No Mark or No Reward Marker?

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No Mark or No Reward Marker?

Post by CarolineLovesDogs » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:36 am

Do you guys think it's generally beneficial to use an NRM (no reward mark) in training? With clicker training we use a click to signify that the dog has done something good and will be rewarded. Some people also use a no reward mark which is used when the dog does something undesirable and is followed by a time out, removal of attention or other reward, or another punishment (I'm not talking about harsh, positive punishment, but more things along the lines of negative punishment). What do you think- is an NRM beneficial or pointless?

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Re: No Mark or No Reward Marker?

Post by Swanny1790 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:16 pm

We use the 'click' or reward mark to communicate what we like. I only seems fair to use an NRM (properly timed, of course) to communicate what we don't like.

I simply use the work "nope" or "no" and walk away for a bit.

Sometimes I'm just talking to myself rather than the dog, and say "That won't work", but most of my dogs understand the tone of voice and frequently correct the behavior.
"Once infected with the mushing virus, there is no cure. There is only trail." - Sven Engholm

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Re: No Mark or No Reward Marker?

Post by mansbestfriend » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:13 pm

Hi. I've used, and not used, a no-reward marker for training. I think it can depend on the dog and the trainer, and the situation, whether a NRM is necessary or productive, or counter-productive.

My Kelly dog the KelpieXStaffie offers lots of behaviors when learning something new , and a CALM verbal no-reward marker seems to help. On the other hand, Max the greyhound doesn't usually respond very well to a verbal wrong marker.

IMO, simple "Negative Punishment" compliments "Positive Reinforcement" whether or not there's an added no-reward marker. EDIT: removed duplicate comment.
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Re: No Mark or No Reward Marker?

Post by gwd » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:48 am

I use a whoops............ but it depends on what I'm training. Weave poles for example, you want to let the dog know the moment it's made a boo boo or otherwise, they'll get to the end and might well have done the last 8 poles perfectly........... they wouldn't understand why there is no reward.

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Re: No Mark or No Reward Marker?

Post by jacksdad » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:23 pm

I am undecided.

I am leaning towards no reward marking having minimal if any value. But a keep going signal, may have some value. now you might think semantics or what's the difference, but I think there can be a difference depending on how you implement. your tone of voice for example.

negative words can have negative tones. encouraging words can be more soft, friendly...encouraging. may not seem like much of a difference or even a difference worth worrying about....until you get "that" dog. For example, if you have a sensitive dog to negative sounds, actions etc. it can mean a world of difference.

lots of little tweaks in a more friendly, encouraging direction can make the difference.

going to keep thinking on this.....

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Re: No Mark or No Reward Marker?

Post by emmabeth » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:41 pm

I do with some, some of my dogs appear to prefer knowing when they are going down the wrong path - but not with others, notably the split seems to be the experienced dogs who enjoy training for trainings sake, vs the inexperienced dogs who are training because theres stuff they dont know yet.

With others a keep going signal tends to be better.

I think whichever way you go, as long as you have thought this through from not just 'a dogs' point of view but from YOUR dog, right there, the one you are training this second's point of view... you'll be ok. Its when we start deciding that we will train THIS way... and all dogs better fall in line with that, that we get serious issues.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant

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