Worried dog - confidence building?

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elisa
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Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by elisa »

Hi all. I though I would ask for some advise on dealing with Ansa, my very worried 4 year old sprollie girl. She’s always been taught with positive reinforcement and really is the best dog ever but she’s scared of a lot of things and I want to help her deal with it better. So long post with lots of info coming up and glad to share more if asked.

Now the last two years I worked abroad and Ansa was just with my boyfriend. Now they did great considering the situation and we had a dog walker come in once a week to help out. But of course Ansa did spend more time alone and did not get enough attention. She would also get very depressed when I left after visiting. But now I am back and unemployed and pretty much just hanging out with her at home since September with no jobs in sight.

Our days go something like this:
Wake up at 7:30 with Ansa jumping on the bed for morning belly scriips after the alarm and then off for the normal “around the blocks” morning walk of around 20 min.
Eat breakfast of Orijen kibble.
Hang out or sleep (not me) after seeing boyfriend off to work.
Around lunch time we do our longer walk of around 1 hour mostly off leash in the woods never really seeing anyone. She has good recall unless there is a bunny.
More hanging out or sleeping.
In the afternoon another 20 min walk around different blocks before the after work dog walking rush hour starts or after it before it gets dark.
Evening hanging out. With dinner of Orijen kibble.
Pee break around ten, if Ansa agrees to go and then off to sleep.
Ansa sleeps mostly under our bed or on the two beds she has in the bedroom. As a pup she wasn’t allowed on the bed or sofas, but boyfriend changed the rules (he originally set) and well now some nights she’s partly slept on the bed with us.

(Ok, so I do go out to the city or whatever on some days. And Ansa is fine when left alone.)

Now “hanging out” also contains some trick training and I’ve just started doing 101 things to do with a box. When I came back Ansa was not so much into playing with her toys but now she seems to be more into them again so we also play (bring the toy, tug, “oh you won”, bring it again, “thanks” -let go, maybe a trick like back-up and then catch, bring and tug…). And then she likes destroying/destuffing the toys but luckily does not eat them. If it seems like she just wants to chew I give her a chew of some sort. Also if she seems in the mood I give her like a box to destroy for treats of something.

So the problem indoors is that she is scared of sounds. Like now it is quite windy and the roof tiles are making sounds and she is scared of those. Yesterday she was incredibly scared of this sound that the building made as it sort of warmed up with the sun - it was just a small crack and really not loud or anything. And also she is scared of the dishwasher and uncomfortable with the vacuum. And if me and my boyfriend discuss politics in any way in a louder voice she starts doing appeasement things like jumping in our laps and licking. And really we do not argue, just discuss in a “oh people are stupid these days and the world is going to …” -manner. Generally when she is scared she wants to come to our laps which I let her and pet her calmly. Other times she goes to her cave under the bed or under the desk in the office, where she of course hung out a lot with the boyfriend as he is on the computer a lot.

So what to do with the indoor sound fright? I’ve been thinking about getting Victoria’s noise phobia cd’s. Maybe just playing the calming one would mask some sounds and help. I haven’t used any DAP or anything but could give it a try. Good idea? I sometimes go out with Ansa when the dishwasher is on, but then it is a fire safety hazard. She can be handled well so I was also thinking about massage or the TTouch helping her but don’t really know where to start.

The problem outdoors is that she is scared of “weird things” and some other dogs.

The worst is rollerskaters, skateboarders and these kick bike scooters that like every kid now has. She will bark and lunge if they surprise us and really this is an extreme reaction as she normally never barks. What I do is most of all try to keep away or run away if I see or hear (Ansa also reacts to the sound) one of these and then treat her trying to get a more positive association but really I have to start a desensitization program with just the sound first I think. I do have skates myself. Though of course winter is coming and we will be safe for a bit.

But then the skiers hit the trails which brings us to another frightening thing - people moving weirdly. Like if someone does not walk/run pretty much straight then they are weird. This is not a big issue and I can just do a “watch me walk nicely” and treat. But of course Ansa is also more wary in the dark and winter is coming and living up north it is going to be dark on most our walks soon. And she is also scared of people with head lamps. And in the dark pretty much anything will make her stop on the walk and look around. Question - if she just stops and looks around at “nothing” warily, should I treat her of just let her watch and continue when she decides it is ok? I call her the neighbourhood watch dog as when it is dark she has to watch neighbours getting out of cars and any random walker pretty much at any distance. (We sort of live on the edge of a busy neighbourhood right next to the lake/woods.) Oh but the skiers will be annoying as they come to our “safe zone” - the woods.

Then there are dogs. Generally she will want to lie down and wait for the dog and then bounce at the last minute - if I let this happen. It is hard as people with the other dogs generally do not see this as a dog being frightened and let their dogs approach. But I think we are getting somewhere. Generally we can get around (I of course tend to turn the other way or jump in the bushes) dogs with a “watch me walk nicely”-treat system. If she lies down I do a “where’s the treat” and drop a treat to the ground and she will sniff it out and we can then get going with the “watch me walk nicely”. I think the "where’s the treat" works well also as it breaks she stare which of course is also bad for the other dog. She’s only once really barked at dogs with me and this was in the dark at two big black dogs and I just ended up picking her up to get past.

We’ve also started doing agility again and in addition to the group lesson with 5 other dogs and most of them waiting in cars, I can go to the agility hall by myself with Ansa and I have done this a couple of times. She is great at agility (me not so much) and loves the A-frame a bit too much… :D

So what do you think? Am I on the right path? I just feel like she is generally too worried about everything and I want to raise her confidence. I think the last two months I have been home have helped and that is why I did not ask earlier to let her settle a bit first and see where it all goes.

(She was spayed after her first season when she was one. She is generally very healthy though gets eye infections in the spring dust. Treats interest her even though her appetite is not so good, but nowadays it seems like she is almost like a normal dog eating-wise.)
The best friend of Ansa the sprollie since autumn 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnsaTheSprollie
Train with your brain. :)
mansbestfriend
Posts: 301
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Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by mansbestfriend »

Hi. My thoughts - I haven't any experience with the kibble you mention, but artificial colours and flavours may not be helpful for anxiety. I'm guessing "sprollie" means Springer/Collie, so their traits can also be taken into consideration.

Could you be accidentally rewarding stressy behaviour?

In addition to avoiding triggers of stress and training/rewarding for calm behaviour, techniques like Victoria's CDs, massage, TTouch, thundershirt, body wrap, aromatherapy, acupuncture, etc. can help to lower general stress levels.

If you're interested, try google something like "how adrenalin affects dog behavior" .

Cheers. :)
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single Sit.
elisa
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Location: Finland
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Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by elisa »

Hi mansbestfriend, thanks for your thoughts!
Orijen is a grain free kibble.

Yes, she is a springer/border collie and working type on both sides. Border collies are prone to being sound sensitive.

I don't know in which situations I could be rewarding stressy behaviour.
Indoors she can come for pets whenever without having to be shaky because of some random crack of the house. Outdoors on the streets I don't think likes treats enough to fake stressy behaviour for treats. I do also give treats randomly for walking nicely and watching me and "environmental agility" and other silly stuff.

I have been just sitting on a bench watching the world go by with her on a few occasions, and if she stops to look at something/nothing I generally wait it out if the something is far away.
The best friend of Ansa the sprollie since autumn 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnsaTheSprollie
Train with your brain. :)
WufWuf
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 7:53 am

Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by WufWuf »

Hi Elisa,

Ansa's breeding is definitly going to be a factor here and really you will just have to go slowly slowly with her and try to tease out what you can help and what may just be "her". I'm sorry if this comes across as sloppy or lacking in detail but let me know where I need more detail and I'll expand I need to keep it brief as I have trouble typing (well it's concentrating that I have issues I find it very tiring)

I'm not sure that I buy the idea that reinforcing stressy behaviours is a factor with a low confidence dog. It's a complicated area and my typing energy is limited so I won't expand on that for the moment as you don't indicate that you feel that's the case here.

If Ansa currently gets her meals from a bowl I'd stop that straight off. Get her working for every meal it really helps boost confidence (something like a kong wobbler would be great as you feed Orijin) I can give you lots of suggestions for other ideas if you need them.

As you do the main walk at lunch time I'd stop giving her a full breakfast to increase the value of rewards on walks, a snack sized meal in a puzzle or the like and then her main meal at dinner time. I'd also do some training on walks to hep build her confidence, tricks, heeling etc.

If you want to talk politics I'd try to set her up with something to keep her occupied and distracted while you do, you may also be able to modulate the tone of voice you use somewhat to be less "serious"

Indoor sound fright - find something she LOVES and make a big happy deal about getting the yummy/fun thing when you hear the noise, liver cake, real meat, good quality tinned food, cheese. You will need to be consistant with this and you might have to really reduce her meals to accommodate it at the start but you should see a reduction in her fear level and an increase in her "oooh what yummy have you got for me???" behaviour.

Do you currently do any counter conditioning to things like skateboards other dogs etc?

Sorry again for the brevity but let me know what you want me to expand on and it will save me from lots of superfluous typing/thinking :oops: .
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules
elisa
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:11 am
Location: Finland
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Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by elisa »

Hi WufWuf,
Thanks for the ideas! I think Ansa is the best dog ever so I don't really mind if she stays vary of things like "she was bred to be" as long as she's not truly scared.

I have started giving her food in her kong and I think I have a cube thing I haven't used in ages as she just didn't care about kibble enough to be interested. Gotten sort of lazy about feeding as it's sort of amazing that she eats from a bowl when we put it down now. :D I do give her a smaller breakfast if we have agility in the afternoon or something also as she gets lots of chicken pieces there. I could do it pretty much everyday.

If I notice Ansa gets anxious about our tone of voice I do switch over to a "what a good puppy" -voice. I'm afraid I'll start using it in all situations and give off even more of a crazy wibe. :D I think part of the problem may be that now having two people instead of one she just isn't used to people taking. At least it reminds us to talk nicely to each other.

I haven't started with the skateboarders and such as I sort of want to first go back to a generally less reactive state with her. And they are pretty much off the streets now for the winter anyways. Have read the cautious canine to prep and will read it again and check out other books.

So plan is to get some DAP, a bunch of delicious easily reachable treats, start listening to classical music, maybe try out a sound app and deal with the indoor scariness. Still have time until new years which of course is the worst.
The best friend of Ansa the sprollie since autumn 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnsaTheSprollie
Train with your brain. :)
katej215
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:05 am

Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by katej215 »

elisa wrote:So plan is to get some DAP,
Hey Elisa....Hattie sounds very similar to Ansa with her fears...I have never used DAP, but one thing I do use which was recommended by this forum has been Dorwest Skullcap and Valarian tablets (which you can get in liquid form too) and Bach Remedy Rock Rose...I use the tablets in the build up to firework season here in the UK, and use a couple of drops of rock rose on her tongue ideally BEFORE she stresses...so if im sure there is going to be a thunderstorm or fireworks etc i will give her some...She will still get upset, but it wont be as bad, and often if i get it into her in time she'll take herself off somewhere and sleep. In terms of everyday noise stress we have good days and bad, but i think as she is on the tablets at the mo for the fireworks, she seems to be a bit more chilled about her walks in general, so plan to keep her on them for a while and see if she improves.

If you do get the noise phobia CDs would be interested to hear how you get on with them :)
jacksdad
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Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by jacksdad »

elisa, nice to see you back on the board.
mansbestfriend wrote:Could you be accidentally rewarding stressy behavior?
This really isn't a concern. it is well established now that you can't reword fear/stress etc. but word is slow getting out. we can have a separate thread to discuss if need be, but keeping it short...just like you if you teach a dog to sit vs put paws on you to get greeting..if a dog is sitting the dog can't put paws on you or jump on you... IF you do something that truly calms the dog, makes the dog feel safe, those feelings are incompatible with feeling fear/stress. So do not worry about "rewarding" fear/stress.
WufWuf wrote:If Ansa currently gets her meals from a bowl I'd stop that straight off. Get her working for every meal it really helps boost confidence (something like a kong wobbler would be great as you feed Orijin) I can give you lots of suggestions for other ideas if you need them.
I know wufwuf and elisa would not take this advice to a wrong extreme, but just for those passing by. dogs need their life needs to be free. meaning while wufwuf is suggestion is that Ansa "work" for her meal to work Anas mind and such, this is not the same as Anas's life needs are contingent on Anas behaving a certin way. I know wufwulf didn't say that, mean it and I know elisa would not take it that way. but I have recently seen similar advice taken to a wrong extreme so just wanted to toss this out for those who may be passing by and not quite understand the advice.
WufWuf wrote:As you do the main walk at lunch time I'd stop giving her a full breakfast to increase the value of rewards on walks, a snack sized meal in a puzzle or the like and then her main meal at dinner time. I'd also do some training on walks to hep build her confidence, tricks, heeling etc.
only thing I would add here is be careful that you don't slip into "hungry dog trains better". this is not quite true. a dog who isn't fully "satisfied" may respond to training better. but if the dog is trying address a hunger from not eating at all isn't learning, they are focused on getting their food not the training. But wufwuf is right, cutting back on meals a little can up the attention. I personally tend to only reduce about 25% max my dogs regular meals when I do this. he is highly food motivated even with a full tummy, so my main concern is overfeeding. again my concern is people passing by misunderstanding wufwuf's advice.

elisa, Outdoors I would pick Anas's top 3 fears and counter condition them. to start, working at her safe distance scary make chicken happen. do worry if she is looking at you, looking at scary, making chuff noises, growling, or such...scary makes chicken happen. if she is making chuffs, growls, barking it is OK to give the chicken, in fact you have to make this effective, but you need to also make note to not let scary get so close next time.

schedule in breaks for Anas. Today you work on counter conditioning. tomorrow you go places where she doesn't have to deal with scary, she can just relax and enjoy the walk. then the day after back to counter conditioning.

same idea for indoors. try and control the intensity of the noises, but the scary noises make chicken happen.

chicken can be replaced with any dog safe food that Anas gets really excited about.

DAP is hit an miss. appears to help with some dogs, others don't seem to get any benefit.

the special CDs, like through a dog's ear might help. give some thought how you will use them. if you need help on a specific application, post we will do what we can.

Medication. Some issues like sound sensitivity, adding in anti anxiety type medication can be the difference between dogs suffering and dogs making progress. please give this some serious thought. I mention it because of the many things you said that were worrying Anas indoors sound wise. in the house, she can't get away. this creates some real problems for counter conditioning being successful if the noises happen unexpectedly and randomly. won't cure, you still have to do the counter conditioning but it helps take the edge off and assists with the counter conditioning. Something to talk to your vet about. if the vet wants to just push pills and does not discuss the idea of a training plan to go with the medication, may need to find another vet.
mansbestfriend
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Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by mansbestfriend »

Hi. It seems my comment about rewarding stressy behaviours has been misunderstood.

A text book may say that stress can't be rewarded, or that fear can't be rewarded, but excitement (and associated stress) definitely can be rewarded/encouraged, or encouraged less. As you can counter-condition for fearful behaviours, so you can *condition* for fearful behaviours.

To be clear, my comment was referring to behaviours that may be rewarded with anything at all that raises the dog's stress levels and stress chemicals too much or too often. If that's not the case here, great, but it is possible.

Elise, We seem to do many similar dog activities. My dog (KelpieX) was at first reactive toward pretty much everything, and one of those behaviours was she trembled at the sound of distant fireworks. After training for calmness (originally we were trained/instructed by RSPCA Australia training and behaviour dept.), she now sometimes barks once or twice at distant fireworks, sometimes wakes up and goes back to sleep, sometimes she remains awake and alert so we practise calm recall/tricks and 'stuff' to keep her occupied.

We usually leave the most exciting training to short bursts with a clear start and finish to the session, and mainly away from home. Home is mainly for calm training. Overall, we've found a good balance (for her) between natural excitement and learned calmness. Cheers.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single Sit.
jacksdad
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Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by jacksdad »

mansbestfriend wrote:Hi. It seems my comment about rewarding stressy behaviours has been misunderstood.

A text book may say that stress can't be rewarded, or that fear can't be rewarded, but excitement (and associated stress) definitely can be rewarded/encouraged, or encouraged less. As you can counter-condition for fearful behaviours, so you can *condition* for fearful behaviours.
Only if you actually do things that cause fear. no argument that you can create a fearful dog, but that requires you be scary and subject your dog to scary things.
mansbestfriend wrote:To be clear, my comment was referring to behaviours that may be rewarded with anything at all that raises the dog's stress levels and stress chemicals too much or too often. If that's not the case here, great, but it is possible.
you can't reward raising stress levels. again, you can increase stress levels by intensifying the experience that is causing stress thing for the dog. or doing things that increase the excitement. but you can't reward them.

with respect, I think you are still haven't finished wrapping your head around this and/or mixing up a few concepts.

If your dog is fearful/stressed/anxious and you do something that your dog finds safe, comforting, makes them feel good...you are not rewarding or encouraging increased fear, stress, excitement, anxiety etc.

I see this in action all the time. with my dog and with people I help. it's not just a text book theory. you can't reward stress/fear/anxiety and you can't encourage those feelings if you are doing something that reduces those feeling or changes those feeling for you dog.

I could increase my dogs stress/fear/anxiety by doing something that increases those feeling. This could not be done by feeding my dog chicken or comforting him. IT can be done by being scary to my dog or putting him in ever intensifying situations where he is experiencing something he finds scary. or be doing something my dog doesn't find to increase sense of safety even though that is what I meant for my dog.

So again, IF you are doing something your dog finds comforting, increases a sense of safety, or makes them feel good, you are NOT risking increasing their feelings of fear/stress/anxiety towards the thing that triggers those feelings.
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Nettle
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Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by Nettle »

What you are changing is the dog's thinking. It goes from "Oh heck, here is a scary situation and I have to deal with it" to "here is a scary thing - I'll tell my owner and s/he will take me to a safe place and make me feel better".

The dog respects the person who acknowledges the fear, deals with the fearful situation, takes the dog to safety and then makes it feel good.
The dog cannot find value in an owner who exposes it to fearful situations without doing anything to help it feel better.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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elisa
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Re: Worried dog - confidence building?

Post by elisa »

Little bit of an update on Ansa. :) And thanks for all the thoughts on dealing with a fearful dog!

Walks are going nicely and luckily now with the fall we don't have to see any skaters. I think we will work on those in the spring though I could try some sound desensitisation just indoors with my skates to set it up. We did see a horse and rider for the first time ever and it went well as I was just walking to agility practice and had chicken and cheese. On the way back there was a weirdly walking old man that Ansa's training buddy reacted to first so that was a bit of a mess, but these things happen. (Mini vent: If there is a dog barking at you, even if it is a small terrier, don't walk closer and start grumbling about aggressive dogs...)

Banging sounds are a problem. Yesterday there was someone beating their rugs outside on our afternoon stroll and Ansa just wanted to run home (started pulling) and wouldn't take treats at all. Poor thing.

With dogs I think we are doing really well. I think she is sort of internalising a dog approach or sighting meaning "walk nicely and watch Elisa to get treats" instead of "stalk it". Now if I could just get the boyfriend to take treats with him, not that he walks her often at all when I'm at home.

Indoors there is not much improvement, I think. I did get a DAP plug for the bedroom where she likes to hide though of course it is difficult to judge any effect. I also got a Through a Dog's Ears calming CD on itunes, but can't really get Victoria's ones as it seems they are only sold in the USA and only as physical media. I have been playing that during the day sometimes and when I put the dishwasher on. Effect of course hard to judge. Seems to calm me at least. :D

I'm a bit worried she may be getting a bit anxious about us leaving as she sometimes seems to wait by the door even if one person is home. And boyfriend said she once scratched the door when he was in and I was out and she heard noise from a neighbour arriving. Suppose I just need to do more little trips to the store instead of being at home pretty much all the time with her. (She doesn't have any need to constantly be at my side when home or anything like that.) I need to get out more anyways. Just little trips to reinforce that I am indeed coming back.
The best friend of Ansa the sprollie since autumn 2010.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AnsaTheSprollie
Train with your brain. :)
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