Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

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Sanna
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by Sanna »

Great job! :D Sounds like you're off to a really good start, well done! Shaking and whining is obviously not ideal, but it's a step in the right direction and the fact that she was taking the food is a good sign. Many dogs feel calmer when wrapped/ held, maybe you want to try her Thunder shirt again? You might see better results this time when you're working on behaviour modification at the same time.

Regarding the whining, the thing with counter conditioning is you have to be super fast with the rewards in the beginning to get them in there immediately before the whining/ barking starts. Literally, dog sees/hears trigger- you start shovelling food down her before she even has time to think ;) in time you will be able to slow the reward down and spread it out more. If she starts whining try and get some more distance and/ or wait for a break in the whining (however brief) so you reward the quiet, not the whining- does that make sense?

As for the mailbox, sounds like that is a bigger trigger than the doorbell so maybe stick with that instead first- I'd use the same approach I described before so just substitute 'mailbox' for 'doorbell' ;) you could even record the noise of the mailbox opening/shutting and start from there, playing it and cc'ing her to the noise inside the house.

One other thing, if it was me I'd also start rewarding any calm/ good/ quiet behaviours throughout the day. I would use something slightly lower value for this, her normal food is fine- just take some of her daily ration and carry in your pouch (you'll need to keep the Special Goodies really special for the things that are really hard for her). Whenever she does something you like; such as lying quietly, being relaxed or choosing to go to her bed for example, you toss her a bit of food. This should strengthen those behaviours so she'll choose to do them more and more, and rewarding her for being calm will over time help her really feel more calm too.

Does she like to chew? Chewing is a fantastic stress reliever for dogs (hence why she chews the wall when she's really stressed), so if you can provide her with some chew time every day that'll help her relax also. Raw meaty bones, bully sticks or deer antlers are all great options, or a stuffed and frozen Kong (you could use her wet food, maybe mixed with some cheese, veg or meat- there's a pinned thread on here with lots of suggestions for fillings) ;)
Dibbythedog
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by Dibbythedog »

equestrian2024 wrote: I'm not sure if this is a fluke or not, but today, I wrapped her in a blanket and put her on my lap during mail drop-off. She only whined once! She heard the terrier barking, but she didn't react. She shook a little, but didn't bark. Basically, every time I heard a dog bark, I gave her a bit of bacon. I am not sure she associated the bacon with the barking, but that is the least she has ever whined during mail drop-off. And she actually ate the bacon! I half-expected her to not be able to eat it.

If I can keep her to just shaking and whining during the mail drop-off instead of completely losing her mind, does this mean that those hormones will start to decrease? Or is the shaking and whining enough to keep them elevated?
If you do his every day, I expect the whining and shaking will begin to lessen . I would think that once she realise that there is something lovely to eat she will start to look for it when you are holding her . You can engage her more , talk to her in a jolly voice , tell shes a good girl , hold the treat loosely in your fist so she has to work to release it , ask for a kiss, scratch her back , find out what works for her .
Try to relax yourself so she doesnt pick up any tension or worry . Its upsetting having to hold a dog that shakes and whines
but you can make it fun and enjoyable for both of you .

if she learns that the mail dropping in the box is no big deal and that being with you is fun and nice thing to eat, she hopefully will not bother running to the door but run to you instead or at least come to you when you call her .


Sanna said in her last post to leave the doorbell counterconditioning a little while and I think thats a good idea . If a visitor or delivery person does ring the doorbell , you or your parents could do the same thing as when the mail man comes, pick her up so that at least stops the barking.

Another good idea of sannas is to reward when she is being quiet and calm . It teaches her the behaviour you want. Most people dont do this as we take good behaviour for granted . You parents can do this too .
You can easily teach a settle , when Gracie is lying down relaxed anywhere , in her bed or on the sofa , and not whining and barking .just throw her a low value treat and say settle. Eventually she will realise that settle means and you can ask her to settle when she restless or agitated .

About your mom , she sounds very much like me . I'm also known as kim the cat and sabrina bunny . :lol: I love horses.
Some whining depending on the pitch- argghhh! I would descibe Gracie as a special needs dog , who need special ownes to help her adjust to the world. What would have happened to her if you hadnt adopted her , i dread to think .

I'm not against using natural calmers, there is DAP, a collar is more effective than the spray, rescue remedy you can add to her water , (humans use rescue remedy too) canine massage helps dogs relax. Maybe you could give your mom responsibilty for this.

http://www.dapdiffuser.com/faq.html
Dibbythedog
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by Dibbythedog »

Sanna wrote:
Regarding the whining, the thing with counter conditioning is you have to be super fast with the rewards in the beginning to get them in there immediately before the whining/ barking starts. Literally, dog sees/hears trigger- you start shovelling food down her before she even has time to think ;) in time you will be able to slow the reward down and spread it out more. If she starts whining try and get some more distance and/ or wait for a break in the whining (however brief) so you reward the quiet, not the whining- does that make sense?
Thats an important point you have made.
I've found a clicker excellent for marking behaviour especially for those brief gaps in barking and whining. You do have to be quick and nimble fingered, I've sometimes not been quick enough and clicked on a bark. :roll:


Equestrian , i've been bandying the words Desensitising and Counter-conditioning about and I might have used them in the wrong context. They're not the same thing so I hope I haven't caused any confusion .
equestrian2024
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by equestrian2024 »

Thanks, Sanna! I think I will definitely try the Thundershirt again. I understand what you mean about treating before the whining. I've been keeping her on my lap a lot while I work, so i'm pretty fast. But if she's in the same room, but not right next to me, it's harder. Maybe I need to keep her on a lead for a little while? She always chooses to be in the same room as us, but sometimes she's across the room…

I can definitely start rewarding her for calm behavior. She definitely loves to chew. She has several rope toys that she shreds over time :) I had no idea that chewing is a stress reliever. I'm learning a lot about doggie behavior on this forum for sure! I hope that if I can get her to a point where she doesn't attack the door, my mom won't want to leave her in the kitchen and thus, she won't be chewing the wall…

Dibby, I really hope the whining and shaking will begin to lessen! I feel bad that she is so upset all the time. I definitely want to try to teach her "Settle". I feel like in the past, we (especially my parents) just said, "Go lay down!" to her a lot. My parents were getting upset at her because she wouldn't just lay down. But I don't think she knew what "go lay down" meant…now I actually have a technique for teaching her to settle. Thank you! My cousins used to have a Golden Retriever that they brought to family gatherings (before we had Gracie) and she would just settle down anywhere, even lying down in the middle of the walkway. You'd have to step over her. My parents always compare Gracie to Cheyenne (the Golden) and say that Gracie doesn't know how to just go lay down some place. I'm excited to teach Gracie "settle".

I know what desensitizing means what it comes to horses (I had to do a ton of that with my mustang), but does it mean the same thing with dogs? My horse was terrified of any sticks, riding crops, lunge whips, etc. If she saw one, she'd spook and try to get away. I started out "rubbing the air" next to her and then progressed to rubbing her sides and then all over…she eventually grew to not mind the stick. Is desensitizing dogs like putting on your shoes and pretending to leave over and over but you're not really leaving?

I'm not sure if this deserves a separate post, but I have a question about a different dog. My neighbors on the other side (not the terrier side) have a hound mix puppy. She's an older puppy (probably nearly one year old) and they got her in the fall or so last year, I think…Anyway, she wakes me up EVERY day at 6-7am with her barking. This has been going on for maybe 2 months. I'm really fed up about it. I go to bed quite late since I'm always working and studying. The only reason I haven't said anything to the owners is that I'm afraid they will just put a bark collar on her. Do you have any positive training techniques that I can tell them about so that they (hopefully) don't just resort to a bark collar?

The problem is that there are walkers that walk down our street at about 6am. So, it starts with them. The dog has a clear view of the street from their fence. Then, later when the owners leave for work, she gets bored and just barks. She might howl a little and whine and move her metal food bowl across the ground…my bedroom is so close to their yard and this is getting so frustrating.

I think they do walk her daily before they leave (My dad has seen them)…this is their first dog. I was thinking about definitely telling them about Kongs, and maybe a timed treat dispenser. Is it even possible to train an outdoor dog not to bark using counterconditioning? I know they are gone most of the day, but she barks a lot when they are home, too. Can they use the same technique that I am using with Gracie?

Maybe I can get them one of Victoria's books?

I'm wondering if you have any recommendations.

Thank you! I'll update later and tell you how it's going with the counterconditioning.
Last edited by equestrian2024 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sanna
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by Sanna »

You could keep a lead on her, but because she's got separation issues as well I'd be inclined to want to reward her for choosing to be away from you, even if it's just across the room- you could toss a small handful of treats in her direction, doesn't matter if she gets up to eat them. At this stage tho, with your dog, I'd say just do what works best for you ;)

I don't know the scientifically accurate definitions but both your examples of desensitation with the horses and the shoes are spot on. It's about developing a neutral response to something if you're exposed to it more and more (same way we do, say with violence on TV- we see so much of it that over time we become desensitised..)
Counter conditioning is so much more powerful, because by pairing the negative/ scary thing with something positive/ rewarding it actually changes the emotional response- not just to neutral but actually feeling good about something that was previously upsetting. The food reward means feel-good chemicals are released in the dogs brain, so over time the Bad Thing start to be associated with Good Things Happening and therefore Feeling Good. At the same time it also changes behaviour, because the dog is being rewarded for doing what you want it to do (being quiet, focusing on you, not lunging/barking etc..), and when a behaviour is rewarding the dog will try to do it more and more ;)

As for the dog next door, sort term I think you might want to invest in some ear plugs :D I'll link you to our recommended reading thread, some great suggestions there both for you (Ali Brown's 'Scaredy Dog' might be a good one for you) and them- but to offer any further advise we'd need a lot more info- you could always suggest they join the forum tho :) I would try to speak to them tho, with a friendly approach- they might not even be aware of the barking if it happens when they're out, and it could be as simple as blocking the dogs view of the street or providing it with a comfortable, relaxing place inside instead. Unfortunately, hounds do like to 'talk'..

Here you go: https://positively.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11503

Also, have a look at Kikopups YouTube tutorials, she is excellent and you'll get lots of ideas for things to do with Gracie- tricks as well but off the top of my head look at her Capturing Calmness https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLF26F ... esm2OpE_2c and also her Positive Interrupter https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZy ... ode=NORMAL could be good for you guys (love that one). She also has some great ones for later on, when you start working on the walking and separation issues.

Your instincts are great and I think you'll do really well with Gracie (just make sure to go at her pace and resist trying to do too much at once.) You sound like you're very patient and tuned in to her :D
equestrian2024
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by equestrian2024 »

Hi Sanna, thank you so much for posting those resources (video links, threads). I haven't had a chance to look through all of it yet, but the video I did see (Positive Interrupter) is such a great idea! I am definitely going to try that with Gracie.

Ok, I wasn't even thinking about throwing treats on the floor because we have unsealed hardwood floors, so throwing meat on the floor isn't going to work :( But I think if she develops more separation anxiety issues because I have to keep her closer to me, I'll have to deal with that later. I know I said she always chooses to be in the same room as us...I've been thinking about it and that isn't always true..occasionally she will stay in one room if we move to another room. But she usually does like to be in the same room as us.

Gracie has been doing so well! She hasn't attacked the door or even gone totally crazy about the mailman since I've started this training. It does help that I am now keeping her on my lap in a room that is on the opposite side of the house from that terrier dog. :) But she definitely hears him and all the other dogs going crazy. She just doesn't react like she did before. She is actually more interested in eating the pieces of meat I've got. ;) We will work up to being in the room where the front door is located. I know it's only been a few days, but I am so happy at her progress. And I hope those cortisol and adrenaline levels are starting to decrease.

Edited to say that today the mail came early and Gracie and I were in the room with the front door. Luckily, I had a bag of tasty chicken with me! She started to shake and go off. I put her on my lap, but I made it so she could jump off at any time. I grabbed chicken and put it in front of her face really quickly. She ate the chicken! I gave her chicken until the terrier next door stopped barking (the mailman goes to his house after ours) and she stayed with me eating chicken! This is totally unbelievable. After I put her down, I kept feeding her chicken and she stayed with me even though she could have run towards the front door. After the neighborhood dogs stopped barking, she did run to the door once, but I called her back and she came back to eat one more piece of chicken. :) Also, when she did run to the door, it was more to check things out than to attack the door. She didn't run at it growling, barking and tensed up like she usually does. And I was able to call her back! That just never would have happened before we started this training!

I have yet to do the mailbox training, so I'm sure that will really help with her reaction to the mail drop-off as well.

I'm also working with her on the noise counterconditioning throughout the day. I don't think she is associating the noise with a treat yet, but that may take awhile, I suppose.

My aunt has even seen a difference in Gracie. She was telling me about some problems she's having with her dogs and I pointed her to Victoria's website. Who knows? She may even join the forum! We'll see...I talked to my neighbors about their dog and I am going to give them Victoria's book and point them towards the website, too.

Thank you for all of your help. I really appreciate it. I am so glad there are positive training resources out there like this forum and Victoria's website.
equestrian2024
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by equestrian2024 »

Hi, I've run into a little problem with the doorbell training. I've tried to take her outside on the porch and knock on the door, but as soon as she gets out the door, she cannot listen at all...I've even put chicken right in front of her face and she ignores it. She's really stimulated even when right outside the door on the porch. So I brought her right inside the door and tried knocking on the door from the inside. Is that the right thing to do? And then move out to the porch? Can you give me some advice for getting her to focus on me outside? I am going to try that positive interrupter training, but that might take quite awhile. I guess I need to just go at her pace...


The good news is that she does somehow seem a lot calmer...for instance, we went to my grandma's house today and usually she whines all the way there. She actually was quiet for most of the ride and only whined a bit. Also, she usually goes crazy when I park the car. Today, she was alert, but quiet so I gave her some chicken. I kept giving her chicken all the way in the house and she actually was mostly quiet! She usually whines and shrieks loudly all the way into the house. I've noticed that while she does react to noise and other triggers, she seems to not react as "fiercely" (if that makes any sense). She may whine, but only a little, whereas before she whined like crazy for a really long time. Maybe that's because her stress hormone levels are decreasing? I'm not sure, but she's definitely not acting as crazy as she did before and even my grandma noticed!
Dibbythedog
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by Dibbythedog »

Yes, thats fine . There's no need to take her out onto the porch at all. Next step could be , just open the door slightly and slip your hand out and knock on the front.
We give suggestions and you can adapt them to your circumstances. :)

How is it going with the mail box training?

Really pleased to hear of her improved behaviour , the way you described her being aware but less reactive , thats good and shows great progress so well done both of you . Dog behaviour is nature and nurture , if she is a nervy dog she may never be totally confident or relaxed in all circumstances but I am impressed by how quickly she has responded to training.

One of my favourite books is How Dogs learn by birch and bailey . I refer to it all the time .
Sanna
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by Sanna »

equestrian2024 wrote:Hi, I've run into a little problem with the doorbell training. I've tried to take her outside on the porch and knock on the door, but as soon as she gets out the door, she cannot listen at all...I've even put chicken right in front of her face and she ignores it. She's really stimulated even when right outside the door on the porch. So I brought her right inside the door and tried knocking on the door from the inside. Is that the right thing to do? And then move out to the porch? Can you give me some advice for getting her to focus on me outside? I am going to try that positive interrupter training, but that might take quite awhile. I guess I need to just go at her pace...
Rethink: how about you bring her to the back of the house (more distance) and get someone else to knock (they might have to start by tapping very quietly or on the inside, but I'm sure you'll make quick progress- it just means you'll need someone else to help you).
As for being outside- I would work on this by simply playing the waiting game. Grab some chicken, a book or your iPad, and your dog and go sit on the porch. You might have to start just inside the door even, if she's too worked up just being on the porch. Then you can just sit with her. Don't expect anything, don't ask her to do anything, just sit quietly or read your book whilst keeping an eye on her (I would have her lead on so she has to stay somewhat close tho). Wait and see what happens. Reward any hint of relaxation/ attention/ behaviours that you like; such as sniffing, looking at you, sitting quietly looking around etc. If she decides she wants to go explore a little I'd let her. Just don't push her, and reward any attention on you really well. Alternatively you can give her a really yummy stuffed Kong and hopefully she'll decide to settle next to you and work on that which in turn will be rewarding her being and feeling calm :)
The good news is that she does somehow seem a lot calmer...for instance, we went to my grandma's house today and usually she whines all the way there. She actually was quiet for most of the ride and only whined a bit. Also, she usually goes crazy when I park the car. Today, she was alert, but quiet so I gave her some chicken. I kept giving her chicken all the way in the house and she actually was mostly quiet! She usually whines and shrieks loudly all the way into the house. I've noticed that while she does react to noise and other triggers, she seems to not react as "fiercely" (if that makes any sense). She may whine, but only a little, whereas before she whined like crazy for a really long time. Maybe that's because her stress hormone levels are decreasing? I'm not sure, but she's definitely not acting as crazy as she did before and even my grandma noticed!
WELL DONE that's progress right there :D
equestrian2024
Posts: 36
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Re: Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

Post by equestrian2024 »

Hi Dibby, thank you for the book recommendation. I'll definitely get that book. I actually haven't done any mailbox training yet. :/ I haven't had anyone available to help me by putting mail in the box.

Thank you for the advice about the doorbell training. I'll try staying inside and reaching my hand around to knock. I think once I open the door even a tiny bit, she's going to lunge forward to go through it though. This could take some work (and time), but think she'll get it!

Sanna, sitting outside with her is a great idea. I don't know why I didn't think of that. I'll definitely try that.

She's been pretty calm and I haven't let her get to the point of going crazy, except one time this week when the mailman surprised us by knocking on the door and leaving a package. She was actually doing very well with the mail drop-off until he actually knocked…I talked to my parents about putting a note on the door, but they haven't okayed anything yet…

However, now that I know about the stress levels, I think one thing that might be increasing her stress in the backyard is our outdoor cat…I probably should have mentioned him before, but I had much bigger problems going on. Gracie does not like him and he doesn't like dogs because he has been chased by many a stray dog (big, scary dogs, so he doesn't like any dogs). But he will walk by to taunt her if she is in her soft pen (a pen with mesh sides so bees can't get in) or on her chair in the backyard. When he does this, she will lash out and bark fiercely…it's way, way less than what she had been doing for the mailman, but I think it probably does increase her stress. She lunges at him and barks till he runs off and then she stops when he's out of sight. It's more of a burst of barking to scare him off when he walks by and then it completely stops after he's past. If she sees him in the yard, she may also start whining and straining at the leash to get to him, too. I always redirect her into the house and she does listen once she gets past him…

A long time ago, when we brought Gracie home, I was reading a dog training site and they said to let the cat scratch at the dog to teach the dog to respect the cat. :( I shouldn't have listened to that advice, but I thought that since Gracie was the new family member, it might teach her to respect him. My cat pawed her a couple times. He didn't hurt her (I didn't let him get that close). But it was enough to make her mad because she lashed out at him. Also, before we found out she was allergic to bees, she used to chase him around the yard. We found out that she wouldn't actually hurt him. She just loves to chase things. One time, she was chasing him, caught up with him (he's old and arthritic) and actually started to run beside him! She looked like she was having a grand old time! Her tongue was hanging out and she had the most happy look on her face! Looking back, I know I shouldn't have ever let her chase him. :(

**Edited to say: I kind of made it sound like we allowed her to chase my cat for fun...to be more clear, she was already running around the yard exploring and he would come out of his hiding place and she would chase him. Of course, I would chase after her and try to get her back, but that was not happening because all she could focus on was chasing the cat. She wouldn't listen to me until he had gone up over the wall. To be clear, I didn't purposely put her outside to chase the cat because she thought it was fun. Nowadays, she can't chase him anyway because she's in her pen. My goal is that she never gets the chance to chase him again. What I meant to say was that I should have prevented any chasing in the first place by putting her on a lunge line or something.**

Do you have any ideas about how I can repair their relationship? This cat has always been an outdoor cat (except when he was a really small kitten) and he freely roams the yard. I can't really control where he goes. I suppose I could put him on a harness, but he might be really stressed out by that. I can't put him inside while she's outside because he likes to pee on things and sneak around the house and get into places he shouldn't be.

They are friendly in certain situations…last winter, some nights got really cold, so my cat would come inside at night. Both of them had their beds in the kitchen and they would sleep side by side (the cat was on a chair and Gracie was on the floor in her bed). To clarify, they didn't sleep all night next to each other. When I went to bed, I left the cat in the kitchen and brought Gracie to my bed where she usually sleeps. Inside the house, I've also fed them bits of meat with one on either side of me (and even with them sitting side by side). Neither of them care that the other is there in this instance. Gracie will walk right past the cat even if he's on the floor (sitting, not moving) if it's nighttime (or if it's daytime but he's on the chair). She is always pretty subdued at nighttime. It's actually the best time to groom her because she's so tired. :)

Gracie seems to be most upset by the cat when she is outside and when he is walking by or running by. Although, I think if he walked by her or ran by her in the house, that would also upset her. He's only allowed in the kitchen, so he mostly just sleeps on the chair all day or night when he's in. When she's outside and he moves past her, that just makes her crazy. She wants to chase him so badly, but she's stuck on a chair (she's on a lunge line so she can jump off the chair, but only go so far) or in a soft pen.

I'm thinking you might say something like try to get her to focus on a treat while he's across the yard, so she associates him with a treat? And move him closer and closer as she can tolerate it? Or redirect her when he does run by? The problem is that she's in a pen…not on a leash. It's not like I can just start walking in the other direction if she starts barking and lunging at the cat…or maybe start out on a leash and when she gets it, move to leaving her in the pen?

I'd appreciate any ideas!

When I move out, I'd love to get a kitten or two, so I'd love some tips on how to introduce her to kittens/cats in a positive way. I want Gracie to be friends with my new cats (or even my current one if that can happen), or at least friendly enough that she won't chase them or go crazy when they walk by. I know this will probably take a lot of work, but my next cats are going to be indoor cats and Gracie is an indoor dog, so I am hoping I can figure something out. I really can't imagine living without a cat…I am planning to have a "cat room" that where they can stay while I'm at work, so that I can be sure everyone is safe while I'm gone.
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