Biting / growling / what

[delladooo]

Bit of context, they'll both have toys / one will have toy the other is doing something else but it always ends up with them both having hold of the one toy and "fighting" over it. L likes to rag toys and will do that if M has hold of the other end it bothers mum (a lot) because he could very easily break her neck which I realise is a genuine concern and we don't allow. But, if he tries to walk / run away with a toy she'll chase him and bite the backs of his legs, his neck, inside of his thighs, basically anywhere she can reach. When she does have hold of the other end she makes this growling noise that (I think) is quite nasty but I'll admit I really haven't bonded with her like I did with Laufey.

http://youtu.be/wwQtc3QQdwQ Excuse the awful quality of the video and the news in the background but this is the noise she makes (and it's all her). If we leave them to it he does make a bit of noise back but it takes a while and usually doesn't get to that.
I should probably also add that this happens with every toy, ie ones that were 'his' before we got her and toys we've got since. Out for the both of them is only "Laufey strength" toys because soft puppy toys he destroys but she does have some in her box. They're as bad as each other in trying to steal things from the other, only difference is we've (sort of) taught him to stop when told whereas she doesn't know that.

What I'm hoping you can tell me is if this is "normal" and I'm overreacting as I haven't bonded with her as much and he's my baby or if this is related to her food issues (which have improved slightly on their own ie she's not bothered about us in the kitchen with her). She's now 17 weeks and has been on a few "cheeky" walks but officially it's another week before she can go out with her vacs; in the end we got them done but I also figured that she was going to be exposed to all of these things anyway with us having Laufey and him obviously going out. He's not been on as many big walks at the minute because of how our schedules have fallen and not wanting to leave MiMi for too long but he still gets out at least 4 times a day seeing as (for now) I've given up on tackling peeing in the garden but he loves to play fetch with a ball (which has it's own set of issues because "oh my god excited!!!!" and windy so "oh my god leaf!!!" which are both driving me up the wall at the minute.

Basically, I feel awful over this at the minute because I feel like I'm doing Laufey out of something (I don't know what), I don't feel a connection with MiMi the way I think I should and it leads me to be much more critical of things she does and it's making me irritable which in turn makes me react worse to things they do that I don't like and get really frustrated which isn't fair on them because Laufey tries so hard (bless him, I told him to sit today when he was bouncing everywhere and he did (woo) but then she stood up against him and bit his face). I'm expecting her to be teething and she's no where near as bad for biting us as Laufey was but I think that's because she spends a lot of time trying to bite him.

[Maxy24]

Well they could enjoy playing tug or they could be trying to steal from each other (or one could be playing and one could be trying to hold on for dear life), it's hard to say without seeing the body language. Could you possibly take a video showing the whole thing, especially what happens if one dog manages to get the toy away from the other dog?

The sounds she is making in that video doesn't alarm me at all, it sounds like my dog's play growling. I work at a doggy daycare and some dogs make the most ferocious sounding noises when they play so that alone doesn't tell us if it's friendly or aggressive. Is it a different sound than when you play a really exciting game or tug with her?

My guess is she's just playing (though I don't know for sure), what I really want to know is how does Laufey feel about it. Can you describe his body language when she's messing with his toys? What does he do if he "wins" it back? What does she do if she "wins" it? What does Laufey do is she wins it?

Most dogs HATE ankle biters, it's very rude and seems quite painful, I get a lot of yelps and retaliation charges at work over ankle biters, it's not a padded area. I would not allow her to do that (body block until she gives up, then redirect).

For safety's sake I'd teach her to leave him alone while he has a toy unless he actually invites her to play (is holding a toy and also attempting to get her to play). Even if he's not really angry about it yet he may become possessive in the future because she won't leave him alone.

Try not to get overwhelmed. Puppies stink, I will never intentionally seek out a puppy ever again. I don't really start appreciating a dog until it's older. Not everyone bonds with every dog right away, it can take time. Feeling badly for Laufey is normal too. Try to have special one-on-one time with him and never feel bad about putting Mimi in a playpen to give Laufey a break. Successful puppyhood is achieved through confinement.

[delladooo]

I'll try and get a good video later, here's one to be getting on with. http://youtu.be/KoSbJkJBcFI I was trying for a while so it starts in an odd place and he's just had a game of fetch so not as hyped up as he can be. I'd usually stop them as soon as he starts grumbling. He's a noisy player anyway and would sound really violent playing with a lab x where they constantly made noises and bit each others necks but I get "bad vibes" from L and M, so can't decide if it's play

L doesn't seem to mind her trying to play much to begin with and he's quite happy to play with any dog I let him get near but she seems to want the toy for herself and he's a bit put out by it. From what I can tell he doesn't mind her having a toy but he feels like he's missing out if he can't play too and no matter what it is they want the same one If he wins, he tends to walk or run away as in the video and she goes after him, starting the whole cycle again. If she wins she'll usually take it under the record player or the dresser making it harder for him to get it; also adding to my not playing vibes. We've not really played tug games with her partly because he wants in on the action and partly because I feel like I'd break her.

I do try to stop ankle biting because I don't like it but usually mum doesn't have the same feelings saying he's just as bad. I "leave them to it" when they're just grabbing fur unless it's getting out of hand, on his behalf it's also how he plays with the cat (as an aside it is play with the cat and said cat seeks him out to play). Also, so far I've not really tried to teach anything to combat the dogs' play because I've not been sure of what to do AND they both instigate their interactions.

I had said we weren't getting another puppy in the near future and if we were to get any dog it would have to be 2+, I clearly lost that one. I'm not a fan of small puppies up close and I remember why. As for one-on-one time with Laufey we get at least half an hour a day when we're walking and (like today for instance) we played fetch for the best part of an hour. A lot of the time at home is spend "with" him and "around" her - or is on my part anyway - as she's more independent whereas if you're sat down he'll come curl up with you. Plus she's not my baby so I try to give him as much as I can

[ScarletSci]

I don't have much time right now for suggestions, but just to say that while I wasn't at all worried about the growly noise in the first clip, in the second one she seems like she means it more. It's good that she's not escalating beyond that yet, but still. I don't think it's play... or at least, not healthy, happy play. Neither dog seems to be enjoying it at all! It seems more like competing with each other and jealousy over each wanting the same toy. Common in multi-household dogs, including mine. I'm sure Gwd can suggest some ideas and has likely had the same issue.

I'll try to come back later with suggestions!

[delladooo]

Thanks ScarletSci

I'm just so unsure as they do play together sometimes but then they always want the same toy, even if we have two of them, but then there is also this behaviour and the ankle biting. They are as bad as each other and both of them start it on separate occasions but I'm not really sure how to combat it. If they aren't playing, they will curl up together and sleep so it's not that they dislike each other, it's just toys.

With food, they're fed separately as we suspect she has resource guarding issues but the cat sneaked in the kitchen when she was eating the other night and stuck his head in her bowl (we found him like that) and she didn't bother at all. Laufey eats in the garden but I have let him in a couple of times without checking if she's finished but he does give her space to finish so she's doing really well in that respect. She has no issue with us being in the kitchen with her and we can pick the bowl up when it's empty (obviously never tried with food in it). With treats both dogs can be together and there's no huge issue there, although she does sometimes stand on her back legs and lean on him, I think a lot of this is purely to get her head as high as his and not a dog-to-dog issue.

I just don't know how to teach them to share / not steal toys from each other and I don't think it helps that the toys that are out are all strong enough that Laufey doesn't destroy them in two seconds and she's teething. We do try to manage the situation and it usually works well but sometimes they just back and forth stealing from each other relentlessly and aren't distractable at those times, which I suspect is because Laufey is rather obsessive and focused when he decides he wants something

[ScarletSci]

I wish I had better suggestions for you! I know how frustrating it is. Using my own dogs again to describe, because it's the way I find easiest to explain, and you then also know that you're not alone!

Squabbling and jealousy doesn't mean they dislike each other, I didn't mean to imply that. And at other times, in other ways, they might play nicely together. It just seemed in that video that they were both so caught up in "who will win toy", that neither were having any fun.

Jack is 8 year old Springer/cocker, Pixie is 2 year old springer/something. Pixie is THE BOSS, and a spoiled little madam - Mimi reminded me of her in that vid! What Jack has in his mouth, Pixie wants, even if she has her own version of it right there. (I buy everything in twos). She will also bark imperiously at him if she wants him to drop something (which usually works), or if she wants his space on the sofa.

The only solution I've found is to interrupt her bossing behaviour before Jack gets too bullied, using time outs if necessary. If toy time becomes too heated, I take all the toys up and put them away for a spell. Followed by training sessions, which are less competitive, and makes toy removal feel like a consequence, but not a punishment. This might be harder while she's still teething... but do what you can.

Leg chasing and biting is pretty normal for puppies, Pixie was a horror for it, but grew out of it fairly quickly. Do the body blocking thing so she knows it's not acceptable.

Despite Pixie bossing Jack around, spending much of her puppyhood hanging from his leg feathers and tail, and the fact she gets on his last nerve at times, they're still good friends who romp together on walks, keep an eye out for each other, and snuggle on the sofa together. You're going through puppy trials, and you're doing great... hang in there!

[ScarletSci]

I've just remembered that you said you think she might be resource-guardy... so as I haven't had a dog with resource guarding issues, I didn't think about how removing the toys when the dogs get too intense to be distracted might affect a guardy dog. So put that idea on hold perhaps until we hear from someone more experienced in those issues?

[delladooo]

Thank you!
So glad to have confirmation that she'll grow out of it. Whilst logically I know she will, I can't always see it. I openly take toys off him but not usually off her, although I have encouraged her to leave things and come look at this instead although it doesn't always work. She's definitely a right little madam and the boss which is saying a lot for a dog under 2kg! I'm not sure how she manages it if I'm honest.

It all feels really new too, which in many ways I suppose it is as we've never had multiple dogs at once so it's quite the learning curve

[Nettle]

I just don't know how to teach them to share / not steal toys from each other


You can't, so don't bother trying. It isn't in dogs' natures to share, and they have no concept of 'stealing'. Even human children have to be taught long and hard and over a considerable time to do these things.

Yes you will get dogs that appear to be happy to 'share' a toy, but these are exceptions. Most of those that people think are happily sharing are not happy about it at all, or else don't care enough about that particular item to make a fuss about it.

The possible is going to be hard enough work with two young dogs - don't get het up about the IMpossible.

[delladooo]

As always, you have excellent advice Nettle. I just get frustrated with listening to them sometimes when there was no reason to start. Especially as it often looks like he could easily break her. He's better than I thought he would be but does need reminding to be gentle which must be frustrating for him when she's nipping at him. I just can't wait to get through the puppy bit and sometimes I can't believe I agreed to this

[Theo400]

Hi Delladooo

she is not growling but talking to Laufey telling him she wants it know matter what however Laufey had it first so is not giving it easy. however the nipping his face I would watch as my brothers lab use to do this to Theo as a puppy and Theo just took it (he's a big softie) I thought it would stop when she grew up, she's 2 now and still dose well I said to my brother correct her or I will well she kept biting and went for his face and Theo snapped and pulled her ear off. I was so shocked he snapped just as I was going over as my brother could not be bothered and I did not want Theo to get hurt but I was stunned he pulled her whole ear of and I was terrified. she's fine the vet had to operate but told my brother if you had told her not to do this when young (like I told him) then Theo would not have done this and that it was my brothers fault. most of the time dogs can sort things out on there owns but sometime you have to intervene. I would stop this now before anything happens as Theo had never done this before and has taken it for 2yrs and snapped and told her he was not his chew toy. I have since banned the lab to my house and wont be taking Theo to my brothers either. dose Mimi still go for Laufey toy if they both have there own Kong? I have also seen in TV shows were a play growl can escalate into a full on growl and they can start fighting if the other dog dose not back off. I would watch them when this happens but would try to stop her from biting Laufey as it must hurt him as it dose us.

Good luck
Sarah and Theo

[delladooo]

Hi Sarah

Thanks for the reply. We do usually stop he behaviour, I was just trying to film it here (not well I might add) and they do bite at each other as much as we try to prevent it. She tends to go for legs and will occasionally go at his face whilst he'll go for legs or just running into her and rolling her. She is generally a noisy dog, partly from being a brachycephalic and partly that she's a talky breed.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that he does try and correct her, even if he's a bit rough with it at times, but it's understandably hard for him only being a year himself. They are slowly improving I think but I am also aware that in the last few days she went on a big walk then slept, he was poorly so they slept and today he's had a big walk so now sleeping so possibly they're just sleeping too much to notice.

Personally, I think they're better when it's just me as I'm much more "mean" about her behaviour whereas mum let's them go on longer and says they're as bad as each other so doesn't react the same, ie softer distraction. Whereas whilst I know they're as bad as each other and they do both start things, I will put her in her box as a time out which I've not known mum to do. They both very much fit into being "very good" or "devil incarnate" with not much in the middle and it's hard to think rationally sometimes

[Theo400]

Hi Delladooo

I agree my brother was the same he was to soft. I think as long as you keep an eye on them I think they will be fine and is she dose get a bit to much I think the box idea is good.

[delladooo]

I do like boxes. We've never crate trained but once upon a time, our westie was in a box when a pup, as was the lab x collie that lived with us for a while. Then Laufey came and we used the same idea and now her. Mostly, it's just for sleeping and when we go out so nothing gets destroyed, although on short pee trips with Laufey she is allowed to stay out of it which is sooner that Laufey was allowed to stay out of it. She will have her box longer than Laufey though (I think) as I don't want to leave them alone when out and they cause havoc