why do dogs test us?

[ridgebackowner]

Hi

I will be bringing home my new RR (rhodesian ridgeback) puppy in a few weeks. so I have been reading Victoria's Newer book (2013) as it took me a while to get hold of a copy and have learned that there is no such thing as dominance and that there is no such thing as pack leader but with what I read in the book and now understanding positive training better I got a bit confused when she said on the page about adolescence she says that this is the stage were your puppy will stand his ground with other dogs and this is the time he will test his human family as well.

I really want to understand better what dose she mean "test" his human family as I always thought that dogs would test our leadership but that is clearly wrong so how and why do dogs test us in this stage and how can I over come this stage when Simba reaches this age.

this is the book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Train-Your-Dog- ... a+stilwell

[delladooo]

I don't have a "real" answer for you - there's no firm science behind it - but at that stage they're teenagers. As teens do, they're trying to be more independent and work out firm boundaries. Like you wouldn't let a small child use the oven but you're going to let a teenager, rules tend to shift slightly as you trust the dog more (consciously or not) so they test to see what's changing and how much they can get away with

[ridgebackowner]

Hi

thanks Delladooo for you reply. I am still looking forward to what others say on this but I get what your saying and understand a bit better now.

while I am understanding things there is something I would really like to be explained as well as above and that's how is a Labrador "easier" than the RR. I was always told that an RR, Rottweiler, Doberman are a lot harder to train and control than a Labrador which I never understand this as dogs are there own person and even tow Labradors will not be the same so I never understand when people tell me that RR are more difficult than a lab as surely even a Rottie in the right hands is just as easy as any other breed.

[delladooo]

That one I can answer with slightly more science. It's in the genes.

I know it sounds a bit of a cop-out, and in some ways I suppose it might be, but their breeding determines certain characteristics. Dogs like rotties / RR / dobe etc. are meant to be more independent thinkers and assessors left to do a job on their own whilst a lab is bred to follow a person and collect shot game for them (hence the idea that all labs love to fetch too). In the right hands, any breed will work for the individual and do magnificent things for them. It's about finding what works for that dog and getting them to want to work with you by having the best toy and the best food and being the best thing in the world. It's just that a dog that is more predisposed to looking to people generally have more obvious and "easier" rewards.... I don't know if this really makes sense outside my head

[JudyN]

Interesting questions!

I see 'testing boundaries' not as the dog testing leadership, but thinking 'Can I do this?' or 'Can I nick that?' They see something, they want it, they try to work out how to get it... This is where a human teenager may do anything from slamming a door when their parents say no to stealing a car and going for a joyride. Or they may simply learn how to wrap their parents round their little finger with a charm offensive. It's not to do with leadership, it's a lot more to do with not being able to deal with frustration or not having learnt that they will get the best results by being polite and tidying their rooms (that's the human teens, of course, not the dogs ). Hence the importance of impulse training and rewarding good behaviour. Dogs can be manipulative, and will do what works. Jasper is currently manipulating me by going to his bed and staring at me lovingly as I eat an ice cream and I'm happy to be manipulated this way

As for the difference between the breeds you mention - some dogs, when frustrated or anxious, are more likely to respond with a certain level of aggression (anything from a curled lip or a soft growl to a full-on bite). Say you tried to take a bone from a dog, or allowed your toddler to climb all over it (neither of which you should ever do), some dogs will be perfectly easy-going about it, some dogs will look to be OK about it if you don't know how to read body language (and may 'suddenly' turn), and some would react by biting. A dog of any breed could fall into any of these categories, but a lab is more likely to take annoying children and removed bones in his stride (not that he should have to).

Another point is that a lab who jumps all over a stranger in greeting is likely to be viewed as friendly, and people might not see this as a problem (though it is, as someone could get knocked over or get muddy footprints over their best clothes), but a doberman or rottie doing the same thing is more likely to be perceived as dangerous. Some breeds are more likely to be sociable with other dogs, be happy to play rough-and-tumble, and not realise that the other dog is trying politely to tell them to bog off - so the other dog ends up snarking and getting blamed. Labs are often convinced that all other dogs are their new best friends and not reading the signs.

[Nettle]

They are sentient beings and want to do those things they find rewarding. In our world, we sometimes don't want them to do those things.

Adolescents of any breed, including us, test boundaries and so test our patience. What happens if I don't do what you want? What happens if I run away? What happens if I do this instead of that? It's part of maturing into a co-operative species. All adolescents are horrible to a greater or lesser degree. Most of the dogs we see in rescue are adolescents. The great thing is that they grow out of it and it's no big deal.

Training differs markedly between types. Each type brings its own challenges, according to what the breed type's original task was. JudyN and Della explain it well. Dogs bred for independence are harder to train than dogs bred to follow instructions. But ALL types have their areas of difficulty. The trick is to get the type whose difficulties you can manage.

[Ari_RR]

And RRs are independent thinkers... And need a good reason to do something before they do it. Which can at times be maddening to humans. "I told him to come here, or to drop it, or to leave it... Isn't that enough?!?". No, that's not enough

I think the key to survival of RR adolescence is your sense of humor.
If you can laugh instead of getting upset and angry - you'll be all right
If not - it will be a long road ahead of you. They mature and calm down around 2 y.o., some times it takes even longer.

[ridgebackowner]

Hi Everyone

thank you to all of you, I fully understand and am prepared for that. Ari_RR I do have a sense of humour which your right I will need when I bring him home .

one last thing I would like to ask with the other thing I asked, I get now how training a rottie differs to a lab but what about breeds like the Border collie and German Shepherd as they are always considered more difficult than a lab. yet they work with there human?

so how do they differ to a lab?

[Nettle]

There's a whole lot more to it than training - you have to live with the beast. Herders are 'busy' dogs and need a lot more occupation than gundogs, whose job involves patience and waiting. So while they will learn to be trained, there are hours and hours where they are not being trained where you still have to live with them. Some dogs will say "What are we doing next?" some will sleep, some will chew, some will dig, some will scout for food. All dogs will do all of these things, but each breed type has a favoured go-to behaviour.

Be aware that many breeds with 'sheepdog' in the name are not herders but flock-guarding mastiffs. Their attitude is different again.

[ridgebackowner]

Hi Nettle

thank for the info I get it now, I was actual reading a post by someone else on a German Shepherd forum about this and one of the members really summed it up similar to what you have said. she said that all the GSD she has owned were more intense than any Golden retriever she has ever owned and that what she found challenging with the GSD is to keep the busy and happy as hers would be done with a Kong or food puzzle in 10mins and then wanted something else so it is about keeping them busy. the person asked the difference between a Goldie and a GSD. and a lot of people on the forum were saying similar that Germans were bred to work ALL day were Goldie/labs would work for a few hrs a day.

[Ari_RR]

But an adult RR, given 2-3 good interesting walks, will happily sleep for the rest of the day. Good choice of breed!

[Nettle]

the person asked the difference between a Goldie and a GSD. and a lot of people on the forum were saying similar that Germans were bred to work ALL day were Goldie/labs would work for a few hrs a day.

Not quite. Gundogs do work all day, and in some pretty foul conditions too. And labrador origins were dock dogs, helping with the fishing boats, sometimes spending hours in and out of cold water. Gundogs have to be patient, and wait quietly for long spells, and follow precise direction while not getting bored with the same few tasks. Herding dogs follow a much wider remit of tasks, not forgetting that GSDs are used as much as people and property guards as herders, which is another skill set entirely. Relatively few GSDs work with livestock these days, but aren't so many generations away from a guarding background, maybe with some tracking too.

Labs and Goldens are much less 'needy' than the herders, which need their people, need a job to do, and need constant input from their humans. This is great for those who can rise to the occasion, but some would find the lack of an 'off' switch hard work. Others find the gundog breeds not exciting enough.

Great questions - keep 'em coming