Need help/advice training our lurcher

[chrisharry]

Hi all I thought I would sign up and post a few of my concerns to see if anyone has any suggestions and ideas to help us with our dog!

First a bit of background info-



This is Freddie. We think he is about 13 months now. We were told he was 10 months when we got him and he had been in the rescue centre for 4 months before we took him home. Previous to this the rescue center got him from a pound where they found him as a stray (who knows how long for ). We think he is a greyhound x collie based on what the vet told us!

We are a married couple who bought a house ago 3 years ago. We waited and waited until it felt the right time to commit to a dog and my work allowing me to bring him with me into the office was the deciding factor as I didn't want to get a dog and leave him at home every day. When we went to see Freddie we decided we would only get him if he seemed to have a good temperament, wasn't to excitable or too scared and was good with other dogs as there is another dog in the office so it was important that they didnt fight!

When we saw him he was all the things we wanted and they said how good he was with other dogs so we decided to go for it! We both read a book on how to train a dog and watched victoria stillwell videos, both of which I saw as more of a reinforcement since being around my parents greyhounds as long as I can remember! We wanted to make sure we were prepared for this so we had a dog we could trust around other dogs/children and any in any other situations!

When we brought him him we noticed he was full of worms and had a very bad stomach (despite the center showing some sort of paperwork saying that he was fully up to date with his treatment..) we started the training straight away and he was responding pretty well and he seemed to settle in instantly which was great for us.

He had to settle into the work routine pretty quick too which I always knew would be a challenge. He's pretty good at work although if he sees the other dog he cries and whines until its out of sight and out of mind. Ill come back to the issues at work at the end!


Dog training-

We were keen from the off to enroll him in a dog training class. Found the most recommended one in the area and signed him up. 6 weeks later they said the next course was starting and we took him along. He met the other dogs outside and seemed fine greeted them but wasn't aggressive or over excited in anyway. We went inside and he just cried/barked/pulled for the whole 90mins without any reprieve. The instructor said he would be better the following week but had a very similar experience. The instructor said perhaps its too similar to the kennels and it is frightening him as he has all the signs of being completely stressed out and recommended one to one training. She didnt have time but her colleague who also freelanced one to one training offered to do a session once a fortnight and gave us homework which we practice as much as we can, especially on walks. His behavior on the one to one wasn't much better than it was in the group but at least at times he was settled enough to practice and alot of what we practiced he picked up really quick which was great! On more the obedience side he has got worse since the training started. He gets frustrated very quickly and has recently started attacking the lead and then your hands. Not hard enough to cut but enough to hurt..(ill get back to this at the end) We get through about a bag of training treats a day especially on the 5 or 6 walks that he does.

Routine-

I thought if I list Freddies daily routine it might help.

7am - Wife gets up, lets him out in the garden to do his business. She waits outside with him and then gives him is breakfast when he comes in (but makes a point of eating something first as thats what we have been told to do)
7.30am Goes for a walk down the road for about 20 mins

8am- I take him for a 30min walk or he is let of in the large office and we play fetch with his ball which he brings back to hand every time.

8.30- 10.30 Freddie is in his XXL crate by the side of my desk. I usually give him the small kong with a treat in to keep him stimulated then he has a sleep

10.30 - 10.45 I use my morning break to take him for a walk round the outside of the building as there is lots of grass. He usually gets greeted by a couple of our staff or volunteers every walk throughout the day and 9/10 times hes very good and on the 10th time he might get too excited and try and jump up someone.

10.45-12.45 Freddies back in the crate and usually has half a dentastic and a chewy toy to play with.

12.45-1.15 30min walk here usually around the building and into the field opposite to do long lead training. If the weather is really bad we go for a walk and then play ball in a large unused meeting room.

1.15 - 3.00 Freddies in his crate and usually gets another little treat in his kong that keeps him amused for a while

3.00-3.15 Another walk to get him out of the crate and stretch his legs do his business etc

3.15 - 4.45 In the crate until its time to go home. The last 15-30 mins is the only time he plays up really which I don't blame him. Crazy how he knows its time to go even after the weekend he just knows!!

5.00- 6.00 We take him for a walk usually somewhere different every day. In the woods, the park, coastal path or doing long lead practice on the beach which he does really enjoy

6.30 - Onwards Freddie has his dinner, usually have a play in the garden with his rope. In the evening he relaxes in the living room either on the floor playing with a toy, playing pull rope with one of us or sleeping on the floor or on his one square of the sofa. Hes only allowed up if hes invited up and not when we have visitors or when anyone's eating.

I know him being in the crate for some of the day isnt ideal but with the walks it has to be better than being left at home on his own all day while at work like alot of people do. Its also alot better than the cold barn he was living in at the rescue center..


So thats a bit about Freddie (sorry for the essay!!) Im hoping that info will help with some ideas and suggestions for the problems I am having. Some of the issues I have asked the trainer about but not really happy with the answer as she avoided the question. We also are not seeing her again as I had a call yesterday saying the hall is no longer available so Im guessing she has fallen out with the owner or something. I guess thats what inspired me to look for a forum online for help!


Problems-

o- Attacking the lead while walking. Freddie walks good on the lead most of the time but once or twice today he starts biting the lead and pulling it. If I say drop he sometimes drops it but then just picks it back up again. The trainer said to hold his collar and lift it up until he lets go and praise him when he does but he just picks it back up again. Occasionally he then nips my hands when trying to do this and I have to try and get him to lie down until he settles. We have been doing this for a while now and it doesnt seem to be getting any better.

o- Berzerker mode. This is what I have termed it as. When he seems to get fustraighted he goes a bit crazy and gets a bit nippy on the hands and arms. He has drew blood a few times now. he sometimes does this when on the lead or when playing with a toy. I dont want to hit him as I dont know whats happened to him in the past and shouting seems to make it worse as well. All im doing is putting him in a down and waiting for him to calm down but im not sure if thats making him worse!

o- Eating potentially harmful things. Sometimes he drops sometimes he doesnt. We let him have a run on the beach for the first time at the weekend as we found one that was very secluded and had no one on it. It was great to see him run around but he seems to think its a game when he picks up something he shouldn't and im shouting DROP and LEAVE at him. As soon as I get withing a few meters he bolts the other way wagging his tail. He found a leg of a king crab and he would not drop it or come near us to let us take it and he crunched away and ate the whole thing. The rest of the shell stank so it must have been rotten and could carry any diseases. Any ideas of what we can do? I think letting him off for a run is important to his health as he needs to burn of some energy but I dont want it to be at the expense of him eating something that could cause him some real damage. Any ideas?

o- Whining in the car. For the first month of having him he never never made a sound in the car. Now since we started going training it feels like it becomes a more regular occurrence. It tends to be more coming home from work rather than going to it in the morning and I cant figure out a) why and b) how to stop it. We have tried ignoring him but that doesn't make a difference and I have tried saying be quiet and rewarding him with a training treat or praise whenever he stops for 10 mins or so. Yesterday when I said be quiet he just full on barked for about 30 seconds. Hes not done that before..

o- Whining when seeing other dogs. This can be at work, in the car or on a walk. As soon as he sees one he starts whining.. Perhaps due to his experience in the pound or in kennels. What can I do to reassure him its ok?

o- Not loose lead walking. Generally he walks on a lead really well. I can say freddie come and he comes back to me. A double tap on the lead and lets go and he will follow.. If we go somewhere new or hes sees an animal or a person hes pulling hes lunging up on his back legs. Doesnt respond to the usual commands.. We have been training this religously for 3 months now and although he has made improvements not when he really needs to listen.

He may not sound like it but he really is a nice dog. Generally calm and gentle he just has these moments. Loves his toys, loves his treats and generally seems quite an intelligent dog. It would be great to try and work through these problems. Im also going to try and find a new dog trainer but if the wait is anything like last time I could do with some advice!

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post

Chris

[JudyN]

He may not sound like it but he really is a nice dog.

He sounds absolutely lovely, and normal for his age - I think on the whole you are doing a wonderful job with him I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment so apologise if my response is a bit here and there.... BTW, I'm not an expert but have a lurcher who has had various issues I've had to work with, so I hope people with more knowledge will chip in on some areas.

First up, Freddie is a teenager and just as with humans, that can be rocky at times. If anything, I wonder if maybe you've been putting a little too much into his training and expecting more results than he's able to give right now. As you've observed, some of the problems are to do with being easily frustrated and that's something that I do think needs time to develop. You can help, though - have a look at this Impulse Control video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc If you work within his capabilities, it will develop into him thinking 'Ah yes, I can be good for just a moment longer,' and this will carry over into all aspects of life. Once I saw my dog go as if to jump up on me and then change his mind at the last moment, I knew we were getting somewhere, as it was his decision to control himself, not me telling him to do it.

but makes a point of eating something first as thats what we have been told to do

This is old-school thinking, based on very flawed research (if you want to know more, you can't beat John Bradshaw's [img]In%20Defence%20of%20Dogs[/img]). It won't actually do any harm - unless watching someone else eat when he's hungry makes him stressed out. But it won't help, either - and it also raises question marks over the trainer you've been using if they still follow this school of thought.

Freddies back in the crate and usually has half a dentastic

Dentastiks aren't great, healthwise. They contain ingredients that can make some dogs a bit hyper. I don't honestly think Freddie sounds hyper, but if you want to consider his diet we can offer lots of advice there

I know him being in the crate for some of the day isnt ideal but with the walks it has to be better than being left at home on his own all day while at work like alot of people do. Its also alot better than the cold barn he was living in at the rescue center..

Actually, given the amount of activity he gets during the day I don't think it's a problem at all - if he was left to his devices he may well sleep the whole time anyway (or pester your work colleagues... ).

The trainer said to hold his collar and lift it up until he lets go and praise him when he does but he just picks it back up again. Occasionally he then nips my hands when trying to do this and I have to try and get him to lie down until he settles. We have been doing this for a while now and it doesnt seem to be getting any better.

Do you mean you're pulling him up by his collar? Please, don't do this - it's aversive, possibly dangerous if you do it too firmly and as you've observed, it doesn't work. You need to address the reasons why he does this rather than simply stop him doing it. Having a chain lead could help, though - it's not as much fun to chew. Try to take note of when this is likely to happen, e.g. towards the end of the walk, when walking along pavement, and so on. If you can predict it, you can try to avoid the situation, maybe by giving him something else to do like 'watch me' or a trained and rewarding heel (though this might be too much for him to focus on right now).

o- Berzerker mode. This is what I have termed it as. When he seems to get fustraighted he goes a bit crazy and gets a bit nippy on the hands and arms. He has drew blood a few times now. he sometimes does this when on the lead or when playing with a toy. I dont want to hit him as I dont know whats happened to him in the past and shouting seems to make it worse as well. All im doing is putting him in a down and waiting for him to calm down but im not sure if thats making him worse!

Don't think about hitting him, and don't shout. Instead, (1) try to avoid the situation by predicting when it will happen (I avoided open fields, which would set my dog off, and if playing in the garden would often carry something like a watering can while I played with him - absolutely not to swing at him, but simply to block him if he came for me with that look in his eye. I would also tend to stay near the door to the house so I could nip indoors the moment he started, rather than have to make my way down the length of the garden with a big dog attached) (2) When it does happen, do whatever you can to withdraw attention - turn away, facing a wall/fence/tree, with arms folded, looking at the sky/ceiling, pop his lead over a fence post and stand just out of reach, leave the room... - if you can put Freddie into a down with a firm but not intimidating, scary, command, that's great. Then reward him highly!

Some days when you try to move on again he will start up again. Simply repeat the above, again and again. On occasion it took me a long time to get just a few yards, but by being really consistent this did, eventually work. Another ploy I used was to wear an old but thick denim jacket, which meant that it was easier to remain calm. It also covered the bruises I had from days when it wasn't going to well....!

o- Eating potentially harmful things.

Don't worry too much - dogs are designed to eat all sorts of stinky stuff. Keep up training with the drop & leave, but if he doesn't respond, don't approach him to try to remove the item because that really will become a fun game. If he won't drop, walk away and ignore him - chances are he'll follow you. Or try throwing a ball, picking up some less harmful rubbish and saying 'what's THIS, Freddie?'

o- Whining when seeing other dogs. This can be at work, in the car or on a walk. As soon as he sees one he starts whining.. Perhaps due to his experience in the pound or in kennels. What can I do to reassure him its ok?

Do you think he might be whining because he wants to go and meet/play with them?

A double tap on the lead and lets go and he will follow..

Can I ask exactly what the double tap consists of? I know that some trainers use something similar as an aversive, a 'correction', which isn't what you want to be doing - but I do put a slight pressure on Jasper's lead to tell him it's time to move on.

If we go somewhere new or hes sees an animal or a person hes pulling hes lunging up on his back legs. Doesnt respond to the usual commands.. We have been training this religously for 3 months now and although he has made improvements not when he really needs to listen.

You probably want to try to increase your distance from other animals & people and reward him when he does pay attention to you. See a do/persong - get a treat when he turns to look at you and walks on calmly. In time you should be able to reduce the distance. But again, maturity will help (I came across some lurcher owners referring to walking reactive/overexcited dogs as 'kite flying' the other day )

Im also going to try and find a new dog trainer but if the wait is anything like last time I could do with some advice!

Do try to find one who doesn't talk about dominance, showing the dog that you are boss, feeding the dog after you, anything to do with 'status reduction' and anything aversive.

And do let us know how you get on - there's several lurcher fans on this forum

[emmabeth]

All of what Judy said...

I am a lurcher person also and theres another one of us floating about somewhere so you have landed in the right place here!

Whereabouts in the country are you as we can probably help find you a good trainer (county and town will do).

[chrisharry]

Thanks very much Judy that was a very helpful post! I have tried to reply in red in the sections

This is old-school thinking, based on very flawed research (if you want to know more, you can't beat John Bradshaw's [img]In%20Defence%20of%20Dogs[/img]). It won't actually do any harm - unless watching someone else eat when he's hungry makes him stressed out. But it won't help, either - and it also raises question marks over the trainer you've been using if they still follow this school of thought.

Ok thanks. Yes as of this week I have started reading alot again about positive training and it seems a few things they do dont fit in line with what we set out to do in the first place.

Dentastiks aren't great, healthwise. They contain ingredients that can make some dogs a bit hyper. I don't honestly think Freddie sounds hyper, but if you want to consider his diet we can offer lots of advice there

Ok thanks for that. We feed him James well beloved or something like that and generally give him pure meat treats. Dentasticks and the kong biscuits are the only exceptions


Do you mean you're pulling him up by his collar? Please, don't do this - it's aversive, possibly dangerous if you do it too firmly and as you've observed, it doesn't work. You need to address the reasons why he does this rather than simply stop him doing it. Having a chain lead could help, though - it's not as much fun to chew. Try to take note of when this is likely to happen, e.g. towards the end of the walk, when walking along pavement, and so on. If you can predict it, you can try to avoid the situation, maybe by giving him something else to do like 'watch me' or a trained and rewarding heel (though this might be too much for him to focus on right now).

Great idea with the chain lead I have just ordered one It can be anticipated when he does it he either starts walking slow by your side and takes the lead and starts pulling it. OR all of a sudden he he tries to run in one direction and then the other then jumps and attacks the lead. If you try and take it off him he takes your hand instead.. Yeah they said to hold his collar up just so he knows its there not to choke him. It does work but thats one of the reasons why I posted on here as there must be a better way.


Don't think about hitting him, and don't shout.

Yeah i dont agree with hitting dogs especially as I dont know if he has been mistreaded in the past. Difficult to not shout sometimes when he does something he knows he shouldnt but I get it doesnt help the situation. What do you suggest I do im more extreme cirumstances eg if he bit a child that ran up to him? Or if he jumps up and knocks my nan into the fishtank (yes this one actually happened) Is there a technique to use when it could be life or death?


Or try throwing a ball, picking up some less harmful rubbish and saying 'what's THIS, Freddie?'

Yeah this works sometimes with a nice squeaky ball. Unfortunatley a squeaky ball isnt more appealing to a king crab claw or some animal poo!


Do you think he might be whining because he wants to go and meet/play with them?

Yeah most probably but in some situations thats not possible.. Him whining in the car happens with no animals around so im not sure what that is.. Again hes ok in the morning but not in the evening!

Can I ask exactly what the double tap consists of? I know that some trainers use something similar as an aversive, a 'correction', which isn't what you want to be doing - but I do put a slight pressure on Jasper's lead to tell him it's time to move on.

Just two quick light pulls as an encouragement to come this way of his own free will rather than pulling him along

If we go somewhere new or hes sees an animal or a person hes pulling hes lunging up on his back legs. Doesnt respond to the usual commands.. We have been training this religously for 3 months now and although he has made improvements not when he really needs to listen.

You probably want to try to increase your distance from other animals & people and reward him when he does pay attention to you. See a do/persong - get a treat when he turns to look at you and walks on calmly. In time you should be able to reduce the distance. But again, maturity will help (I came across some lurcher owners referring to walking reactive/overexcited dogs as 'kite flying' the other day )

Im also going to try and find a new dog trainer but if the wait is anything like last time I could do with some advice!

Do try to find one who doesn't talk about dominance, showing the dog that you are boss, feeding the dog after you, anything to do with 'status reduction' and anything aversive.

And do let us know how you get on - there's several lurcher fans on this forum

Thanks again for your post very helpful


thanks

[chrisharry]

All of what Judy said...

I am a lurcher person also and theres another one of us floating about somewhere so you have landed in the right place here!

Whereabouts in the country are you as we can probably help find you a good trainer (county and town will do).

Hi nearest town is Haverfordwest (Pembrokeshire)

Thanks!

[JudyN]

Yeah i dont agree with hitting dogs especially as I dont know if he has been mistreaded in the past. Difficult to not shout sometimes when he does something he knows he shouldnt but I get it doesnt help the situation. What do you suggest I do im more extreme cirumstances eg if he bit a child that ran up to him? Or if he jumps up and knocks my nan into the fishtank (yes this one actually happened) Is there a technique to use when it could be life or death?[/color]

If he has bitten the child (presumably you mean when he has one of his berserk moments, not actually aggression) or knocked over your nan, then it's too late anyway, so don't even think about punishment. It really is then a case of doing what works in the moment - you may of course be able to physically restrain him, but you might run in the other direction calling in the most excited voice ever, 'Freddie! SAUSAGES!!!!!! WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP!' Seriously, it is worth working on an emergency recall where he gets the best thing in the world (and lots of it) which you only use occasionally. 'Sausages' worked well for us

But the main aim is management. If he's likely to get excited and there's children around, keep him on lead. In fact you might want to keep him on lead around children anyway as even if he isn't excited they might get him excited. And keep him on lead round your nan, even if in the house, if he might jump up on her.

Keep up all the great work you're doing. You can't prevent all the unwanted berserker moments or feasts on stinky crab, but if you keep up the training and management you'll increase your success rate. I've also found I've become far more patient and calm with Jasper over the years and tend to see his 'moments' as me missing that he was getting a bit worked up... though I might have accidentally told him off when he jumped up on me in the garden and I stumbled into a table with some carefully potted up seedlings on it....

[JudyN]

There's a list of APDT-registered dog trainers in Pembrokeshire here: http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local- ... brokeshire They should all be positive, but it's as well to check, and also to ask how familiar they are with sighthounds as they are different to other dogs. If you ask a collie and a lurcher to sit, down, stand, down, sit, stand.... the collie will ask for more, more, more, and the lurcher is likely to wonder why you're wasting his time. As Freddie is a collie x lurcher, you'll have to be guided by him as to where he is on this spectrum, and respect that.

[chrisharry]

There's a list of APDT-registered dog trainers in Pembrokeshire here: http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local- ... brokeshire They should all be positive, but it's as well to check, and also to ask how familiar they are with sighthounds as they are different to other dogs. If you ask a collie and a lurcher to sit, down, stand, down, sit, stand.... the collie will ask for more, more, more, and the lurcher is likely to wonder why you're wasting his time. As Freddie is a collie x lurcher, you'll have to be guided by him as to where he is on this spectrum, and respect that.

Thanks for that list. One of those on their said that lurchers were not trainable...

Just a quick update...

Had a pretty good few weeks with Freddie. He seems to be playing nicer when we are playing tug with him. Only once has he 'missed' and caught a hand in the last few weeks where as it was more regular before.

We've managed to get him really excited about sausages.. 9 times out of 10 so far he drops what he is doing and comes over which is great! Once off the lead with my parents dogs he came back but a separate time he didn't which is the only time he hasn't so far!

We changed to a chain lead with his normal collar and that has stopped him biting the lead. Only problem is once or twice now when he has shown the signs he did previously instead of biting the lead he has jumped up me (which he never dies) and bit my arm. Not so hard that it hurts but still annoying and a worry if another family member takes him for a walk. No real pattern to why he does it. We were just walking along nice and it came from nowhere..

The main issue we are having at the moment is him crying/barking in the car.The first few months he was fine in the car. Never lies down and just looks out the back window or over the top of the back seat. He is in the boot of the car with the parcel shelf removed and its a decent size boot. We also put a non slip mat in there for him. Despite having several car journeys every day of about 15 to 20 mins Freddie has started barking/whining and its getting worse and worse. It started just when we saw a dog walking or a cyclist but now its getting to every journey weather we are going home, going to work, going down the beach... Its especially bad if one of us gets out the car to pop into the shop. We only go one at a time so hes not on his own and leave the car with the air con running to keep him cool.

We have tried ignoring him. Telling him to be quiet and rewarding him with treats when hes quiet but we dont seem to be making any progress. If I say anything like freddie quiet he gets worse and worse. He generally is ok for seperation, sleeps downstairs on his own, I can leave him at work and go away for a few hours and hes fine. Any ideas..?

[JudyN]

Thanks for that list. One of those on their said that lurchers were not trainable...

Good grief, what a load of codswallop! They are as trainable as any other dog (as long as you discount 'recall from deer' and 'don't steal food from the worktop' but even then some have managed it), though you have to adjust your approach to what you might use with other dogs.

It sounds like you're doing well. Don't worry too much about the jumping up and biting - with consistency, it will improve. it's understandable that he feels he needs a new outlet now chewing his lead isn't rewarding. Jasper only ever jumped up on OH and me which was a relief, so maybe Freddie will be the same.

I'm not sure about the car issues - Jasper's not great on long car journeys. He also doesn't like it if one of us gets out of the car, and I also find treats or telling him to be quiet don't work. The 'prescribed' treatment would be to work through gradual exposure to the car. This could even start with treating him when he just looks at the car, then for getting in the car, then just starting the engine, then going out the drive and back in... If Freddie is OK for, say, 5 minutes, then 5-minute drives would be your starting place. But this isn't much help if you have no choice but to take him on the longer journeys, which I guess would mean not taking him to work with you.

He might be better if you could restrict his view, maybe by having him in a covered crate in the boot. Or maybe a frozen kong would keep him occupied for long enough? If car sickness might be an issue there are remedies for that which could be worth a try, but maybe not practical on a daily basis. Hopefully someone else will have some ideas. You might find something useful in this thread on the Lurcher Link forum: http://www.lurcherlink.org/llink/forum/ ... hp?t=83967

[Erica]

If he likes toys, it might be helpful to bring one along on walks to present to him when he gets bitey. I had to tie one to the leash so I wouldn't forget it, haha, but it was helpful with my pup. It helped even more to teach him that the word "toy" means "bite the toy" - that way, I could help remind him what to do. Delta isn't a lurcher, though, so your mileage may vary.

[mansbestfriend]

Hi Chris. No advice except: From the one picture here and what you've said, I'd guess your Freddie is less lurcher and more collie. I'd have another look at working one on one in your home/work/car/whatever with a good dog trainer and/or behaviourist who can help you, to help your dog. Sounds like Freddie needs less excitement and more consistent training and activities appropriate for his environment and 'energy'. A good trainer and/or behaviourist should be able to help you, and Freddie.
Cheers.

[chrisharry]

Any ideas on whats best to help my wife stay on her feet when taking freddie for a walk? hes got pretty strong and shes struggling to hold him? Our old trainer reccommended one of the collars that turns the dogs nose when they pull. Are these ok for the dogs or do they cause discomfort?

Something like this http://www.petsathome.com/shop/en/pets/ ... ead-collar or this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canny-Company-0 ... roduct_top

i wouldnt want to use it if it hurt freddie but pulling hard to the point of choking cant be doing his neck any good either!

[Nettle]

Lurchers can accelerate so fast that there is a real risk of neck damage with using any kind of device on the face.

Have a look at our thread "Loose Leash Walking" for how to train lead manners.

Meanwhile find a soft wide adjustable harness such as Perfect Fit, where there is a lead attachment at the chest. Walk the dog with either a double ended lead or two leads, one on the collar and one on the harness. It's nothing like as hard as it sounds. Walk the dog holding both leads but with the chest lead inactive unless the dog lunges - then the chest lead comes into play by turning the dog towards you.

[chrisharry]

Hi Nettle we are constantly practicing loose lead walking! Hes really good when hes somewhere hes used to but if he sees a dog/cat/bike he Is hard to hold even for me! He is very treat orientated but once he gets all worked up he will turn his head away from the treats as well.

[mum24dog]

Oh this thread takes me back, even down to the chain lead. My first dog was a rescue lurcherand he did all that and more. If it's any consolation you are making quicker progress than we did.
With all that I love lurchers and would have another - just need to grow eyes in the back of my head first.
To train a lurches successfully you have to be smarter than the dog and that's not always easy.