Puppy still biting badly at 7 months

[MaeFlowers]

First off, I know puppies bite. I know, it's natural, normal, healthy all that stuff. But this isn't normal healthy puppy biting.

Ok, so Daisy is now 7 months old, with a full set of adult teeth on her. She is definitely some sort of corgi cross and she has pretty much reached her adult size. She still spends most of her time biting me, wherever she can reach (which is fairly high, think crotch height *ow*). I am to the point where I am thinking about purchasing her a basket muzzle to wear when we are spending time together, as nothing else seems to be working, and I can't handle the biting anymore. This morning when I went to pick her up to put her outside, she jumped up and bit me in the mouth, drawing blood.

I have tried leaving the room when she gets bitey - she just waits for me to come back and jumps on me again.
I have tried going still and ignoring her - she lunges at my face if she can, or just bites more if she can't reach it.
I have tried giving her time outs - she just goes right back to it when I let her back in the room.
I have tried scruffing her with a firm no - doesn't make a difference.
I have tried gently muzzling her with my fingers and telling her no firmly (which I read somewhere as a last resort that works on -all- difficult biters HA!) - no difference.
I have tried giving her a toy or treat as a replacement - works until I let go of it, at which point she goes for me again (I can't spend all my time holding something for her to bite )
I have tried the 'make a pained noise like she's hurting me' - she gets worse. Didn't try that one too many times.

Am I missing another option here? I am at my wits end. Had a nice cry this morning after she bit me and I don't know what else to do, short of trying to muzzle idea when she is biting. Obviously, if she was behaving I wouldn't put it on her, but as soon as she starts to attack me, she would get muzzled. I'm just worried that I might do some sort of mental or emotional harm with the muzzle, but I don't know what else to do.

[JudyN]

Could you give a complete run-down of her normal day, please? What sort of training do you do with her, and do the training sessions go OK, or is she continually trying to bite you?

What is her demeanour like generally? Does she have calm times, or is she hyper most of the time? Does she listen to you generally? Does she do the same with other people?

What I'm wondering is if the biting is a symptom of general overarousal and poor frustration tolerance, or a specific 'habit' if that makes sense.

Also, can I ask why you picked her up to put her outside rather than led her outside?

I'm not an expert, but the clearer the picture the experts have of what she is like the better they will be able to help.

She is still very young, and may well also be teething. Will she entertain herself with chew toys for any length of time? Frozen carrots can help with sore gums - or wet a flannel, twist it, put it in the freezer, and give it to her frozen. She might also enjoy shredding cardboard boxes.

You have my sympathies. By all means train her to accept a muzzle and use it at times while you're having some quality time together - that way she may even look forward to wearing it as it means 'fun'. It won't cure the biting but it may give you an opportunity to work on some impulse control games, etc, and also give you a break which it sounds like you really need. It won't do her any harm at all if used sensibly.

[MaeFlowers]

Ok let's see. Mornings she goes outside as soon as I get out, and I generally have to physically put her outside (hence picking her up) or she won't go out, and there will be an accident on the floor. She just gets so excited that I'm up and awake that she doesn't want to go outside until she's out there. She spends her nights 50/50 either in her kennel in our bedroom, or loose in the basement. Some nights she just refuses to go to sleep. During the day she is home by herself while my husband and I work. When we get home she goes out again to pee and run around, and we play some fetch as she LOVES fetch. She also likes to take herself on a visit to all the neighbours, as we live in a 4plex on an acreage with one other building, so lots of people. Unfortunately none of the other dogs like her, so she has no doggy friends, but she does get to be social with people at least. She spends her nights going in and out pretty much, she doesn't take off so she is allowed to wander around outside as she pleases. We haven't started doing any serious walks, as she's not a big fan of the harness and leash yet (plus I've read not to walk them too much for the first year as it can harm their joints and such while they're growing).

I haven't done any major training with her, just the basics like sit and come. We are working on down, but I think stay is going to be a while, it's a nightmare trying to get her to hold still for more than a second. Training sessions are actually ok, but if there is a pause for any reason she goes back to trying to bite me.

She is pretty much one of those puppies that never stops moving. For example, when I want to check her teeth or ears, I have to physically pin her down with my body just to get her to hold still long enough to look. And when she needs her nails clipped, it takes 2 of us to hold her so I can clip them. As for calm times, I assume she has them at some point during the day when I am not around, and at night, but I don't see them very often unless shes hurt or sick in which case she wants to cuddle on my lap constantly (no biting). She listens to me when I am calling her, or asking her to sit. She listens to my husband as well, which is good since she is supposed to be his dog, but I ended up with all the work.

I don't believe she is still teething, I watched most of her teeth fall out, and she has all her adult ones in now as far as I can tell, molars and everything. I can't decide if they hurt more, or less, than her baby teeth.

She has a room full of toys and boxes to shred and bottles to crinkle. I've been thinking about getting her a puzzle ball/food ball whatever you want to call it for her daytime meal, I thought it might be one more thing to keep her busy.

Oh, and she's on adult food already, as she didn't really like the puppy food I had her on, and was constantly eating the regular food out from under my other 2 dogs. I feed Orijen grain free dry dog food, which pretty much makes top 5 on all the lists of best dry dog foods.

I'm wondering if she just needs more exercise, as she seems to get a little less bitey after a long game of fetch. But even then she will continue to try to bite at my hands and arms. I just bought a clicker to see if it helps with her training, and I gave up my morning exercise to do some training and fetch with her this morning in hopes that more exercise for her might help.

[Theo400]

Hi

other than fetch what mental exercise does she get? I ask as My late German Shepherd Theo needed more mental stimulation than he did physical with him being a working breed. we use to do find it were I would hide a toy and he would have to find it and he would have to use his nose to find the toy that I had hidden, we also did find me were I would hide in a woodland or forest area and someone else had the lead and he would have to find me a bit like search and rescue. then he would also get agility 3x a weeks but dogs have to be around 18months before they can do this. I use to also give him puzzle toys. I also use to teach him new things like pray, give me 5 , spin, rollover, bang your dead, I even taught him to add up numbers like I would show him a card with 2+2 and he would bark 4 times. we also did tracking

It sound like she just needs more exercise. it can be hard with her age as well as you do have to limit physical exercise I followed the 5 min rule which is 5mins for every moth of age so a 7 month old would need 35mins of physical exercise a day. when Theo was this age he need more walks really but I had to limit for the sake of his joints. I would start leash training her now even if she does not like it that would be something else I would work on.

[Theo400]

Hi

I have just read your post again and I have something else to ask at what age did you get her?

as if you got her as a puppy did she come to you at 8 weeks as I was told once that if a puppy leaves her mother before 8 weeks then they don't learn important lessons from mom and litter mates. if she was older like 5 months for example than were you told about her history if know.

[Nettle]

Sounds as if most of her life is freelance and you don't feature a lot in it. This may contribute to her over-excitement when she does get interaction with you.

Letting dogs lob around outside unsupervised stores up a lot of trouble for the future. I suggest that you stop the free-ranging and start engaging with her. Ten minutes at a time walking together outside gives you a lot to work with, and if you start to be the most important asset in her life, she will relate to you in a more controlled manner.

Some pups really are bitey. You have my sympathy! But even the bitiest pups only have so much chewing in them. Instead of leaving her toys to play with by herself, start being part of that process, even if you are only watching as she dismembers a box or a cabbage.

I suggest you use a short house lead (a length of ribbon will do) to take her outside with. Practice practice practice leading her out (reward) and in (reward) until she walks by your side nicely. Then add that new knowledge to taking her out to potty.

There's more.....so much more...but I don't want to overwhelm you all at once.

[MaeFlowers]

I will start with the lead when I get home from work today. My husband is home all day today, so I instructed him to make sure he plays with her and takes her outside for some more fetch to see if there is any difference in how she reacts to me when I get home. She is not nearly so crazy with him, just me. I will also see if I can find her some puzzles next time I go shopping. I will let you know if I see any improvement in her behaviour and we can go from there.

[JudyN]

Have a look at Kikopup videos on Youtube - there's some great advice there for games & fun training ideas. Depending on your budget, Ruth Ottinson toys are excellent, though if she's smart she may suss them out rather quickly and you'll feel the need to get another...and another!

I think you've had bad advice about when to start walking her. At 7 months she can have a couple of 35-min walks a day, but the guidelines really refer to 'forced walking'. If you go out, sniff the verges, walk on a bit, double back to sniff something really interesting one more time, stop and watch the birds... she would be able to go much longer. Just compare it to what she'd be doing at home You may well have problems with her biting while on walks - let us know if so, we can help with that (and also with getting her used to the lead and the whole concept of walks).

I agree Orijen is a good food. However, it is high in protein and some people think it can make dogs more hyper. I'm dubious about the whole 'protein-->hyper' idea, but when I tried Jasper on Orijen we had a really bad couple of days with his jumping/biting. It could have been coincidence, but I didn't feel inclined to repeat the experiment It may be worth you trying a different food, with more carbs in. I'm not sure which I'd recommend though, as generally I think it's best to avoid any 'filler'. For that reason, I'm going to suggest raw feeding - and many people have noted improvements in their dogs' behaviour after changing to raw. But we've already given you plenty to think about, so you may want to put that on the back burner for now.

[MaeFlowers]

I will let you know how the walking goes tonight.

As for the food, there was no difference switching her from puppy food to adult food, and the puppy food was a completely different brand (Wellness puppy food), so I would say I don't think it's the food? The raw foods I checked out were also a lot more expensive, and with 3 dogs and 5 cats to feed, I have about maxed out my food budget on them.

[Nettle]

You don't need to buy toys! You can make super toys out of cardboard, newspaper, big raw vegetables, old fleeces, and for a small outlay, bun tins and tennis balls and something you can cover and use as a small sandpit. Check out our pinned 'Exercise the Mind' thread for ideas.

Don't increase the 'fetch'. What you do now is fine but 'fetch' whips them up and gets them excited, and what your pup needs is calmness. Also NO rough-and-tumble games. More 'figure this out' games will tire pup out and use up a lot of biteyness.

[MaeFlowers]

So my husband managed to tire Daisy out with some fetch yesterday, and by the time I got home, she was happy to see me, but not nearly so bitey. I took her out for a little walk, nothing crazy, just let her run around and smell things, and get a little offleash through the farmers field behind us. Once I managed to get a harness on her (15 mins, not even kidding, she got the zoomies while I was trying to put it on her, so I had to wait for her to calm down) the walk was great. We even practiced some recall with a long lead and clicker.

This morning she was right back to bitey unfortunately, but at least there looks like there is hope.

As for toys, I do make my own. She has several rope toys made from one of my husbands old t shirts, some box toys, and she gets carrots when I have them. 2 out of 3 of my dogs love carrots! Anything puzzle-y though I think would need to involve food for her to find, because she doesn't seem very interested in finding toys if I hide them, or anything of that sort.

[Nettle]

Yep, read the thread and you will find activities involving tiny amounts of food, and also scenting work


You are doing really well! It's a long haul with puppies, longer than most people realise - but they do grow out of the biteyness with a little help. I always suggest to keep a diary and then on what seems to be a bad day you can look back and see how far you have come and how well you are doing. People need rewards too!

[JudyN]

There will be setbacks along the way too, so if you feel like you've made progress and then have a really rubbish day, don't be downhearted - we all have 'funny days'.

[mustluvdogs]

I love and hate the internet at the same time. There is so much advise. Some good, some not so good. Where did you read it's not good to walk dogs under 1 year? The only thing to avoid is Running / Jogging with undeveloped puppies. They Need structured walks for proper mental stimulation. New sites, sounds and smells every day. At least 20-30 minutes if not more.
She does need more structure from you. I would Highly suggest getting some professional help using positive reinforcement. An experienced trainer or behaviorist. Ask around to get some good ideas in your area, before these issues get worse.
I've been teaching classes for 10 years and can tell you that some of the methods you have used (the physical corrections) are probably why she is still biting at this age. The only thing you should be doing is showing her what is ok to chew on and putting it in her mouth. If after 2-3 tries, she is still biting you, then ignore her until she calms down.
Sorry to say but it sounds like your puppy is definitely the Top Dog in the house right now. Unless he is afraid of you for the physical corrections, then he is telling you to back off for picking him up. He is making things on his terms. You should be able to touch his paws, tummy, nails, etc...
I have also heard sometimes food makes a difference. Wellness is also a high protein food - fyi.
Best of luck to you.

[mustluvdogs]

PS - I;m also curious to know what age you got the puppy at? If they are taken away from mom/siblings before 8 weeks of age, they don't learn proper bite inhibition.