I have a question about giving treats for training. We have seen Victoria say "don't use the word treat unless you intend to give one." My sister will offer a treat and then call and call her dog to come in but the most of the time the dog does not come in until she is good and ready. Meanwhile, my sister can stay at the door and call for several minutes before the dog finally decides she is ready to come in on her own terms. Now for my question. Even though she offers a treat but the dog does not come in until she wants to, isn't my sister giving the treat on the dog's own terms and not for training purposes? In other words, if she offers the treat and the dog comes not when she is called but when she is good and ready, isn't the dog training my sister and not the other way around?
Thanks so much for your opinions and help.
Treats and Training
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
You're right. Your sister is bribing the dog. When she mentions the word, "treat" or offers a treat while the dog is not coming, she is actually rewarding the dog for whatever it is he's doing....going the other way, sniffing around bushes. Never ever reinforce behavior you don't want. The cue to come should never be used unless the dog is already reliably trained to come. While still learning, the word, "come" or "let's go" (whatever is used) should ONLY be used when the dog is already coming and is within reach. If the dog is coming, but half-way there decides to run off, the cue word has been ruined. The dog can learn the "come" means to run off or sniff around a bush...whatever he is doing when he hears that word.
Treats are excellent reinforcers for most dogs, especially somewhat hungry dogs. But they must only be given after compliance as a reward, never as a bribe.
She may find it helpful to change her cue word now that the word she has been using has been "poisoned." It is not imperatitive. The dog can learn anew to associate it with the behavior. But it can make it quicker and easier to switch cue words.
There are several effective methods to teach a dog a good recall. Here's one I like to use which can be done off leash. A long lead line can be used but I prefer not to have to reel the dog in if possible. I like the dog to choose the behavior I want all by himself when possible. The dog and I are in a fenced, secure area and I just start playing and running away from the dog, enticing him to come after me...maybe hide behind a tree or squat down and squeek a toy...facing sideways or away from the dog....I make happy noises and the dog will usually come over to me to investigate. I do not call the dog to "come." Only when he is coming and just a few feet away, do I use my cue word. I take hold of his collar and give him a very tasty, small treat and praise him a lot. I may throw a ball or play with his favorite toy, reserved just for this exercise. I make coming the best thing ever. But remember not to use the cue word unless the dog has arrived and secured gently by the collar. The reason for this is dogs often come, then dash off before they're able to be reinforced. Reinforcement (the high value treat) is what causes the dog to repeat the behavior in the future.
Anytime the dog comes to her on his own accord, give the cue, then lots of praise, treats if handy, a game. In other words, coming to her is the best thing in the world.
Never call the dog to come and then punish him. This can be as inoccuous as ending the fun he was having outside. If he would rather be playing outside but he must be brought in, continue some fun inside...and treats AFTER he comes. Don't call the dog to come, then clip his nails or something else unfavorable from his point of view. Go to him instead. If the dog is really have a wee of a good time outside in the yard or at a park, she can get him to come, attach the leash, give a tasty treat, then release the dog again for more fun before bringing him in the car or house. Do that a couple times, then a bonus when he does have to come into the car or house.
Start out reinforcing (rewarding with something the dog LOVES) every time he comes until he comes regularly. Then she can start reinforcing every few times. No pattern, but not spaced so far apart that he loses interest. When he is coming reliably by enticement, start adding the cue word and see if he'll respond. Way down the road, when this becomes reliable, she can space out the treats some more, but don't completely eliminate them or the dog will probably regress.
I'm an avid hiker and my Doberman and my other dogs learned that when they were off leash running ahead, that if they came back to check in with me (all on ther own or with a cue) they would get a treat and then get to go back to what they were doing. This makes coming a great benefit to the dog. He gets a treat and he still gets to go back and have fun. Remember, dogs do what works best for them.
Happy training.
Treats are excellent reinforcers for most dogs, especially somewhat hungry dogs. But they must only be given after compliance as a reward, never as a bribe.
She may find it helpful to change her cue word now that the word she has been using has been "poisoned." It is not imperatitive. The dog can learn anew to associate it with the behavior. But it can make it quicker and easier to switch cue words.
There are several effective methods to teach a dog a good recall. Here's one I like to use which can be done off leash. A long lead line can be used but I prefer not to have to reel the dog in if possible. I like the dog to choose the behavior I want all by himself when possible. The dog and I are in a fenced, secure area and I just start playing and running away from the dog, enticing him to come after me...maybe hide behind a tree or squat down and squeek a toy...facing sideways or away from the dog....I make happy noises and the dog will usually come over to me to investigate. I do not call the dog to "come." Only when he is coming and just a few feet away, do I use my cue word. I take hold of his collar and give him a very tasty, small treat and praise him a lot. I may throw a ball or play with his favorite toy, reserved just for this exercise. I make coming the best thing ever. But remember not to use the cue word unless the dog has arrived and secured gently by the collar. The reason for this is dogs often come, then dash off before they're able to be reinforced. Reinforcement (the high value treat) is what causes the dog to repeat the behavior in the future.
Anytime the dog comes to her on his own accord, give the cue, then lots of praise, treats if handy, a game. In other words, coming to her is the best thing in the world.
Never call the dog to come and then punish him. This can be as inoccuous as ending the fun he was having outside. If he would rather be playing outside but he must be brought in, continue some fun inside...and treats AFTER he comes. Don't call the dog to come, then clip his nails or something else unfavorable from his point of view. Go to him instead. If the dog is really have a wee of a good time outside in the yard or at a park, she can get him to come, attach the leash, give a tasty treat, then release the dog again for more fun before bringing him in the car or house. Do that a couple times, then a bonus when he does have to come into the car or house.
Start out reinforcing (rewarding with something the dog LOVES) every time he comes until he comes regularly. Then she can start reinforcing every few times. No pattern, but not spaced so far apart that he loses interest. When he is coming reliably by enticement, start adding the cue word and see if he'll respond. Way down the road, when this becomes reliable, she can space out the treats some more, but don't completely eliminate them or the dog will probably regress.
I'm an avid hiker and my Doberman and my other dogs learned that when they were off leash running ahead, that if they came back to check in with me (all on ther own or with a cue) they would get a treat and then get to go back to what they were doing. This makes coming a great benefit to the dog. He gets a treat and he still gets to go back and have fun. Remember, dogs do what works best for them.
Happy training.
Training with my mind, not my hands.
I forgot to mention to be sure to reward the dog immediately...within 3 seconds of the desired behavior or he'll be onto something else and that's what you'll be reinforcing. I probably forgot other things too. Arrrggggg. 
Your sister can also look for other opportunities to slip in that training. If the dog is already coming toward her for his dinner or to go outside or to get a toy to play with, she can slip in the cue word and the dinner or going outside can be the reward. Look for "life rewards"...those every day things the dog likes and use them to your advantage. If the dog would like something, don't give it for free....ask for a behavior first, then reward.
We have an unbelievable amount of control over our dog's environment and his resources...the things he loves and needs. Most of those things can be given as reinforcement for a behavior we like rather than given for free. That's how the dog perceives us as his leader rather than the traditional domination idea.
Your sister can also look for other opportunities to slip in that training. If the dog is already coming toward her for his dinner or to go outside or to get a toy to play with, she can slip in the cue word and the dinner or going outside can be the reward. Look for "life rewards"...those every day things the dog likes and use them to your advantage. If the dog would like something, don't give it for free....ask for a behavior first, then reward.
We have an unbelievable amount of control over our dog's environment and his resources...the things he loves and needs. Most of those things can be given as reinforcement for a behavior we like rather than given for free. That's how the dog perceives us as his leader rather than the traditional domination idea.
Training with my mind, not my hands.
Thanks so much Carrie. That is basically what I had thought. Unfortunately, my sister in a wheelchair and using a walker temporarily as she broke her ankle. However, she said the dog was doing well before that. It just seems that the dog now seems to have done a 180 on her.
I just worry that the dog will have "trained my sister" by the time she is back on her feet and she won't be able to bounce back.
I just worry that the dog will have "trained my sister" by the time she is back on her feet and she won't be able to bounce back.
A-h-h...I see. Well, that must be a bit difficult for your sister. I do hope she recovers soon. I know how it is. I recently injured my back moving my piano....herniated disc which is impinging on nerves running down my leg so I'm out of commission right now too. Luckily, my dogs are all adults and pretty easy.
I would suppose that unless a leash is used with the dog, she'll have to do her best to entice the little rascle to come near her the best way she can...without using the cue word or bribing the dog. Perhaps a long line if the dog isn't too strong and could yank her out of her wheel chair. That would be disastersville, wouldn't it.
After a few successes....where the dog does come and gets a high value reward and some of those other little tips to remember, like not ending the fun etc....he'll be more apt to come to her, even on his own most likely. She just has to remember to out perform the motivator that he may be interested in at the time with her reward. It has to be better than what the dog is doing at the time. Once he gets a few repititions of that, I bet there will be some improvement. Just don't show the treat first. He's gotta pull his end of the bargain first.
Tell her good luck for me and I hope she feels better soon.
I would suppose that unless a leash is used with the dog, she'll have to do her best to entice the little rascle to come near her the best way she can...without using the cue word or bribing the dog. Perhaps a long line if the dog isn't too strong and could yank her out of her wheel chair. That would be disastersville, wouldn't it.
After a few successes....where the dog does come and gets a high value reward and some of those other little tips to remember, like not ending the fun etc....he'll be more apt to come to her, even on his own most likely. She just has to remember to out perform the motivator that he may be interested in at the time with her reward. It has to be better than what the dog is doing at the time. Once he gets a few repititions of that, I bet there will be some improvement. Just don't show the treat first. He's gotta pull his end of the bargain first.
Tell her good luck for me and I hope she feels better soon.
Training with my mind, not my hands.