Help with hunting behaviour

[LauraF]

Hi I'm looking for some advice if possible! I have a 10 month old spaniel (springer / cocker cross) who has a decent recall (use treats /running away etc) but when she sees movement of birds or rabbits she makes a bee-line for them and cannot be distracted from the chase! She usually gives up when they get too far away but on a few rare occasions she caught a few creatures and brought them back alive -so I'm not worried about her killing something -my main worry is that no matter how good I think her recall is becoming she still occasionally darts off with no regard for roads etc.
I sought advice at the 2 training classes I attend weekly and most of the experienced spaniel owners (many of whom work their dogs) have basically told me I will never develop a totally reliable recall without using some punitive training - most suggested bringing her round to their farm and putting her in a rabbit pen with a shock collar that is used if she ignores her recall... im extremely uncomfortable with this advice and would really like to know if there's another reliable way?
I'd appreciate advice as I've run out of ideas!

[Dibbythedog]

There is a book by David Ryan that has lots of advice
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/stop-how-t ... g-in-dogs/

You could use a low vibration collar and pair it with a reward so it wouldnt be punishment .

[emmabeth]

I wouldn't bother with a collar like that Dibby because if its a positive interruptor you might as well use a whistle or verbal cue, neither of which can fail!

Right now the answer is to use a harness and long line so that you are back in control of what happens or does not happen.

If your recall cue is 'poisoned', ie, she knows she can ignore it, pick a new one (I would totally go with a whistle) and retrain that new cue from scratch so that recalling FAST is a habit,a really really well conditioned habit.

10 months is teenager stage and very often the best you can do is to 'mark time' - keep reminding on the lessons shes already learned and prevent any new unwanted habits developing but don't worry too much about forward progress at this stage. Fortunately bitches do calm down a bit quicker than boys on this front.

Whilst I think that now that she has caught things and thus knows she can do that and its rewarding to do, it WILL be harder to stop her chasing, I don't agree that it is therefore necessary to shock her in fact there is no evidence htat this is any more reliable than positive reinforcement, it just appeals to human beings nature to 'stop it happening/punish the bad behaviour'..


What you should be doing is: work on her retrieve, particularly, work on directing to pick up this time, rather than that item (ie, send her out ot pick up something on the left and ignore something on the right and vice versa) so that she starts to associate retrieving, finding things, picking things up, with direction from you. This is a game you control...and she needs your input as part of the team, to tell her what to do.

Work on self control too, games that involve waiting, going and doing one thing before doing teh thing she wants, make sure these are fun and not increasing frustration of course but they should all be gearing her up toward learning that exercising self control actually gets her the thing she wants.

I would also play with her with a flirt pole to give her htat chase/catch buzz, and teach her to tug a tuggy toy so again you are a source of good stuff (as well as food rewards), that will appeal to her desire to have things in her mouth. Teach a rock solid 'out' or 'drop' though so that she will let go the second you ask!

[jacksdad]

have basically told me I will never develop a totally reliable recall without using some punitive training

Not true. I would agree that once a dog learns to the joy of actual hunting things become more difficult and take more time, but if "punitive" measures work, then non punitive will too.

It is important to distinguish between just chasing a bunny, cat, squirrel and actual hunting. Same goes for seek out and flush or point out game and actual hunting.

Actual hunting, meaning notice prey, stalk, chase, kill and maybe even eat can be SO highly rewarding that it is entirely possible that a dog knowing they will get shocked if they engage may be willing to take the shock and do it anyway. Dogs are perfectly capable of KNOWING the shock or other punitive consequence will happen if they do something, yet do it anyway. A dog making this choice isn't disrespecting you, dominate, flipping you the finger, being stubborn etc, it is simply a matter of actual hunting (the acquisition for food and running are both very self reinforcing activities. they need to be for dogs to survive absence a human to care for them) being more reinforcing than letting the prey go and returning to you. This is important to keep in mind when people push shock collars as the solution. Shock and other punitive options are not magic wands that solve all your dog issues. Particularly if one or two shocks do not actually stop the behavior. Stopping is defined as not just in the moment, but tomorrow, next week, next year etc. BUT, there is always the risk that the dog will resume the unwanted behavior in the future (tomorrow, next week, next year etc) despite the shock in the past. if you have to continual shock a dog, you have left training and entered abuse.

most suggested bringing her round to their farm and putting her in a rabbit pen with a shock collar that is used if she ignores her recall... im extremely uncomfortable with this advice and would really like to know if there's another reliable way? I'd appreciate advice as I've run out of ideas!

I am glad you are uncomfortable with this. Forget that the ethics of this board would not support this, it isn't even sound training. Dogs MUST first be trained in what they SHOULD DO and be reliable in that before the shock even enters the equation. Interesting thing is...if you can train to this point, then why would you need a shock collar? This is among other reasons why we do not advocate or support this type training. mistakes are costly when using punishment and can have very undesirable long term consequences.

I get to spend time with a Jindo, a Koren bred that is bred to actually hunt; notice, stalk, chase down, and kill prey. Most Western hunting dogs do not actually hunt. they "hunt" only to the point of finding the prey for the human to kill or they retrieve the prey after the kill. but the Jindo....that is the "rifle", they do the killing for the human "hunter", so this breed tends to have the whole "hunting package". Nicest bred, loving, gentle, loyal with humans. But they also are wired to actually hunt. So I know the challenges, the level of work it will take to work with a dog that has learned the joy of the hunt.

you do not have an entirely impossible task ahead, just one that you will NEED to be willing to start small and build up with some care and thought. Asking your dog to call away from rabbits in pen is like step 1000 when you haven't even trained step 1. you start with things that are easy for your dog to come away from and SLOWLY increase the challenge making sure along the way the level your dog is at is as solid as possible before increasing the difficulty.

Start will Emma's advice, build from there.

[Dibbythedog]

Thats true Emmabeth . I use a whistle. I dont why I didnt say that. Old age is creeping up on me