Should I be worried?

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jennageit
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Should I be worried?

Post by jennageit »

Hi Guys,

As you know, I've had a few issues these last few months, and although we're working through them, I have a concern with my Border Collie dog Jock.

He's absolutely brilliant on and off lead, is a fantastic sheep dog (when he was working sheep), is learning to relax and enjoy his time inside, has stopped have a go at our BC female (even though she still tries to wind him up), waits calmly for his food, lets me know when he needs to go outside (if inside with me), and even seems to be overcoming his fear of motorbikes. Oh, and he's starting to relax just the tiniest amount in his training crate. I haven't really pushed that too much lately, I'd much rather he get comfortable in his own time with that one.

Anyway, whilst playing with him the last few days, I've noticed that he is intent on destroying every toy I give him. At the moment, he has 5 different toys that we play with. (I like to keep it interesting and mix it up a bit).

1. An overgrown tennis ball. This ball is just small enough to fit in his mouth, but too big for my boxer or border collie girl. I'll throw it for him, he tears after it at a million miles and hour. 9 times out of 10 he brings it straight back to me, that other 1 time, he gets about halfway back to me and then sets about destroying it. He holds it between his front feet and tries to rip bits off it. So far he's only managed to get some of the fluff off, but only because I've stopped him.
2. A rope with a ball on it. He's already destroyed the ball, and is now starting on the rope. Again, he holds it with his front paws and just rips into it.
3. Plaited rope (about 7" long, 2" wide). This is a new toy for him (I've had it for a long time) and he's almost completely destroyed it already. he doesn't eat anything off it, he just rips it to shreds.
4. Knotted rope - again, he's ripped the ends off it, and is starting to work on the solid section of the knots.

He seems intent of absolutely shredding and destroying any toy we play with. He also does this with his bedding to the point where I am yet to find anything he doesn't rip to shreds. I don't buy him baskets or bedding any more because it lasts an afternoon at most, unless I'm supervising him.

He gets about 3 hours of exercise a day now. My husband takes him out for runs, as does my son, in the paddock. I sit and throw the toys for him in the evenings, which he seems to really enjoy, and it's followed up by a quick brush (he's blowing coat like there's no tomorrow now that the weather has warmed up). I also do training with him throughout the day, which consists of going through everything he already knows, and then I start teaching him something new. He LOVES the training.

So, should I be worried that he seems to feel the need to kill everything? If he ever got his teeth around another living animal (other than the rats), it wouldn't stand a chance. Maybe letting him chase the rats wasn't a good idea, and I've probably made everything worse, but when I sit back and think about it, he's been like this since I first brought him home.

He's never aggressive towards any person, people etc, and only shows signs of aggression towards our other border collie. He plays happily with every other dog he's met, and even when one of my friends staffie growled at thim the other day, he didn't react, just wandered away and found a toy to kill.

What do you think guys?

Jenna

PS. We gave him the job of disposing of the rats for a couple of reasons. 1, we don't bait because we have a lot of wildlife here that prey on the rats, so the risk of secondary poisoning to those animals is high (mainly kookaburras), 2, he hasn't had a job since we had to sell the sheep and he thoroughly enjoys the rats, even if he doesn't find any, and 3, the rats were getting to almost plague proportions. We've always had bush rats here, but they are different from the Euro rats, which started to move in a few months ago.
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elisa
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by elisa »

Hi Jenna,
According to my information in the hunting behavioural lineup killing and shredding are two different behaviours. So it is like a "grab bite" then "kill bite" and then "shredding" chain of events. And herding breeds supposedly should not have the "kill bite" as it would make them bad at herding... (My source is this book by Tuire Kaimio, a Finnish dog behaviourist.) So his tearing stuff up should not really be "killing" and I wouldn't worry too much. Some dogs just love destroying things. Mine also when she gets in the mood.

I would just give him loads of safe things to destroy. Like cardboard boxes filled with toilet rolls with little treats inside. It will make a huge mess but I don't think you will mind much if the dog is happy. :) And at least my pup destroys the things I give her to destroy, not random things so maybe if Jock has lots of things you encourage him to destroy, he won't destroy his bedding and stuff so much.

I've "recycled" lots of my old clothes and sheets and stuff to be dog toys as at one point all Ansa did was destroy so no point buying dog toys... The legs of my old jeans were perhaps the best - just two knots and it's like a bone. And Ansa got really good at opening the knots and me at retying. ;)
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Nettle
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by Nettle »

Tearing things up is a stress relief. He needs more things to rip up. Big cardboard boxes are great (not the sort with staples) big vegetables like cabbages, pumpkins, marrows, as Elisa says, and you can make rippy-uppy toys.

He is doing well but he has to release his stress somehow. Good that he is tearing his toys not your furnishings.


This is nothing to do with killing. My dogs are trained killers (pest control dogs) and never rip up anything, especially not those things they catch - because most go into the food chain and I want 'em whole. :wink:
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ScarletSci
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by ScarletSci »

I don't think there's anything wrong with him being a ratter, since you know there's no poison down.

You said you noticed the toy destruction in the last few days, but also that he's been like this since you got him?

It could very well be anxiety relieving for him to rip into the toys. You need to look at the rest of his body language and behaviour to know. My young ***** absolutely loves destroying things, especially toys, but she's very up and happy as she does so, and will happily include me in the game. I don't worry about her (apart from the expense of constantly replacing toys that is).

My mum's older boy though will look for something to destroy if he is otherwise anxious or frustrated. He's much more intently focused, his body language is more tense, and he looks more unhappy. He doesn't exactly guard it from me, he'd let me take it, but he'd prefer that I didn't, and would rather be left alone to rip it up. He concerns me more because it means there is something either stressing him in the background, or he does it after something immediate, like my younger ***** annoying him... sounds a bit like your situation? So he needs me to balance things out and relieve the stress a little, either by giving him more space from the other dog, or distracting him with a game of fetch or something.

Edited to add: Nettle said it better and with a lot less rambling, but posting anyway :D
jennageit
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by jennageit »

I honestly believe that Jock absolutely revels in destroying toys. He'd love a box full empty toilet rolls. He's not possessive over them as such. If I throw him a toy, he almost always bring it back for me to throw again, but sometimes he'll just stop and start ripping into it.
He used to do this in the early days, but was distracted by rounding up sheep. He used to "work" 5 or 6 times a week.
If the ripping is not connected to killing, then I'm okay with that, he's happy.
Today I managed to wash him, and rather than him trying to get away, he seeseemed to think he was at some sort of day spa!
Afterwards, he came inside and slept at my feet for a few hours before conning a tummy rub out of my young daughter. I even managed to convince him that the dog chair in the lounge was a nice place for him to sleep, something that has taken almost 12 months.
I've got some old clothes that I can make into toys, once buttons and clips have been removed, and I'll see what he thinks of cardboard boxes too. Thanks for the tip!
One last question. Jock isn't yet house trained but is getting the idea.
He hasn't cocked his leg on anything except a few things. All of those items (inside or outside) belong to my oldest step son. Jock doesn't dislike him as such, but will NEVER go to him for pats, attention, food etc. He also blatantly ignores any command from this boy.
As far as I know, this kid hasn't done anything to Jock to illicit this behavior, and it is completely opposite to how he is with everyone else in the house.
Is it possible that Jock knows something I don't? Should I investigate?
One last thing, Jock was on the chair whilst my daughter was playing at her little table. She dropped a tea set cup. Jock jumped down, picked up the cup and placed it in her lap. He then sat there and listened to CJ tell him a story as if his life depended on hearing it. I was watching closely but didn't intervene. Have you heard of this before?
My once bullet fast, courageous sheepdog enjoyed a tea party with a little girl.
Talk about a turn around. I'm really proud of him, and somewhat perplexed lol.
Jenna
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Oh yeah, updating my blog daily, there's always that too!
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Nettle
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by Nettle »

How old is the stepson? Is he approaching/in adolescence? If so, there are a lot of male hormones flying about. :wink: Quite enough to make a dog mark his things and would also equate with not acknowledging his presence.

Or is he pre-pubertal and maybe has to be reminded about personal hygiene? That too can make a dog mark.

If neither applies, are there any autism issues?
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jennageit
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by jennageit »

Hi Nettle,

My stepson is 20 years old, and as for personal hygiene, well lets just say I'm sick of telling him to go shower. He doesn't wash with soap (uses some shower gel or some such stuff) and wont shampoo his hair because it makes it go all poofy and fluffy and he can't "style" it.
The stepson also plasters himself in deoderant to hide the smell and because he thinks it makes him smell sexy.

I have an 18 year old son who Jock adores, he showers regularly, actually uses soap and shampoo and uses a roll-on deoderant. Jock has never even looked at marking any of his stuff.

Does that help?

Jenna
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emmabeth
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by emmabeth »

Oh yep, I would say your dog finds the smell of soap-dodging young adult male human 'important' - whether its important good or important bad is less clear (though given he doesnt appear to like the boy or want to be near him id say 'bad')... so he covers it with his own smell which is almost certainly done to make himself feel better, more secure, etc etc (not for example, to TELL your stepson anything.. its not about him, its about the dog :)

I actually would bet that if your step son just chose not to wash, Jock wouldn't care so much - it will likely be the covering himself in chemicals to hide his own odour that is really the issue and, really why jock doesnt want to go near him.


Anyway, yes it makes sense to me and unless you can teach the boy to wash and not mask his pong with chemicals (which I am sure if you could you would have by now), I'd ignore it and just ensure Jock always has the option to avoid the lad.
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Nettle
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by Nettle »

emmabeth wrote:Oh yep, I would say your dog finds the smell of soap-dodging young adult male human 'important' - whether its important good or important bad is less clear (though given he doesnt appear to like the boy or want to be near him id say 'bad')... so he covers it with his own smell which is almost certainly done to make himself feel better, more secure, etc etc (not for example, to TELL your stepson anything.. its not about him, its about the dog :)

I actually would bet that if your step son just chose not to wash, Jock wouldn't care so much - it will likely be the covering himself in chemicals to hide his own odour that is really the issue and, really why jock doesnt want to go near him.


Anyway, yes it makes sense to me and unless you can teach the boy to wash and not mask his pong with chemicals (which I am sure if you could you would have by now), I'd ignore it and just ensure Jock always has the option to avoid the lad.

Spot-on. These smelly cosmetics are full of synthetic pheromone-mimicking scents, which to a dog's sophisticated scent-receptors are just plain wrong. So - Emmabeth's advice/explanation is exactly it.
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jennageit
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by jennageit »

Okay, so the dog is fine (well as fine as he can be when his nostrils are being assaulted by these chemicals - as are the rest of us in the household), so all I've got to do is teach the soap dodger to wash.

I refused to drive him to work the other day because he stank. All I did was walk past him to get to the car and gagged at the stench. Cost him $48 to get a taxi to work that day.

Fortunately the soap dodger spends almost all of his time in his room, so Jock doesn't come into contact with him, or his stuff much. The fact that the floor is lino down to the bedroom stops Jock from wanting to go down there anyway. He still wont walk on lino.

I trimmed his nails today, and they are considerably shorter (it's been a slow process), so he wont be able to walk on the tips of his nails on slippery surfaces quite so easily. Obviously because of the quick I couldn't chop them back to really short straight away.

Anyway, thanks for the tips and advice guys. I'm really happy with Jocks' progress, and look forward to bringing him in each day for more training and attention.

Take care, and Merry Christmas (if Christmas is your thing lol).

Jenna
(Jock, Peppa & Pippa too!)
Kids, dogs, family, writing, coffee and chocolate. What more is there in life?
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jennageit
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by jennageit »

Hi Everyone,

I just thought I'd give you an update on Jock and his progress.

Yesterday morning my husband took him out to play for about half an hour, they had a wow of a time.

About an hour later, I went out to brush the last of the dead coat out of Jock; It's making him itch and causing him to rub up and down against the side of his run.
Anyway, I get to the run and call him. He grovels his way up to me. Very unusual. I open the gate and call him to me, and his shoots straight for his sleeping pen. I caught up to him after he had already put himself in the pen and had a hell of a time coaxing him out. Something was wrong, and I wanted to get my hands on him to check him out. Maybe he'd hurt himself, or something was hurting him?

After about fifteen minutes of coaxing, he finally grovelled his way out to me, rolling onto his back and peeing everywhere. What the hell had happened to my dog??? He's always been a bit on the submissive side, but this was going to extremes. I didn't pat him, or even look at him, but took a few steps back and called him to me in an excited voice. He got up, came to heal (no prompting) and sat leaning up against my leg. I reached down and stroked him gently on his chest (a favourite spot) and he yelped, jumped back and ran into his pen again.
This got me thinking that he was hurt, and I needed to find out what was going on. I called my husband out to help me, and Jock was even worse, so I sent hubby back inside.
I got him out of his pen again, sat down on the ground and ignored him. His want for pats overcame his fear of me hurting him and he made his way onto my lap. I managed to get my hands all over him, without issue, and couldn't find a single thing. He relaxed a lot after this, and when I wanted him to stand up so I could check out his back, tail, neck and hips, he stood rock solid for me. Poking, prodding, pulling gently, nothing, not a flinch.

I said "Where's the ball?" and he shot off to find it, dropping it at my feet to throw it for him, which I did a couple of times. I had to sit down again because my back started screaming at me. The last time I threw it for him I hurt myself, let out a yelp of my own, and next minute I had Jock checking me over from head to foot and licking me everywhere. I assured him I was okay, gave him some treats and had to put him back in his pen to go inside and rest. I ended up calling for my daughter to bring me my crutches, and with her help, I made it to my bed and fell asleep.

When I woke up, about an hour later, I asked my hubby if anything had happened during their morning play. Nothing out of the ordinary was all I got from him. Feeling a little better, I went back out to Jock and brought him inside. He was normal again.

The minute I opened his pen door, he made a bee-line for the front door, waiting impatiently for me to take him inside.

I've since checked him over again, he's eating, playing, harrassing everyone for pats and conning treats out of the kids, and is absolutely normal.

So, any ideas?

Jenna

PS. I'm not worried as such, but it was so out of character for him that it's got me wondering.
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JudyN
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Re: Should I be worried?

Post by JudyN »

What is the side of the run made of? Could he have rubbed himself against something sharp or caught his fur on something, or alternatively could he have built up some electric charge and given himself a static shock? Could something have fallen on him? And is he still happy to go into the run?
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