any time training him, as nothing could be further from the truth. I suppose I have to develop a thick skin and not worry about what others might/might not be thinking.

Fundog, thanks for those tips, I will certainly give them a go. I set a scent trail this morning in the garden although he sniffed about for approx one minute and then went off to dig the borders I think I need to rethink this one!

I certainly feel reassured although still very stressed ha ha. In the meantime, Pointer Boy sleeps in his crate, oblivious....

P.S. Nettle; 'he will think you are a goddess'..... in that case will follow your advice IMMEDIATELY!!