Need Help For Out-of-Control Bichon Frise

[equestrian2024]

i was wondering if anyone here could help me. I have a 4.5 year old Bichon Frise. I rescued her when she was about 8 months old. She came with a ton of emotional issues. I think most of her issues are fear-based and also due to the fact that she was very poorly socialized (if at all) as a young puppy.

The main problem is that she is extremely hypervigilant and reactive. The mailman sets her off daily. As soon as she hears other dogs in the neighborhood barking about the mailman, she is completely uncontrollable and emotional. She growls, barks, and her whole body tenses up. When she hears him coming up to our house, she charges at the door and scratches and attacks it. She has shredded our draft guard. After he leaves, she grabs a dog toy and attacks it. She seems to have to have something to get her frustration out with. This same scenario happens with the delivery man as well. If a loud truck pulls up in front of the house, (even if it's not a delivery man), it sets her off again. When she is in this emotional state, no amount of "sit", "stay", "wait", etc works. She can do sit, stay, wait, down, etc perfectly inside the house when all is calm. However, the moment anyone comes to the door or she hears someone walking up to our house, she gets into such an emotional state that she cannot listen to me at all. I don't know how to fix this door issue since I think that she thinks she is scaring the people away because they drop off mail (or a package) and leave.

The only thing that helps somewhat is for me to hold her while the mailman is walking around the neighborhood. She whines and shakes, but at least she isn't attacking the door. Unfortunately, I can't do this every day and I need a permanent solution to the problem.

She is relatively calm the rest of the day after the mailman has come. She mostly lounges around and sleeps unless a delivery man or someone else comes to our door. The mailman coming is the big "event" that she waits for each day.

I should also add that she is like this anytime someone knocks at our door. She goes absolutely crazy and attacks the door. She also barks and runs towards the door even when we go to open it to get a package or the mail (even after the mailman is long gone).

She is also very reactive when new people come over. She barks and growls and tenses up. At large family gatherings (Christmas, birthdays, etc), there are lots of unfamiliar people and she has a super tough time. If anyone that she doesn't know well stands up and walks by her, she lunges at them and barks to scare them away. Once they walk by, she lays down again. She does love familiar family members and does not do this to them. She is very sweet and calm with familiar people.

She is terrified of strangers, especially men and boys. She is super reactive on walks, even when I walk her every day. She barks and growls if she sees anyone coming, whether it be a dog or a person. As soon as they walk by, she whines incessantly after them. She seems fine until she sees a person/dog and then it's just craziness. She also lunges after cars or anyone on a bike. I think she is so scared of these people/dogs/cars that she is trying to scare them off.

If anyone could give me some advice, I would really appreciate it. I especially need to fix her mailman/delivery man issue. It is a daily issue that is greatly frustrating my family members since her barking, growling, and "out of control" issues last for about 30-45 minutes every single day while the mailman is on our street. I am also having to work from home during this time taking business calls and I can't even have her in the house anymore while I work because she is so loud. I have been putting her in the garage but now she is starting to scratch at the door. My friends have suggested training methods that are based on punishment/pain, but I am looking for a positive way to fix this. Other than these issues, she is such a sweet, lovely dog and at least taking care of the door issue would be such an improvement in daily life for all of us. I don't want her to be this stressed out every day as well. It can't be good for her.

I am thinking she might need to be desensitized to the door somehow. For instance, maybe having a family member go outside and knock on the door and as soon as she reacts, I take her into another part of the house until she calms down. And then we do it again and again until she is desensitized? I don't know if I am on the right track or not...

[Sanna]

Sorry I haven't got time for a detailed reply right now but someone will be along shortly I'm sure In the meantime, read up on Counter-conditioning- it will help you both enormously. Can you also give us some more details about her typical day please (walks, training, games, her favourite things, what do you feed her, who else lives with her etc- the more detail the better!). Am I right in understanding she does not get walked every day, and if so what is the reason for this (not judging, just asking)?
You are def on the right track- you want to change her emotional response to the doorbell and other scary stuff (this is where counter-conditioning comes in), but also teach her an alternative, so tell us this: what would you like her to do instead (go to bed, sit by the door, go to another room or soemthing else)? The more info you can give the better the experts can help you

[equestrian2024]

Hi Sanna, thank you for your reply. I will look into counter-conditioning. She is on Wellness Core food right now, which is a grain-free food here in the United States. She also has a heaping spoonful of Wellness grain-free canned food mixed with a bit of pumpkin daily (she hates pumpkin so this is the only way I can get her to eat it). She lives with my parents and me while I go to university. Unfortunately, she does not currently get walked every day and I do realize that this is horrible. She gets walked on weekends because 6 days a week I work 10+ hours and I am also in an accelerated university program. However, after last week's craziness, I made some changes to my work schedule and I will be walking her every day starting next week (and of course, she's getting walked today). My parents walk daily and they used to take her with them, but she is so crazy on walks that my mom does not want to take her anymore, so they leave her at home. If I could get her to a place where my parents could take her with them, it would be amazing.

Also my dog pulls like crazy on the leash and that really frustrates my mom. I didn't mention it before because the huge issue is the door issue. I have worked with my dog and gotten her to the point where if she pulls, I stop walking, and then she goes back to my side and we start walking again. If I do this, I can walk her on a slack leash. Of course, as soon as she sees a cat, dog, person, bike, car, etc, she starts pulling and going crazy…

My mom is one of those people who cannot stand when dogs bark constantly (I can tune it out), so that is one huge reason that I need to get the door issues ironed out as soon as possible. My mom doesn't mind occasional barking, but my dog barks for 30-45 minutes straight each day as I have said (and more if we have a delivery that day or if we have someone knock on the door). My dog also whines constantly if she is kept away from the rest of the family. For instance, when I have to put her in the garage so I can make business calls, she whines and/or scratches the door. Her whining is very shrill and my mom can hear it while I'm working in the other room. Before putting her in the garage, we would put her in the kitchen with a baby gate closed all morning before the mailman came. This is because we have no idea when he will come and we don't want her to completely destroy the front door. However, she whines and whines while shut up in the kitchen. (The kitchen is open to the rest of the house and my mom is usually in the next room so my dog is not shut away from us. She knows my mom is sitting right there in the next room. She just wants free run of the house so she can get at the door). I have no idea what to do to get her to stop whining. My mom always tells me to get her to stop whining, but how do you do that? I'm not going to hit her or punish her while she's whining. I think that would make her more stressed. My mom really does enjoy having my dog around though, and I know if we could just stop this daily issue, it would do amazing things for my mom and my dog's relationship. Besides this door issue, whining issue and pulling issue (which is a lot of issues, I know...) my mom really doesn't have any other complaints about my dog. My dog is house-trained and just hangs out most of the day, doesn't chew anything, etc.

My street is pretty busy, too, so I've started driving her to a calm park. Another problem arises, though. She whines constantly the entire way there in the car. My mom hates to ride with me while my dog is in the car because she cannot stand the whining. My dog whines constantly in the car no matter where we are going and that's probably because we sometimes go to the vet and she is absolutely terrified of the vet. We visit family members whom she absolutely adores once a week on during the weekdays and we also take her with us Saturdays to run errands if we are going somewhere that she can go (we never leave her in the car), so she doesn't just go to the vet after riding in the car. Anyway, when I drive to the park (or anywhere), as soon as I park the car, she yelps and cries and whines because she wants to get out. I decided to wait until she is quiet and then open the door and then as soon as she cries, I shut the door, etc. So far, we haven't even gotten out of the car before we run out of time (I've done it on my break from work) and we have to drive home again.

Another part of the story is that my dog is highly allergic to bees. As in, she could die if she gets stung again. We found out she tries to eat bees. She ate one and would have died if we did not live 5 minutes away from an emergency vet. The vet told us to keep her inside at all times (minus walks), so we do. Two days after she ate a bee, I took her outside to potty at 9:30pm and she got stung by a bee (on the lip) that was in the grass apparently. My dog was on a leash and in the grass for approximately 3 minutes. I had no idea that she would run into bees at night. Since that day (3 years ago), she uses potty pads inside or uses her dog potty that is on the patio (away from the grass). She goes outside daily in the evenings to get some fresh air, but cannot run in the grass or explore as she used to.

Since she cannot go outside unsupervised, I play a lot of games with her inside like fetch and she loves her "toy on a stick". She also seems to like to do tricks like "dance", or walking on her hind legs across the house. She has food-dispensing toys that she uses to eat her meals, too. I do know for her mental stimulation she does need to go on a daily walk. I will make the sacrifices and get that going now, too.

As far as her favorite things, I'm not sure what you mean, but she does love to play with her dog toys and she likes the daily canned food. She is food-motivated indoors, but it does not work outdoors at all. I've tried to get her to "sit", "down", "wait" while out in the front yard and she will not listen at all. She might sit for approximately 5-10 seconds before popping up again. She is not interested in food or toys at all when outdoors (even when no dogs or people or cars are nearby). As I've said before, she knows "sit", "wait", "down", "watch me" and will do them perfectly indoors. She is very focused indoors.

Her typical day consists of waking up and going out to potty (on her dog potty), eating her pumpkin/canned food and dry food and playing fetch/toy on a stick. Then she hangs out until the mailman comes. After scaring the mailman away, she sleeps, eats, or plays with toys until it's time to go outside in the evenings. After work, I usually play fetch/toy on a stick with her again.

Like I said, I am going to add a daily walk starting next workweek. I don't think this will help with the door issue at all because I have walked her daily in the past for months and it did absolutely nothing in regards to the mailman/delivery man issue. However I do think that she does need a daily walk for her emotional well-being. so I will be doing that for sure.

I hope this gives a clearer picture of my dog...

[Dibbythedog]

gosh , It must be very over whelming for you all . What is your dogs name?
I have a little chi who works her self into frenzies sometimes so I really sympathise with you .

It sounds like she has become an adrenalin junkie and is not able to calm down at all .
The problem is that every time she kicks off , her body is flooded with hormones such as adrenaline and cortisol , these help her body to prepare for fight or flight when they feel threatened and unfortunately after each incidence e.g the mail man coming , it can take several days for the effects of the hormones to wear off so if another incidence occurs soon after the first , her body is already in a state of arousal and it doesnt take much for her to kick of again .

Its essential that she is stopped from barking and getting stressed which as you have found out , its easier said that done.
Is it possible for you to drive to the quiet park instead of walking in the street? The street is a major source of stress and she's not able to cope it yet. I would let her straight out when you get there , not worry about her being quiet first.
If you mum finds her whining annoying she could listen to music on an ipod .

About the mailman, Again , you need to break the cycle and try to prempt her running to the door , could you have a mail box outside somewhere ? I assume you dont have a hall . Don't open the front door , until she is safetly in another room ,

its late here so will have to sign off now but will get back to you tomorrow.
Alison

[equestrian2024]

Hi Dibbythedog, thank you for your reply. I had no idea that her body is still in a state of arousal from yesterday's mail drop off. No wonder she is so crazy when he comes. This has been going on for years. Monday was a national holiday for us, which means no mail service. It was such a calm, nice day. I don't think Gracie barked even once. I wish every day could be like that.

Do you have any ideas on how to prevent her from actually getting into that state of arousal? We live in L.A. and thus, have a small house…she can still hear everything that goes on at the front door even in the back of the house. I thought about taking her out into the backyard to get her away from the front of the house, but then all the dogs around will be barking…We don't have a mail slot. There is a mailbox right outside the front door and we can't move it.

I've often thought that I should just take her to doggie day care during the time when the mailman comes around the neighborhood. However, it appears that she wasn't socialized with other dogs as a young puppy. If she does somehow meet another dog that she feels comfortable with, she sniffs and sniffs and sniffs their behind FOREVER. She will not stop. She sniffs until the other dog is like "Ok, stop now". I have no idea why she does this and I'm sure it won't be appreciated at doggie daycare. As you can probably tell, this is my first dog and I don't know much doggie relations. (I know much more about horses than I know about dogs, having had horses for several years).

This Christmas, we went over to a family member's house and one of my cousins decided to bring her dog without telling me (granted, she probably didn't know she needed to tell me). Gracie has always come to my family member's house at every holiday. And she has always been the only dog there. Well, she waltzes into the house like always and is immediately confronted with a dog which I didn't even know was there. She did her usual yelping, shrieking, growling, barking, etc that she does when she meets an unfamiliar dog. It was horrible. I took her straight out of the house and down the street, but she couldn't even go near the house without shrieking. When she does that, it sounds as though she is being terribly hurt, even though no one is even touching her. It was very embarrassing, especially when it was my dog having the issues. My cousin's dog goes to doggie daycare daily and wasn't even fazed. She never made a peep. I had to go into the backyard and sit with Gracie while the other dog was indoors. At one point, my grandmother wanted to hold her so I gave her to my grandmother and went into the other room. Next thing I know, my grandmother has her outside meeting the other dog. I run out there to stop her and the dogs seem to be getting along fine. My dog was sniffing around in the grass (granted she's not used to being in the grass so it was extra interesting) and they were just walking around. One thing that my friend pointed out to me (and I'm not sure if it's true or not) is that maybe my dog is extra reactive when I'm on the other end of the leash because she feels as though she is protecting me too? I don't want her to be protective of me of course, but both my grandmother and my cousin were walking my dog around with the other dog and there were zero problems. The dogs were even ignoring each other at some points.

However, when we did bring the dogs inside, the other dog (who is actually a Japanese Chin puppy), did jump at her a couple times throughout the day but without growling or barking. It freaked Gracie out and of course started the whole thing over. The Japanese Chin was also staring at her a lot and it seemed to set Gracie off at points. I'm not sure if it was a sign of aggression or not…like a stare down…Gracie basically whined or barked or was stressed until the other dog went home. By then, less of my family members were there as well and she relaxed and enjoyed herself the rest of the night.

Anyway, with these sort of issues, I doubt she would be welcome at any doggie daycare, although socializing with dogs is what she needs.

If you (or anyone) have any ideas on how to prevent her from getting into such a state, I'm all ears. I've watched a lot of It's Me or The Dog episodes and I know that there is hope. I just have no idea where to start or what to do with the door issue. Everyone I know either says, "She's a dog. She's going to freak out about the mailman" or "Try a shock collar". And my mom just says "Make her stop!" I have no idea how to "make her stop". My mom is always saying that I need to go to basic obedience training at Petsmart to "get Gracie trained". But to me, this not a training issue. It seems to be an emotional issue. And I don't think learning "sit", "stay" and "down" at Petsmart is going to help me. She already knows all the commands. She just gets way too emotional and crazy when she's feeling insecure/scared.

Just curious, when I drive her to the park, why should I let her out when she's completely freaking out and shrieking? She shrieks and yelps to get out of the car no matter the destination, including the vet, family members' houses, the park, etc. I just don't want to reinforce crazy behavior. Yes, I can definitely only walk her at the calm park for awhile.

[Sanna]

Theres a lot going on here and I really feel for you both. I think the best approach will be to break down the issues and start working on one or two at the time (tho they are interconnected) so you're not completely overwhelmed. Dibbythedog makes a very important point, imagine how hard it would be to even just function normally if you were permanently stressed out and on edge. Grace sounds like she's very stressed and anxious most of the time.
Consistency, patience and dedication on your part is going to be really important- would your mom and dad be willing to work with Grace also, and do as instructed you think? That will be a great help.

It's really important to try and eliminate stress and triggers for a while. Really have a good think about the mailman thing- you can find a way around it Is it the doorbell that's the trigger, or the man approaching the house, or the mailbox? If you can't find away around that (another mailbox, mail delivered to neighbour?), would you be able to take her out somewhere at mail time? I agree doggie daycare is not the place for her btw. You can also put a not on your door asking people not to ring the doorbell but rather call your phone, and be patient until you are ready to open the door?

I'd also like to know if she's crate trained?

You say she won't take treats or listen to commands outside the house. This is an indication she's really stressed out. If you bring some chicken or cheese out and just stand in the drive with her, will she take it? In the garden? Also remember that dogs don't generalise very well, so even if she knows a command perfect in the house does not mean she knows it in a different setting- that has to be trained for Though I wouldn't worry about that right now, as you rightly say it's not obedience that's the concern right now but helping your dog feel safe and more relaxed.

More questions, sorry, but bear with us we're asking so we can understand and help better

[equestrian2024]

Hi Sanna, I think my parents may be open to working with Gracie…both of them are kind of at their wit's end about this door issue and they just want to her to stop. I think I will be doing most of the training, although if I talk to them, they may agree to help out. I'm not sure. My mom wants me to find a natural calming remedy (over the counter natural pills) for her, but I do not want to medicate her even with the natural stuff. She'll need pills 6 days a week because of the mailman! She can't be on pills for the rest of her life. Well, I guess she can, but I don't want to do that unless she needs it. I did try a natural pill once for Fourth of July (lots of fireworks) and it did absolutely nothing for her.

The reason I thought about doggie daycare is that I have to work at the exact time that the mailman is going around. I cannot drive somewhere with her while he's walking around the neighborhood because I have to be working.

Unfortunately, I think the trigger is not the mailman approaching the house or the mailbox. It's the terrier dog next door. As soon as he starts barking in the late morning to early afternoon, Gracie knows that the mailman is on our street and it's all downhill from there. She gets especially upset when the mail is dropped in the box, but the first trigger is the dog next door. That dog barks at EVERYTHING all day. But Gracie only usually cares if it's about the mail. She may bark throughout the day after he barks, but it's not that bad and she usually stops. Mail time is entirely different. She barks and barks and barks. She may stop for a few seconds, but she is alert and listening and then barks again.

She is not crate trained. I think she had a very bad experience with crates somewhere along the line before we got her. The first time we put her in a crate, she completely went crazy. She shrieked, yelped, chewed the bars, scratched the bottom of the crate with her claws, scratched the bars on the walls of the crate, etc. We used to have to leave her in the crate when we were away and she would freak out every time. Then we started leaving her in the kitchen with the baby gate up because she was much calmer when we did this. But then she started chewing the wall and scratching the doorways…one day, we forgot to put her in the kitchen and she had full reign of the house while we were gone. We came back and there was no damage anywhere…we have started leaving her free in the house when we leave and she is so much happier. She never even cries or follows us to the door when we leave. We don't leave her for very long and she seems to be much calmer and I haven't found any damage in the house yet (after months of doing this). Recently, my mom has started to say that we have to crate her again (or put her in the kitchen) because she might attack the door if we get a package or someone comes to the door when we are gone. I really don't want to put her in the kitchen again because I know that at some point she will just start chewing the wall, which will make my mom very upset. And I don't want to crate her because it seems like such a stressful thing for her. So that's another problem, I suppose.

I do think that this is all interconnected, as you said…I wish I could get her out of the house during the mail time, but I really have no one to take her during that time and I can't leave the house with her. If somehow I found a place to take her for awhile, what is the next step? Door training when she's calm enough to handle it? Even if we take the daily mailman issue out of her life for awhile, isn't she still getting set off (and flooding her body with adrenaline and cortisol) by the dog next door? Or will it not be as bad because the big source of all the adrenaline is gone?

Is there any way I can do door training beforehand (or something) and help her cope without taking her out of the house during the time when the mailman is here? If I started working on door training when the mailman is not around, my mom may be willing to continue the training for me when the mailman is here and I am working. I thought about having someone come to the door and knock and then when Gracie goes crazy, taking her into the back part of the house until she calms down and then doing it again...if I do that (or something like that) so that she knows that when she goes crazy, she just gets brought back into the back of the house, would it help for my mom to do that when the mailman comes? Or is taking her out of the house for awhile the only option?

She did have a breakthrough when we had Christmas at our house this year. She always gets way too excited when my aunt arrives at the door. She cries, yelps, whines to get to her. This time, I decided that as soon as Gracie started crying for my aunt, I would take her into the back bedroom to calm down. I did so and back and forth we went. After about 15 minutes, we were able to walk into the room where my aunt was and Gracie was completely calm! It was seriously a Christmas miracle I was amazed that Gracie actually learned to be calm!

She seems to be able to eat treats and listen in the backyard. The front yard is where she becomes too stressed. I can try to bring some treats out onto the driveway in the front to see if she pays any attention to them. Usually, as soon as we get out in the front, she is already not listening to me because she just wants to pull on the leash and get down the street.

I didn't know that she may not know the commands outside when she does know them inside...that is interesting. I will have to start working with her in the backyard first.

[Dibbythedog]

Lovely post, Sanna. The trigger with the postman seems to be the neighbourhood dogs barking as he or she goes along the road.

Equestrian, Has Gracie been spayed?

Even though Gracie is your first dog , you have a better understanding of her than most other dog owners do of their dogs. Its a real learning curve with a problem dog. I'd been around dogs for years and I didn't know about the adrenalin
thing either until I became involved with a friend's reactive dog ,Barney a few years ago and found a lot of info in books and from on line behaviourists. I learnt a lot from barney and it has greatly helped with the dogs I adopted since then .

First , Have hope , it can take a few weeks at least to see any progress especially as shes been acting like this for years but if you persist you will see more manageable behaviour.
The hopeful signs are that she is able to be calm when there is no stimulus , i.e when the mailman doesnt come , she is calm and sleeps . When you hold her when the mail man comes she stops barking . She met another dog , the jap chin and walk around the garden with her . They might seem small things to you but you can build up on this. Training or desensiting works best by doing it in tiny increments .

There so much I want to say , its hard to know where to start usually if you consult a Behaviourist , you have a two hour session to discuss everything and some may come to your house to get a better understanding and get the big picture, they would talk to all the family too . (BTW I'm not a professional behaviourist)

I expect by now you're thinking , hurry up just tell me what to do

I just want to go over some points you have made in your post first to give you a better understanding of her behaviour. .

You said that at large family gatherings she barks and growls and lunges at people walking by her. In this type of situation, she is being overfaced , Rather like horses learning to jump and the jumps are too big. She needs to avoid being in this situation where she cant cope and have a safe place away from the crowd.

You said that your friends suggest punishment pain methods and you are right to say no to this. Well done .
Emotions drive behaviour and adding fear and pain to her already negative emotions will just increase her stress and deepen her fear . Say , you decide to use bark collar that shocks , she will associate the shock with not only the mailman but also the area where she was shocked and be more fearful of them .

About leaving her in the kitchen , this is behind a dog gate ? Does she havea bed and toys in there. If she is not usually left in the kitchen , it would seem a big change to her and she would need to get used to it . I can explain how to do this later.

You said She is food motivated indoors. you can use food to change her emotions and her behaviour. The food needs to be something of very high value and so enjoyable , something that is more rewarding to her than barking . Dried liver, peanut butter are examples . Same with toys . Does she respond to squeaky toys , they can distract ahighly aroused dog sometimes.

Doggy daycare , i think she would find this too much . It depends on how well run it is but even if you find a good one , i dont think itsa good idea.

She sniffs butts for too long . As you are aware this is inappropriate behaviour , but you can intervene here and call her away before the other dog gets fed up .

The carry on she makes when she meets other dogs , my little girl dog Libby acts aggressively to other dogs but once she gets to know them she is fine . She goes through this with most dogs she meets. It is rather embarrassing but if you explain to the dogs owners they tend to be helpful .
You can over come this behaviour of Gracies , and she will make friends with suitable dogs . Ones that are laid back or not too reactive.

Next thing I know, my grandmother has her outside meeting the other dog. I run out there to stop her and the dogs seem to be getting along fine. My dog was sniffing around in the grass (granted she's not used to being in the grass so it was extra interesting) and they were just walking around. One thing that my friend pointed out to me (and I'm not sure if it's true or not) is that maybe my dog is extra reactive when I'm on the other end of the leash because she feels as though she is protecting me too?

Ok , the grass here was extra interesting to gracie . This is an example of finding the right reward (or reinforcer) to change behaviour .
I dont think your doig is protecting you . It might be your grandmother was more relaxed around gracie . If you havea reactive dog like gracie , its easy to get tense or stressed and she will pick that up .

[Dibbythedog]

Just curious, when I drive her to the park, why should I let her out when she's completely freaking out and shrieking? She shrieks and yelps to get out of the car no matter the destination, including the vet, family members' houses, the park, etc. I just don't want to reinforce crazy behavior. Yes, I can definitely only walk her at the calm park for awhile.

Sorry , I missed this bit.

If this were her only problem then I would agree withyou about not letting her out of the car until she is quiet and calm .

At the moment we want to try to minimise her stress and frustration. Making her wait when she is so excited and then you running out of time and she goes home without a walk or only a short one , will add to it .

This link explains how stress stacks
https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... s-in-dogs/

The problem of her behaviour in the car can be dealt with later . Sanna mentioned, at this stage its best to tackle a couple of her worst behaviours first and not do too much at once .

[Dibbythedog]

Unfortunately, I think the trigger is not the mailman approaching the house or the mailbox. It's the terrier dog next door. As soon as he starts barking in the late morning to early afternoon, Gracie knows that the mailman is on our street and it's all downhill from there. She gets especially upset when the mail is dropped in the box, but the first trigger is the dog next door. That dog barks at EVERYTHING all day. But Gracie only usually cares if it's about the mail. She may bark throughout the day after he barks, but it's not that bad and she usually stops. Mail time is entirely different. She barks and barks and barks. She may stop for a few seconds, but she is alert and listening and then barks again.

Sorry more questions
Does your front door open into the hall or into the living room. You need to prevent her running to the front door if you can .
You might need to keep her in certain rooms with you or your mum , around the time the mail man comes.
I dont know what you have tried already . This is a suggestion , other forum members might have their own ideas and you can have a think about which ideas will suit you best .

When you become aware that the dog next door is barking due to the mail man or you see gracie getting ready to kick off , i would pick her up and hold her or ask your mum to pick her up. This has worked before. Will she let you pick her up easily? You might have to put a little soft harness on her . You can hold her and feed her treats or hold a toy until the mailman has been and gone and no dogs are barking.

(and flooding her body with adrenaline and cortisol) by the dog next door? Or will it not be as bad because the big source of all the adrenaline is gone?

I dont think it will be as bad, she doesnt react that much to his barking at other times because no event happens after it , there is no consequence so its not triggering off any thing .
he just barks and shes become accustomed to it

Is there any way I can do door training beforehand (or something) and help her cope without taking her out of the house during the time when the mailman is here? If I started working on door training when the mailman is not around, my mom may be willing to continue the training for me when the mailman is here and I am working. I thought about having someone come to the door and knock and then when Gracie goes crazy, taking her into the back part of the house until she calms down and then doing it again...if I do that (or something like that) so that she knows that when she goes crazy, she just gets brought back into the back of the house, would it help for my mom to do that when the mailman comes? Or is taking her out of the house for awhile the only option?

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This is just my opinion . If this were me I would split this into two. I would stop her barking as above and running to the door when the postman come and ask your mum to do the same thing when you are not there .

You can start to desensitise her to the post coming through the door when gracie is by the door and only you or your parents put the post through and make sure she knows its you . Does she have a harness , its easier for training . i would put her on a lead , stand with her in the hall , have the front door slightly ajar and let her see one of you put the post through . See how she reacts . if she is quiet , feed her a treat . The treat will reinforce good behaviour and will make the mail appearing through the letter box a good thing . A clicker would be a good training tool here. Repeat this when you can and if she is ok with it , the step would be one of you posting the mail with the door closed .

This is shaping her behaviour. Thats the start, if you do this often enough , she shouild start to calm down and not react so much , once she is calmer in these situations , you can get her to focus on you and teach her something else like Settle .

[Sanna]

Edited to add: I've cross-posted with Dibby so apologies if we are going over the same things..

Well done for the way you handled the situation with your aunt When a dog is over threshold (too excited/ getting tense/barking/ lunging/ unable to take treats etc) you have to either remove the dog or the trigger. If it's excitement (wanting to greet your aunt) by removing Gracie you give her time and space to calm down, and teach her that she gets to greet when she is calm; so that in itself is the reward. If it's being nervous/ scared (seeing a man on the street for example) you remove the dog from the Scary by turning around or crossing the street, teaching your dog that you will keep her safe and get her outta there before she feels she have no option but to react

I have some ideas I think might help (others will correct me if I'm talking out of my bum ). Whilst you're working on this please do try your absolute hardest to find a way around the mailman, it's going to be an awful lot harder if you can't; think of an alcoholic who wants to stop drinking- doing it in rehab is going to be a hell of a lot easier than doing it in a bar.. If you cannot get her out of the house at mail time, could you or your mom commit to taking her out in the garden and staying there with her when you think the mailman is coming until he is gone?

Right, so if the terrier is the trigger and he barks a lot without Gracie necessarily going nuts, that's great news, it gives you something to work with This is where counter conditioning comes in. This is basically pairing something the dog dislikes/ reacts to with something she really loves, thereby turning Bad Things into Good Things- it is so great because it doesn't require the dog to do anything initially so there is no pressure on the dog but at the same time changes it's emotional response. This is a popular analogy: you're petrified of spiders. Then one day, you see a spider and immediately your partner gives you $100. Every time you see a spider, they give you $100! Wow! Bet you soon start feeling a bit better about those spiders, maybe even look forward a little bit to maybe seeing one! Your emotional response has changed. Then one day, after weeks of this happening, there's a spider but you don't immediately get your $100. What do you do? Do you go back to freaking out cos there's a spider, or do you go find your partner to get your damn $100?

So, find out what Gracie goes absolutely nuts for. Do not use her normal food in the beginning, this is going to be hard for her so you need something super special. Real stuff is generally better than shop bought treats- cheese, steak, sausage, liver, bacon maybe?
You need to get a treat pouch and have it on you at all times, packed with doggie crack (you can reduce her meals during this time so she doesn't get chubby) Get your mom one too
This is a bit tricky cos dogs can hear so much better than us, but do your best- EVERY time you hear a noise from that terrier (or any noise at all if you want) you IMMEDIATELY and rapidly give Gracie some treats. Some people also add a cue such as 'Yay! Noise!' She cannot bark and eat at the same time, and if you manage to do this consistently you should soon see her response to the noise change- she'll start feeling better about the noise and also start looking to you for her reward instead or before deciding to bark at it. And if you or your mom also takes her in the garden at mail time and make treats rain from the sky, she might very well soon find that more worthwhile than shouting at the mailman. Does that make sense?

You can apply the same technique to many of the other issues you've mentioned- I would simultaneously start working on the doorbell- just a minute or two several times a day. Again, during this time, do your best to prevent anyone ringing the bell and taking you by surprise. Simply ring the bell with Gracie right there with you, and immediately treat. Once you can ring the bell and delay for a moment with her looking expectantly at you for a treat rather than barking you can have someone else ring the bell, go on different rooms etc, but it's important that you go at her pace and don't push for too much too soon (human nature..).

You can do this on the car also, beginning with maybe just putting her in the car, giving a treat, then getting her out again. You can also try feeding her some meals in the car, or just hanging out in the car with her enjoying a chew or a stuffed Kong. Then do the same with the engine turned on, then driving around the block (you'll need a helper for this in the beginning), slowly building up to her hopefully feeling much better about the car.

If you work on this for a few minutes at the time several times a day, really make an effort to reduce her stress and manage her triggers; and make sure she gets plenty of games, fun and training in the house and garden otherwise, I'll get back to walks and that later. I don't want to completely overwhelm you and others might have more to add
You sound like a lovely, caring owner and I really hope we can help you help her

[equestrian2024]

Thank you so much Dibbythedog and Sanna! You have really given me hope about this whole thing. I don't know anyone local who believes in positive training techniques, so this is really helpful.

I wrote out a whole response to Dibbythedog earlier today and then realized that Sanna had replied as well. So here is Dibby's portion:

Yes, Gracie was spayed when she was still a puppy. I do realize that I can stop her from sniffing other dogs before it gets to a boiling point. I do end up pulling her away before the other dog gets upset. The most it has come to is that the other dog will stop sniffing her and look at her like, "Ok, you can stop now...why are you still sniffing me?" Why is she doing this? What does it mean? Do you think she has trouble interpreting other dogs' communication signals?

I will talk to my mom about holding her while the mailman comes around. It might take some convincing because my mom hates when she whines (her whine is extremely shrill and even gets to me every once in a while and I can tune out anything!) and she will whine the entire time you are holding her, even if she doesn't bark. :/

Currently, my mom isn't on the best terms with Gracie…Repetitive barking and whining really gets to my mom and that is what Gracie does every single day. My mom never gets a break from it. That's why I thought about taking her to doggie daycare. I know my mom really does love Gracie deep down. When all is calm, she talks to her, gives her bits of chicken and bacon, holds her, brings her outside to sit in the garden with her while she gardens, she puts a jacket on her when it's cold out and always seems to be worried about her being cold, etc. But if Gracie chews the wall in the kitchen, scratches the garage door during mail time or attacks the front door, it pretty much erases all the other good things from my mom's perspective (at least until a few hours after the mailman comes; my mom seems to bond with Gracie at night when all is calm). My mom doesn't have to walk Gracie since she pulls and acts like crazy. I walk her. I try to minimize all the other complaints, like the whining if I can. But unfortunately, my mom does have to deal with a daily emotional explosion from my dog. Since this has been happening for years, my mom is pretty much over it.

But I will definitely ask to see if she might try holding her…Some background info on my mom and dogs…my mom ultimately made the choice for us to rescue Gracie. My dad and I knew it had to be her choice. My mom is NOT a dog person. She is a cat person. And a bunny person. And a horse person. Notice how her favorite animals are on the quiet side? (She doesn't like cats who meow incessantly either. Our cats have always been quiet).

She always said she never wanted a dog. Until Gracie came along and stole my mom's heart. I'm still not sure how my mom agreed to rescue her. But this little, bony, gray, matted dog crawled into my mom's lap and the rest is history. We didn't even know what kind of dog Gracie was at first because she was so matted. She definitely did not look her best. But at her core, despite all of her emotional issues, Gracie is a total sweetheart. And my mom saw that and here we are. I want to show my mom what an amazing dog Gracie can be. I hope positive training techniques and reducing her stress level can be a turning point for Gracie.

We don't have a mail slot or a hall, but she can hear the mail hit the bottom of the mailbox right outside the front door. She can also hear the mailman coming up to the mailbox. I will definitely try having one of us go outside and put mail into the box while she watches.

She's totally fine with us picking her up. She really is a patient, sweet dog when it comes to picking her up, putting jackets on her, grooming her, brushing her teeth, etc. I can definitely put a harness on her for the training at the mailbox. If she's not quiet when she sees one of us put the mail into the box, what do I do? Just keep repeating it until she is calm?

I will definitely start letting her straight out of the car when we get to that park. Thank you for that link. It is definitely informative, but also very concerning…I feel like reducing her anxiety is going to be a major uphill battle. I had no idea all the adrenaline and cortisol was just piling up. No wonder she is a reactive basket case in so many situations.

Thank you so much for your suggestions, Dibby.

Sanna, thank you so much for explaining counterconditioning and giving me a bunch of suggestions. I will start with giving Gracie a treat when the dog next door barks. I will also try to keep her on my lap during the mail drop-off tomorrow. I hope she won't whine too loudly during my business calls. A few months ago, I would actually hold her on my lap wrapped in a towel or in a cloth pet carrier and the whining was still present, but minimized during the mail drop offs. I will try to do that again. She seems to love being wrapped up in the towel. I have a Thundershirt for her, but it didn't work. I think that's because I didn't try any behavior modification. I just put the shirt on her.

It makes total sense that I need to remove Gracie from scary things before she gets to that reaction point. I will definitely try this. I think what you and Dibby are saying is that I need to try to never let her get to that exploding point again if I can help it. Right? That way that buildup of cortisol and adrenaline starts to actually dissipate?

I haven't talked to my mom about any of this yet, so tomorrow, I am going to try to put her on my lap wrapped in a towel. I will try to see if she will go out into the garden with Gracie during mail drop-off soon. First I think I need to start with giving her treats when the dog next door barks. I think starting with the garden training or the doorbell training is too much for Gracie right now. I think giving her chicken when the dog next door barks is a great starting point since she's less reactive then, anyway. When she starts to look at me for chicken instead of wanting to bark, I think that would be a great time to start doorbell training and/or garden training during mail drop-off. Am I on the right track?

Regarding the doorbell training, I should start by bringing her out onto the porch and knock on the door with her standing beside me on the porch?

Thank you again Dibby and Sanna! I really, really appreciate your help. I'm actually very excited to get started and I hope she responds to these techniques even if it takes a lot of time. I am prepared for it to be a long-haul. My first horse was a previously abused mustang and it was definitely a long-haul with her. She wouldn't even let me touch her face for the first few weeks I owned her. And that was after she had been tamed by previous owners. Unfortunately, she ran into abusive owners somewhere (she had "whip marks" on her ears and a whole lot of emotional/spooky issues that are not associated with her breed at all). I had never seen a horse that scared before and I never have since either. However, she ended up being this amazing horse. She would do anything for me. She was a total sweetheart at her core and just wanted to be loved and safe. She never completely got over her fear of people, but she did learn to trust me. I was her "person" and I loved it. I wouldn't have chosen another horse even if I had known what I was getting myself into. I am very patient with my pets and I understand that there are no quick fixes when it comes to rescues.

If my mom can start to see progress, even if it is minimal, it would be so amazing. I'm willing to work hard at this, so I am very hopeful.

[Dibbythedog]

Edited to add: I've cross-posted with Dibby so apologies if we are going over the same things..

I have some ideas I think might help (others will correct me if I'm talking out of my bum ).

I've been cross posting too ! It takes me so long to write a post, sometimes an hour that I'm not surprised to find several other new posts when I've uploaded it.
I dont think you're talking out of your bum , you post had a lot of good info and explainations . Desensitsing for the car as you suggested , that worked with for my jap chin and the bath , I used to feed her in it, she loved her food and could wait to get in .

Same for me , correct me if I'm talking out of my bum . I'm hoping that maybe some more regulars can chip in too

I've printed out this thread so i can read back through it easily and check whats already been said . Its 15 A4 pages long so far .

[Dibbythedog]

Equestrain said

I can definitely put a harness on her for the training at the mailbox. If she's not quiet when she sees one of us put the mail into the box, what do I do? Just keep repeating it until she is calm?

Thats a good question .
I would expect her to be excited to start with because the front door is open and she might think she is going for a walk or wonder whats happening, I wouldn't expect her to stay still or be calm . Perhaps by quiet I meant not frenzied barking! so give her treat for not barking and not worry is she is prancing around .
I would repeat putting mail in whether she barks or not , try it for say , three times and then assess the situation and note the changes in her actions , if any . Eg did the barks lessen each time or did she bark more . Hopefully, she wont see the need to bark if it you or your mum or dad putting the post in ,
Your neighbours are going to think you are nuts putting mail in you own mail box. maybe you teach your neighbours jack russel how to be quiet too .

She reacts to the noise of the post falling , could you place something on the bottom to help deaden the noise . Is the flap itself sqeaky or does it give a bang once its released , These things set dogs off too.

[equestrian2024]

Hi Dibby, thanks for your answer. I have another question. What if she whines while we are putting mail in the box? Or if she whines instead of barking while the mailman is going around? Should I treat her even if she is whining? Gracie whines and whines and whines when she is stressed...

I'm not sure if this is a fluke or not, but today, I wrapped her in a blanket and put her on my lap during mail drop-off. She only whined once! She heard the terrier barking, but she didn't react. She shook a little, but didn't bark. Basically, every time I heard a dog bark, I gave her a bit of bacon. I am not sure she associated the bacon with the barking, but that is the least she has ever whined during mail drop-off. And she actually ate the bacon! I half-expected her to not be able to eat it. She is never interested in treats when she is super stressed...I've tried to give her bits of bacon throughout the day today when he barks as well. Sometimes I'm not very fast at it. I just ordered two treat pouches (one for my mom), so that should help.

If I can keep her to just shaking and whining during the mail drop-off instead of completely losing her mind, does this mean that those hormones will start to decrease? Or is the shaking and whining enough to keep them elevated?

I read yours (and Sanna's) suggestions to my mom and she seems open to trying this. She's watched many It's Me or the Dog shows with me and I think she knows it is possible, but maybe not with our dog.

Sanna, I missed the part about simultaneously working on the doorbell training. I will definitely start doing this, too.

Thank you so much (both of you)!