Getting my dog to drop the ball when other dogs are present

[Crystal Lil]

Hi there. I am looking for some advice about how to get my collie/greyhound x, Charlie, to drop the ball when we are playing 'fetch'. Charlie is about 4 years old. We have had him since he was about 2. I have been working on the basics of this behaviour with him and am looking for advice on how to take it to the next level. Charlie loves chasing the ball (at break-neck speed) and will come running back to me when he has caught it. Then he will chew the ball over and over and over, not letting it go so that it can be thrown again. If we are alone (just me and him) he will drop the ball if I have a tasty treat. I have been practicing that with him - when he comes back with the ball, I will start off by throwing a treat on the ground. He will drop the ball to eat the treat. After we practice that a few times, I will wait for him to let go of the ball himself, and then give him a treat. I have tried adding in a command 'drop' just before or as he drops the ball - but I think maybe I've been doing this too soon because it doesn't seem to mean anything to him yet. I have also tried just swapping the ball for treats - so instead of throwing the ball away for him to bring back - I just quietly give it to him. When he drops it, I give him a treat. We do this 5-10 times and he finds this fairly easy.

THEN - most mornings we meet other dogs that Charlie knows in the park and he LOVES the competition of chasing the ball along side these other dogs. He becomes quite excited by it all and all the training goes right out of the window! He won't let go of the ball no matter how many treats I drop or offer to him. He always seems to prefer the other dog's balls to the ones that I've brought out and will steal them or grab them - because he's faster than most of the other dogs we meet, he mostly beats them in the race, grabs the ball and then won't let it go. Sometimes he will try to hold on to more than one - with one in his mouth and one under his paw while he lies on the ground chewing away.

Thankfully, most of the other dog owners think Charlie is quite charming and put up with his rudeness - but I'd like to train him to drop the ball when I ask him to. Also, when he gets very excited, he will jump up and try to grab the ball out of the launcher when someone is holding it in the air.

I think I'm probably not being systematic or incremental enough in progressing with this training - can anyone suggest how I should work up to getting Charlie to drop the ball under the very challenging distraction of playing fetch with the other dogs? I have been doing these basic steps described above most days with Charlie for around 3 months now and he is definitely making progress when the distraction levels are low. When/how should I be adding in the spoken command? Should I be phasing out the food treats?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[ClareMarsh]

I think this may all work a better for you if you swap the treats for a second ball

So he comes back with ball 1 and the second he drops it throw ball 2. Then once he's dropping it on his return you can start making it more difficult for him.

Mean time I wouldn't let him play ball games when there are other dogs around, which I appreciate may mean you miss out on park time for a while but asking him to return the ball to you when there are other dogs around and it is SOOOOOOO exciting (especially as he's so good at getting the ball) is like asking him to do his degree before he's learnt to read and write And every time he doesn't give you the ball and/or runs off and steals someone else's ball he just being reinforced for doing exactly what you don't want him to do

Hopefully some other people (especially Minkee who has experience of a ball obsessed dog ) will see this and comment but those are my thoughts

[minkee]

Well I can't talk from experience because I have the opposite problem - my dog will drop the ball for ANYONE (the nearest pair of feet is fine) and then ignore me if they throw it for her. And they nearly always throw it!

If it were just your ball he was holding on to around other dogs, I'd be inclined to say just don't worry about it. He's holding onto it because he doesn't want other dogs to get it, and that's a valid reason. It's his ball and he wants to keep it! If that's the way he wants to play then that's fine.

As he's stealing other people's balls though, that's just not fair, so you have to think - what DO you want him to do? Do you want him to drop any ball any time? Or do you want him to NOT pick up other people's balls in the first place? Or do you want him to just play with other dogs and not have a ball involved? Any of these solutions is fine, and I'm sure there are other solutions that are just as doable, so work out what you'd like to see instead, then we can work out the best way to do that

Personally - I tend to NOT let my dog play ball around other dogs, especially strange dogs, because of dogs like yours. They'd come along, steal her ball, then their owners would have a hell of a time trying to get it back, prying their dogs mouths open and getting all flustered and worked up! It just isn't worth the risk that I'm going to set someone else up to fail like that. So when I see another dog coming, the ball goes away and we'll usually have a quick greet then move on.

What I did to work on her running the ball to other people was work really hard on her recall and self control. We spent a LONG time going to a quiet little green on our own, practising stays, recalling, recalling past a ball, recalling before she gets the ball, waiting for the ball, retrieving a second (less desirable) ball before she went to get the first, and so on. Keeping it really fun and making sure it all feels like a game, but we spent a lot of time and it paid off in the end. A strong recall and lots of self control will probably help you solve your problem however you want to approach it.

[Crystal Lil]

Thanks Clare and Minkee for your replies.

I have in the past tried using a second ball instead of treats and, when we first got Charlie, that was reasonably effective. As long as we were on our own, and I remembered to have 2 balls with us, he would drop one in anticipation of charging off to catch the other one. However at some point, and I can't be sure but I suspect since we got our second dog (Jessie), he has started preferring one ball over any other to the point that he won't even chase any other ball - just the one he's singled out for that particular play session. So, usually - when his dog play mates turn up - he'll decide to favour one of their balls and fixate on that, mostly. Thankfully, the other dogs are less picky and mostly happy to chase Charlie's ball instead - so that's usually how we manage it. And yes, I end up prising the ball out of his mouth after most retrieves. Almost always, the original balls go back to the original owners and nobody seems to mind.

However - I'm thinking that prising the ball out of Charlie's mouth is un-doing all the training work I'm doing with him solo - that chewing the ball around other dogs is far more reinforcing than swapping the ball for treats/another ball when we're alone. Also, it's not 'empowering' him to make the choices I'd like him to.

Charlie has been a bit dog-reactive in the past and I feel like this play time is really beneficial for him in building good associations with other dogs (plus it's great just seeing him having such an excellent time!). Having said this, I only let him play like this with dogs that we've taken the time to get to know and that I'm sure he feels comfortable around. I wouldn't let him just run up to any dog and grab their ball.

So - to cut a long story short, and in answer to minkee's question - what I'd like him to do is drop the ball at any time, and not to jump up and grab it from other people's ball launchers. (Or mine, for that matter - though he rarely does this, probably because he's less excited when it's just me and him.)

I've been practicing a little bit of self control around the ball launcher - just having the ball on the ground and moving the launcher near it - if he doesn't go to grab the ball, he gets a treat. Working up to actually picking the ball up with the launcher - and we haven't got much past that yet.

In terms of dropping the ball at any time - am I hearing that the current approach of training him when we're alone and allowing different behaviours when we're with other dogs is actually going to achieve nothing? I can see the logic in that... So how would I build up to getting him to drop the ball under these heavy distractions? [And I suppose - a question for me - how important is it that he does this, compared with how important it is for him to have positive social experiences with other dogs?]

Thanks again!