Thunderleash & positive training

[kellyb]

I used a Thundershirt for my puppy, now 16 months old, while he was experiencing separation anxiety. We use shirt in addition to working with a positive reward trainer. He no longer shows any signs of separation anxiety. The Thundershirt uses the same principle as swaddling a baby, which is compatible with positive reward based training.

I heard about the Thunderleash used for helping dogs not pull while walking. The website says it applies sdoesn't gentle pressure when a dog pulls, causing the dog to stop pulling. To me this sounds like it is using positive punishment and negative reinforcement by applying something the dog does not like, (tightening of the leash around midsection when the dog pulls) and releasing pressure when the dog stops pulling, so that the dog is working to avoid something he doesn't like.

Does this leash sound like a tool that uses positive punishment to other trainers? Or is it working based on some other principle?

I currently use a harness and positive reward training to deal with leash pulling. Loose leash walking is going well though my pup will still pull at times.. He is about 11 1/2 " at shoulders and weighs all of 8.5 #. He is still able to push against his windpipe in this harness, which is what I want to avoid. It is also the reason we don't use a regular collar.

[Maxy24]

Yes it uses positive punishment by causing discomfort when the dog pulls. My friend has been doing a similar thing with her dog's regular leash (though around the stomach not the chest) for a long time. I tried the leash wrap on my dog once and he started panicking and flailing around, he does not handle physical punishment well at all. So no, it is not a positive tool but the discomfort it causes it likely less than that of a prong or choke chain (it works similar to a choke chain but is in a less sensitive area and also can't choke). Front clipping no pull harnesses are the only no pull tool I know of that don't cause discomfort. Most back clipping no pull harnesses function by tightening and head halters, while not designed to train through discomfort, tend to cause it simply by being on the dog's face.

What kind of harness are you using that still pulls on the throat? Does it have an O ring on the chest?

[Erica]

For my GSD, I had to find a harness with a very low, Y-shaped chest piece. A roman harness or something like the Ruffwear Webmaster (what she has now) is ideal for avoiding the windpipe. Step-in harnesses, Puppia harnesses, and any that have a strap straight across the chest tend to, in my experience, still interfere with the throat if the dog pulls.

I second Maxy's opinion - it is not a tool I would ever use.

[jacksdad]

anytime something is added to reduce the chance of a behavior repeating, that is positive punishment. we often think positive punishment has to be intense pain, but it doesn't. all it has to be is something added that reduces the chance of a behavior repeating. But in order to cause someone or dog to not want to repeat a behavior, the consequence (the thing added in) has to be unpleasant, doesn't have to be intense pain, just unpleasant. If the consequence wasn't unpleasant at one end or intense pain on the other...why would you stop repeating the behavior when X happens to you? X being the thing added in.

I would not endorse using this product my self. not only is it a positive punishment tool, it's not needed and it reinforces the fallacy of quick push button solutions. It will also most likely not get used correctly as a training tool (which has it's own issues see above), but even worse as a day in day out "oh, this is how I keep my dog from pulling". if you can't take it off and your dog not pull, you used it wrong and your dog didn't learn not to pull after all. it just had repeated experiences of discomfort every single walk. that isn't training. at best that is management through discomfort/pain at worst it is abuse.

There are so many better ways to humanely and soundly train a dog to walk without pulling and that encourage your dog to WANT to not pull and walk next to you.