Females Fighting

[pianogirl]

This may be long. We have 3 dogs. They are part Jack Russell, part dachshund. Older female is from one litter, and two siblings - girl and boy - from another litter. They have always lived together. Boy is totally submissive. Like an aardvark with the attempting to lick everyones muzzle and a submissive peer.

Needless to say over the past 4 years I have learned a LOT about dogs. We really didn't have a clue when we first got them. As lovey as they are we probably picked the hardest dogs.

From day one I have worked with a positive trainer, and tried to keep them well socialized with puppy classes, supervised (dogs with similar play styles together) daycare, adult classes etc. I've probably read every book published by Jean Donaldson and Patricia McConnell, and have many others in my library.

They are all reactive when on leash, the boy is the worst as he appears to be more fearful and he is ready to take on the world. Or at least bark it into submission. The youngest female is more gentle and easy with people and other dogs. She is probably the quickest to bark if something is out of the ordinary, and she is wicked smart. I read the book When Pigs Fly and started doing shaping training with her and it is so much fun to watch her figure out what works and what does. She flings every trick in the book at me and sometimes more than one at once. I taught her to roll over in less than 15 min. and 10 of those minutes was ME trying to figure out how to teach her. She is terrific on leash if she is walked by herself.

I have done extensive training with the oldest one regarding the reactivity and she had been making progress, but it is a LOT of work to have 3 reactive dogs and have to walk them separately every day. I will admit I kind of gave up the training and just walked them altogether and pretended I didn't know them when they would lunge and bark hysterically at other dogs on the trail.

I have learned a few things about them. They are totally different dogs when they are apart. I sometimes decry the thousands I have spent on dog training and the hundreds of hours of training when they are together it seems like they have never been trained to walk properly on a leash or have any manners at all. When they are not together - you see they CAN walk calmly on a leash and are very attentive to the handler and very sweet dogs.

It seems like the JRT part of their heritage makes them VERY quick to get excited. They ratchet up in the blink of an eye. All I have to do is say something in a stern voice to the cat and they are in a frenzy. Of course when they are a) all together b) with the excitement level that high - bad things happen.

They have never been food aggressive toward humans, and even the aggression they show to each other when they have high value food is not untoward for a dog - a freeze and a lifted lip is all it takes for the other dog to decide they didn't want the other dogs treat after all.

The females have never been best friends, but they have not been enemies either. If they all choose to sleep on a bed, they like to have the boy between them. They do not generally play with squeakie toys together, but will chase balls together. I'm more the hub that keeps them together.

The fighting started a couple of months ago. I'm not sure what exactly happened, but it appeared to be over a frozen Kong. I don't even know who started it. I put 2 on the floor several feet apart and next thing I know, there was a kerfuffle at my feet. It probably lasted 5 seconds at most. No damage. I separated them . Things went back to normal for quite some time. They had another similar scuffle over a different treat a few weeks later.

Then last week, the oldest one who sleeps in our bed (not any more btw) went after the younger when she was in bed. The scenario: usually the younger one and her brother sleep in their crates in the bedroom. The oldest one sleeps on our bed. Sometimes they all sleep on our bed, but the youngest really prefer their beds. In this case, it was a night that was pouring rain, I was already in bed, my husband brought the dogs outside to do their business before we settled down for the night. The youngest girl ran in the room and hopped onto my bed and snuggled under the covers. Then the oldest one came up and dove under the covers too. The younger one exited the blankets but not in a panic. The older one appeared to be prepared to just go to sleep. However, I took exception to having a soaking dog under the blankets in my bed. So my husband went to get a towel to dry her off, then he reached under the blankets to drag her out. She is not partial to being moved when she is sleeping and will grumble, so he drags her out and first thing she sees is younger female sitting in her usual sleeping spot and she went for her.

There was a lot of screeching and growling and well, dog fighting, he tried to pull them apart and it was only HIS screech when his finger was bitten that they stopped. The youngest was put in her crate and the oldest was banished from the room. After we doctored his hand, we looked them over and they didn't have a scratch.

We figured ok, we can understand why something happened - resource guarding bed and us, some trigger stack up with being forced to pee outside in the rain, being cold and wet and then dragged ignominiously from a cozy spot - only to see her sister sitting where SHE normally sleeps- possible redirection to her sister.

So we implemented a no bed rule immediately. The next day they were understandably a bit more wary of each other but things were starting to get back to normal. We went for a walk with a friend and her dogs. There was one incident in the kitchen by the dishwasher when the older female mounted the younger in an aggressive way and growled. The younger just froze. Looked like another resource guarding type issue - even when they both have shared dish licking duty at the dishwasher before.

Meanwhile, I had sent an email to the trainer, because I figured I was going to need help with this one. I had read about female/female aggression and JRTs in particular not being very tolerant so as much as it was "out of the blue" it was not. Know what I mean?

Next night was the last fight. I was sitting on the couch with the boy and the older female, the younger female walked into the room and walked up to my husband. By this time, I was keeping quite careful eyes on the both of them, and I could see the proximity of the younger might be an issue. The older one jumped down and there was a "freeze-off" side by side. No one else in the room realized what was happening, and I just got up quietly left the room and tried to happily call the older dog after me into the kitchen. Then my husband noticed I was gone, and I said somethings up - and he reached for them and ....they erupted into a spitting, screeching whirling ball of dog. At this point, especially after the previous night, i was not putting my hand anywhere near them, so i ran to get some water (which by the way had absolutely NO effect on them), my husband finally got them apart by covering them with a dog bed. But in the midst of it, the younger one got a bloody nose. It was not a tear bite, but looked to be a straight clamp down on the end of her nose. For all the blood that was on the wall and on her and on the floor, the bleeding stopped quickly.

So that night, I couldn't even believe we discussed it because we really love all the dogs, but we did bring up possible euthanasia of the older dog. While this was the first time she has gone for her sister, she has bitten people and other dogs before. She is a great snuggly dog with us, but she can be unpredictable depending on her state of mind with other people and animals. Rehoming could be an option, but with so many dogs needing homes that don't have her issues I'm not sure if that would be the most logical option. However, after sleeping on it I figured the best route would to get the trainer in and we will go from there - one step at a time.

Trainer came and we discussed the last few weeks leading up to the incidents and there was a lot of coming and going and strange dogs and people and so it was kind of a trigger stack up situation in addition to resource guarding. So they have been strictly segregated and we have started an intense program of desensitization and counter conditioning. I should say i took her to the vet first and $300 later she is just a fat cranky dog.

All that - to say this - I came on these boards to look for a success story. Seeing as I couldn't really find one, I have decided I will give them my best shot to succeed and will consider other options when we get there.

After a week of training - most of it with one dog on leash and one dog crated, I have progressed to keeping them separated by baby gates. I am starting to get a good tail wag and CER when the older one looks at her through the gate. The youngest is still hesitant to enter rooms the older might be in so I'm also working to get her to relax a bit too. The more stiff and ready for a fight (I can't blame her as the older dog is going to have to work to regain MY trust too) she is, the less relaxed the older dog is, so I am working on getting happy responses from both of them. They have been on a few leash walks together (not within each others leash range), and show no arousal or mistrust. I am training the older dog to accept a muzzle - she still isn't thrilled with it but is willing to wear it for about a minute.

This week we are starting to work a bit on the older seeing me give attention to the younger = treats for her. The younger approaching me from different angles, different speeds. Also picked a more neutral spot to guard = the bed in the spare room where they never go. So older on bed getting attention sees younger approaching at a distance - older one gets food. Most of the training I have been doing is alone, as my husband is not as eager to train her as I am. Or it might be that I don't really trust him to do it right as he is not that great at reading dog body language and will let the older get too close for comfort to the younger. But I think that's another forum. I said I'm going to need some conditioning when it comes to trusting the older one around any dog again.

I record at least a few of my training sessions every day for the trainer to see and tell me what I'm doing wrong, so she can see the dogs responses and also so I can track progress.

I cycle from hope to despair but am willing to give it my best shot. I am not willing to live in a segregated house forever, but will do it for awhile if I am seeing some progress.

I have had a few epiphanies. I had been trying to expose my dogs to all kinds of different situations, and dogs and people and activity to keep them mentally stimulated and not morbidly obese. However, I have come to the conclusion after reading one of Patriciall McConnalls books about living in multi dog homes that I need to leave the guilt and if only one can come for a walk or on an outing, then the others will get over it. A walk with 3 reactive dogs is stressful for EVERYONE. and yes, they are getting exercise, but every time they get that "high", they ramp up that much quicker the next time. Walking is supposed to bring your blood pressure down, not force it up! So lesson 1 learned. The only places we walk altogether is off leash behind our house where we are not going to encounter other dogs and a walk down a road beside us that usually has minimal activity on it.

Epiphany number two: not all dogs enjoy or can handle the company of other dogs and people. I thought i was being nice by taking my older dog with me to visit friends with dogs etc. when she probably just hated every moment being around the bumbly labradoodle. Multiple excursions in a week pile up the stress. Just as some people are introverted and really need quiet time to recharge and do not like to always be on the go- I have come to the conclusion she is an introvert and as much as I hate to leave her home, in many situations she would be happier there. Or if friends with dogs come over - she would be better off crated upstairs away from the ruckus.

This is a really long post but I welcome any comments or suggestions and please just one! success story would be nice.

[CarolineLovesDogs]

I'm sorry to say that I really don't have much advice for this situation. The only thing I would say is that, while I understand you don't want to live in a "segregated house" forever, I think you will always have to keep the dogs seperated at times. When you are gone, for example, I think it would be irresponsible and dangerous to leave the dogs out together, even if they do seem to be friends and haven't started a fight in a while. And I think that valued resources- meals, Kongs, bones, new squeaky toys, et cetera, should always be enjoyed in a closed off room or crate. Valued resources commonly cause fights, even among dogs that are more laid back than your dogs, so I think prevention and management will always help to keep your household a little more peaceful.

Unfortuantely I can't add much else to that right now, though I am sure some other members will be able to contribute if they see this post. However, you did say that you wanted to hear a success story for a little hope, and I guess I can help you there.


I have a friend who had a 4 year old Dalmation female (had had her since she was a puppy) that was tolerant with most male dogs but not really other female dogs. One day my friend found a stray female Golden Retriever mix (who was estimated to be about 3 years old) and brought her home. I was skeptical if it was a good idea for her to keep the dog because we didn't know how this dog would react to other dogs, and we already knew that her current dog (the Dalmation) could be fairly combative with other females. I knew that if it would work out, a good deal of management and training would probably be in order!

She had the dogs meet in a controlled situation (a leashed walk) and things did not go well. I'm told there was much growling, lunging, raised hackles, barks, et cetera. She was adament about keeping the stray dog, however, and brought in a trainer with a good reputation in our area for working with reactive dogs (with force free techniques, of course). Before the first visit, she reported that the dogs would growl and go crazy at the sight of each other. Thankfully, she had enough knowlege to keep them seperated in the house and give them as much exercise as she could (seperate, because they couldn't be together without "going loopy" as she put it.

The trainer came to the house and started having my friend work with the dogs extensively on desentization and counterconditioning (which if I remember correctly you said you are doing), moving the dogs closer and closer to each other over a period of weeks (the trainer came once a week, but my friend could work with her dogs without the trainer present, although she didn't move as quickly when the trainer wasn't there to guide her) until they could be at opposite ends of the same room, calm and totally focused on their owner (my friend worked with the Dalmation, her teenage son worked with the Golden Retriever) until they could stand right next to each other. She proceeded to teach them to target each other bodies with their noses (she taught them to touch the other's side, then back leg, then side of the face, obviously watching carefully for signs on stress and taking it slow).

By this time, both could already walk on a leash next to their owner and not pull ahead, so with lots of reinforcement and mointering, she taught the dogs to walk calmly on opposite sides of the owner so that they could enjoy peaceful walks together. The trainer came for a training session that lasted about an hour once a week, and they continued to see her for 6 weeks. In addition, the owner worked with them a bit in between times when the trainer was there. By the end of sixth session, the dogs were walking next to each other on leash, able to touch each other without causing stress, and learning how to appropriately play (as they sometimes expressed desire to play with each other starting in the fifth week of training).

Long story short, now they do seek each other out for company, walk next to each other, and play with each other. When they are playing, their owner calls them apart every few minutes for a "time out" so they can calm down, and when they are home alone they are confined in their crates with a fun Kong to keep them busy. Actually, I think keeping dogs seperated and confined when you are not home is a good idea for most any dog- a safe room of his own can keep him comfortable and out of trouble.

Sorry that was such a long post, but I didn't really know how to condense it more than I did! So my hope is that you will see the success that my friend did, but in the mean time, I think you are doing well keeping them seperated and giving them exercise seperately. You are in a slightly different situation than my friend, but there are a lot of similarities too, so I hope that that helped or gave you some hope.

[ScarletSci]

I'm afraid there aren't that many success stories because bitches are notorious for holding a grudge, and when you have two of a similar age and breed that take against each other for whatever reason, you will have to be very careful for the remaining time you have them together. They're well-matched and far more likely to be competitive when they're also matched in breed and age. That doesn't help you much, and I'm sorry that you're going through this, but you'll know in the future that getting two bitches of the same breed/age at the same sort of time is very high risk in the future. Even with bitches of different breeds and ages there are risks. People do manage though, and sometimes it works out.

It sounds to me as though you're doing everything you can, and you're aware of triggers when it comes to resource guarding being the most likely thing to bring on a fight. But I agree with Caroline that no matter how well the counter-conditioning may go, I'd never trust these two bitches alone together again. It only takes seconds for the old rivalry to flare up, and with two well-matched dogs, and jack russells to boot, the resulting fight is likely to be nasty and potentially fatal.

There are lots of stories on the boards from people who have two bitches that have begun to fight, unfortunately not too many of them resolved the way the owners would want. They are still worth reading, so you can see things that helped and things that went wrong, hopefully learning from their experiences. If it comes down to the fact you can't live in a segragated household, then it would be kinder to consider re-homing the youngest *****, since she stands the best chance of being re-homed safely, while your oldest ***** wouldn't be a safe animal to re-home because of her biting history. It's a heartbreaking decision to have to make, but if they really can't cohabit peacefully, then you have to consider the stress all the dogs will be going through just having to be in the same house with that kind of tension.

Please try and get your husband to read this if he's not very on board with helping with the training, since he needs to know how serious this is. Dogs don't often fight it out and settle down, decided on "who's dominant". Bitches, and terriers in particular, aren't good at backing down. (I love terriers, but you have to know the breed you're dealing with - bred to fight badgers, they're fearless. I've had enough jack russells to know what they're like).

I do applaud you for the effort you're going to with these dogs, and your level of knowledge, especially for a first time dog owner. I really wish I had better news, but you do need to know what you're potentially facing. Please let us know how you're getting on.

[pianogirl]

We are definitely going to change the way we do things - feeding and sleeping separately and going back to crating when we are away is not a big change. By segregated - I mean, the house is currently a maze of baby gates and closed doors, dog crates and it gets complicated moving around the house.

I have the trainer coming once a week and we spend the week working on her suggestions. All meals are fed through training. There are multiple training sessions in a day. I am not afraid to spend the money for help from the trainer. I figure - if she had to have surgery we would be willing to spend several thousand for it. I don't see this as anything different.

Unlike your friend, they actually are able to go for walks together. The older dog is ambivilent if not actually happy (loose tail wags) to see the younger through the baby gate. She is quite relaxed. The younger varies between cautious and friendly. She still cautiously walks into rooms and around the older one in a crate, but we are working on that. They are more relaxed when seeing each other through baby gates - where both can move away - than one in crate and one out.

They are getting relaxed enough through baby gates that we will start moving toward the places where the fights happened - namely the bedroom and living room, probably this week. We have started working on some mild resource guarding situations. When I started I figured on spending at least a year like this, but the trainer is more optimistic than me. While I am at the resource guarding thing, I thought I might as well train her to be less resource guarding around the cats.

There were things that I really needed to train them to do anyway, I just have to be less laissez faire with them. For example, as part of the training we are training for them to "go crate" on cue. They already do this to an extent, I have to be within 10 feet of the crate, but I just have to work to get it more automatic. This will also help in other situations like when someone comes to the door (they are crazy) or if the cats fight (they get crazy) and other things that rev them up. I've always generally "managed" these situations instead of training as like I said, I really got tired of dog training - I have a professional job and work long hours, I like to do some things in my spare time OTHER than dog training.

My husband does help me some in the training, but it really boils down to I dont' trust him because he can be very unaware. Ex. we were walking dogs on leash the other day. We stopped at a friends house. Their dog was outside, he had the older one on a leash (the older one who is reactive on leash and has demonstrated intolerance of the other dog before PLUS we are working on a less stressful environment) so he called the other dog over. He ends up jerking the older dog back on the leash. And I just was like - what are you doing?!! Why would he create a situation that didnt' need to exist? Argh. He tries to condition one dog and is all happy that she is happy, meanwhile he has approached too close to the OTHER dog who is throwing all kinds of stress signals.

[pianogirl]

Update:

We have been working at seeing each other in various parts of the house and getting tail wag responses. This seems to be more the case if I use baby gates over one dog in a cage and the other out. I think sometimes the caged dog may feel more vulnerable.

We did have an unexpected incident where they managed to meet each other in the house, but I happily called them to go outside. They have never had any incidents outside, so other than some raised hair and long sniffing, they were ok. I figured any human intervention would increase the stress so I just watched from the window. We have been doing some parallel leashed walking with them too.

I have started working in higher guarded situations - like the two places in the house where fights took place.

We have also been working on sort of an emergency recall, but in the house it is an emergency "crating". So we have their crates upstairs where they sleep, and also some downstairs because that is where we spend more time. We are working on being able to tell them to "go crate" and have them automatically go. So if we notice any situations arising we will be able to order them for a time out from anywhere on the floor. This will also be useful for when people come to the door as they can get pretty excited and jumpy, it would be easier if they would go crate while I am at door with company.

[Nettle]

Be vigilant with the tail-wagging as that can mean a whole lot of different things and not all of them pleasant.

[emmabeth]

Bit slow to come to this thread, sorry!

You've had some excellent advice and your instincts are pretty much spot on - particularly your 'epiphanies' - another one I would add, is 'don't worry about being 'fair' to each dog' because they don't see our attempts at 'fairness' the same way we do.

I think the other thing I would add is that having time to be quiet and calm is as important, if not for some dogs MORE important, as the brain training/mental stimulation stuff - and some dogs need to be taught to chill out and relax.

Finally, when you say you are using their food in training rather than from a bowl - just be careful that you don't inadvertently make yourseof MORE of a valuable resource - I would mix it up with feeding from food dispensing toys (which is a constructive and 'good' activity for a dog to be doing, certainly in comparison to snarfing from a bowl) if you aren't already doing that of course.

[pianogirl]

Good suggestion re the food. The dogs get their morning meal from bowls as I don't have time to train in the morning. They also get kongs etc.

I hear you about a tail wag isn't always a GOOD tail wag. The ones I am looking for are low and broad, soft eyes - so the older one is seeing younger, tail wags, looks with soft eyes at her then up at me. Takes treat gently. Living with reactive dogs as long as I have, I'm pretty good at seeing the first signs of arousal. I know I have gotten too close when she starts taking the treats a little hard - then I back her off. Sometimes her ears look a little worried before she reaches that state and I'll take a break from training.

I fear our "fairness" is partly to blame for the situation. The younger dog always preferred not to get up on the people bed, and would jump down to go to her bed. We felt bad for her and would bring her back to our bed, she probably knew she could get in trouble from the other dog and that is why she preferred her bed. In our mind this is not fair but I don't think she really felt like she needed to be in the people bed. Their system was working for them and I'm afraid we messed it up. On the other hand, it is MY bed and it should be me who dictates who is in it and not my dog.

My husband is of the mind that we need to just let them off leash outside together and they will figure things out.I dont' want to be paranoid, but I don't want to take chances either. And what happens outside does not necessarily translate to indoor harmony, as outside is definitely more neutral ground than the bedroom.

[emmabeth]

Just a point about the bed thing - I do know how you feel, buuuuuut...

We bring these dogs into our homes because WE want them and WE want to - they get no say in that matter.

WE then force them to live together when often, they probably wouldn't through choice - I know this is the case with some of my dogs!

We then expect them to share various resources, including us, all the time...

I think that adding a further expectation 'you will be nice to one another on my bed' is probably an expectation too far - its asking them to be too close into one anothers personal space, for what is really only a benefit to you.

I've let my dogs figure out the rules for our bed themselves (obviously no one was trying to kill anyone else though!) and we don't mess with it.

During the day its first come, first served and usually Dillydog will be on it - he is old now and likes his personal space. He will share it with some of the other dogs, but for one or two (puppy Womble and Errol the Git) he will just get off and sleep under it.

At night, Dill sleeps under our bed. He doesn't try to get up, if he did one of the others would warn him off - unfair? Maybe but HE has accepted that, HE is now happy with the rules - if one of the others tries to take HIS place UNDER the bed he will warn THEM off... so no one messes!

Kelda sleeps by my feet (Deerhound, huge, fortunately I am short). Rocky sleeps in the middle by the pillows - Womble sleeps on him/around him/over him as he wants - this is tolerated if not actually adored by Rocky but again, he seems happy to put up with it so we don't fiddle. Errol sleeps by OH's feet and gets up on the bed last. Ellie does not sleep on the bed at night, but she will get up if something scary happens (and this IS tolerated by all dogs, where it wouldn't be if she just decided she was sleeping there! I don't know how they know, but they do!) Instead, she sleeps downstairs or on the landing.

I could if I wanted to, randomly decide that all dog would sleep on their own beds in their own places in our room - we would have TOTAL carnage quite frankly if I tried that - we are happy with what happens. Personally I think its unfair that Dilly sleeps on the floor and Ellie sleeps downstairs, but letting them do what they want here has led to peace and harmony, so clearly thats working better than what my human idea of 'fair' would!

[Nettle]

Well done for all your progress, and for your sensitivity to what could go wrong. In leaving them to sort it out, your husband is way off the mark and you are right on the money. Outdoors does not equal indoors, and the killing power of a terrier should never be underestimated. It means living with one eye on the dynamics at all times, and being equipped with what it takes to break up fights when they occur. I know a lot of people who have lived this way once (including me) and nobody who would ever do it again. But it IS possible.

What isn't possible is to make any dog like any other dog if it has decided it doesn't. And that goes for us too. Anyone who has house-shared with someone they can't like knows how that stresses them out.

So all the best and credit to you do stay with us because we can always offer good advice, cyber cake and chocolate, and a safe ranting space, as well as congratulations when needed.

[pianogirl]

Current status:

We have been on onleash walks together and did an offleash walk together today that was completely normal. They sniffed each other through the fence outside first, then we made sure older female was not near gate when we let everyone out. It was our first offleash walk together in several weeks. So that was nice. We kept on the watch for any potential issues, but we also did not create any guarding issues by keeping ourselves somewhat aloof - I'm not sure how to explain - I mean, we let them run, only calling them back when they strayed too far. Let them run and sniff and roll where they wanted, but we did no petting or special attention to any one dog. Which is not really that different from a normal walk I was just a bit more vigilant. There was no raised fur even when they all decided to sniff or roll in same thing at the same time. I was a bit apprehensive at first as younger dog gets the zoomies usually at first when off leash and older dog will chase her down to put a stop to it, but they were just having too much fun running and sniffing that there were no issues.

Seeing each other through baby gates in the house is pretty unexciting for either of them.

They are more relaxed when one is crated and other is not. They have even gone so far as to share some mutual muzzle licking through the bars. Older one seems particularly frustrated to be crated. They both can be restless when other is crated, not sure if frustration is because they are not together as they have always been, or there is barrier frustration.

Trainer is coming tomorrow and we are going to work on some on leash around each other.

Also after me begging for one for 2 years, trainer started a Reactive Rover class. I really wanted to enroll, but with extra training doing now, plus a very busy work schedule, I just could not commit to another class. I'll just have to catch it the next time she does one.

I don't think they will ever happily share the bed, but we will just let one dog in the bed at a time as we see fit. At this point, neither of the younger dogs really like to be in the bed for very long. They do prefer to sleep in their crates. The older one is not fond of going to her crate for the night, but she will get used to it.

[pianogirl]

It has been about a month now since the fights. They now are able to be together with no barriers or crating required. We are are careful not to leave any high value objects lying around. We have been working on counter conditioning and desensitization of younger approaching older when older is up on couch with my husband(the resource). And vice versa.

At this point, the older dog is quite relaxed and happy around the younger. The younger one has taken advantage of this and on occasion will jostle her a bit. We find there is still more hackles up than we would like, but this time most of the tension is coming from the younger dog. She is still nervous about any sudden moves of the older one. Any tense situations are immediately resolved when one of us calmly exits the room and calls in a happy voice. We are also using some BAT techniques to ease the tension of approaching dog.

After reading all the horror stories of female/female aggression, I am very happy we have made this much progress in only a month. I was prepared to have gates up for a lot longer. In our particular case, it might be different than others - because while they are not best friends, they have never been enemies. We have identified triggers and are working on them.

One of the bigger issues in our home, with 3 quick to rev up dogs, is calmness. Anything that gets them up that high is being worked on - ex. the doorbell - teaching them to go crate instead of the frenzy at the door. Or this week we are working on not flying down the stairs to jump at the cats whenever cats make a noise. Also, older dog is working on not trying to eat animals that appear on TV. That's probably a whole other thread, but to show how sensitive she is - she was concerned about a quarter sized picture of a dogs face on my laptop screen the other day!

Anyway, I just want to give people who are experiencing the same issues as I am some hope that through positive methods you can change a dogs thought processes. Which is the part about positive reinforcement I wish more people would get! I don't want to change their behaviour - I want to change the way they think and feel so that THEY change their behaviour.

One thing we discussed at training session last night is that when we are feeling stressed and having a bad day and then blow up - we find it really easy to excuse our behaviour. But when dogs are having similar trigger stackup, we dont' give them the same leaway and just see a "bad" dog.

[CarolineLovesDogs]

That was a wonderful post and I'm so happy to hear the update! And I especially like the last paragraph- very insightful words there!

[pianogirl]

Had a brief skirmish the other night. It was a total redirected aggression moment - several hours of listening to the hated pheasant squawking outside intermittantly, animals on TV which older dog hates, door bell rang, everyone was going crazy, I was sick and wanted my husband to get the door, he didn't hear me, so I got grumpy with him, he grumped back and put the older dog down (she had been sitting on his lap) - and she went for her sister.

In retrospect, to the guy at the door we must have sounded like a madhouse with the dogs snarling and screeching and my husband yelling and the other dog barking as I opened the door.

I have noticed that when the older dog is picked up or put back down on the floor she is inclined to go after the other dogs if they are close. She might feel vulnerable I guess.

After this episode the other night, I have implemented more strongly "time outs". So if I notice there there has been a series of events that has led to more "bristling" than I would like. I put the girls in their respective cages for a bit with a Kong or something just to let them chill out.

Still working on reducing the excitement in the house but that is extremely difficult. With one dog, I could do more tethering (to prevent cat chasing), but with 3 that is quite difficult. The younger female likes to run down the stairs before me and go jump at the cats. I have reduced this behaviour by saying "go mat" when we are at the top of the stairs - they will still run down the stairs ahead of me but stop on the mat and wait for a small treat (a container of which is on the bannister). Then we proceed to the kitchen "like civilized animals" and the cats are left alone. Generally - it is a work in progress.

[gwd]

The younger female likes to run down the stairs before me and go jump at the cats. I have reduced this behaviour by saying "go mat" when we are at the top of the stairs - they will still run down the stairs ahead of me but stop on the mat and wait for a small treat (a container of which is on the bannister). Then we proceed to the kitchen "like civilized animals" and the cats are left alone. Generally - it is a work in progress.

Well done for recognizing arousal triggers! I also have found that the mad dash up, or down the stairs can be a trigger. Like you, I've given them alternatives. In our case, we wait at the top of the stairs, I go down, and then give the release word. I'm waiting at the bottomed with a treat each. Then they proceed to the kitchen, as you said, more civilized.