Question about our teenage entire male dog and other dogs wh

[Laure]

Hi everyone,

I haven’t posted for a little while but keep reading all the great advise given on this forum which has helped us a lot with our lab/Springer cross puppy. Its been a priceless source of information for us. Rudy is now 6 months old and I think has entered teenagehood (this will be fun!).

We had an incident on our walk this morning and I wanted to get some advise. Rudy’s always been quite hesitant with other dog despite copious amounts of socialisation. We did lots because he was quite a nervous around other puppies when younger, even being scared of other puppies at puppy class and he was always the one rolling onto his back and being very submissive. He is much better now but is still is always very submissive and always flattens himself down when another dog approaches.

This morning we were walking along our usual track with Rudy on his 50ft training lead – I know better than to just let him off as we haven’t quite yet mastered recall and in the last few weeks he has wondered further and further away from us on walks (all part of being a teenager I guess…).
So we were walking along and saw in the distance this chap walking with his 2 dogs a Springer and BC off lead. I pulled Rudy closer on his lead as he is terrible for jumping at people (we’re still working on this!), generally speaking he’s far more interested in people than other dogs and doesn’t run up to other dogs so I was more focused on the chap walking over and making sure Rudy didn’t pounce on him as we walked by. The rest all happened very quickly but this is what I saw. The BC came over to meet Rudy and initially looked friendly enough, Rudy instantly flattened himself to the ground. Up until now when that has happened I have always allowed the dogs to say hello which has never been an issue and Rudy just flattens, they say hello and most other dogs just walk on. But today the BC suddenly towered Rudy (who was still flat on the ground) and started going for him: he was growling and trying to grab at his neck. The 2 dogs rolled over on the ground a few times. Rudy cried a very loud pitch like he had been hurt but to be honest I think this sounded worst than it actually was. He didn’t actually get bitten and isn’t injured but the owner had to come over and pull his dog off Rudy (well eventually he did after I asked him to please put his dog back on the lead which he actually didn’t do but grabbed his dog and walked on!).

So I have read about teenage testosterone and that this can wind other male dogs up. The issue I think is that Rudy still acts like a pup but probably smells like an adult. My question is it now best to try and avoid that Rudy comes in to contact with other dogs whilst he is going through puberty? Not sure how to actually achieve this when he is on the lead and its other dogs that come over to him but I can certainly try. I found the whole episode quite stressful this morning and I know that he will be sensing me being nervous around other dogs now when we go out. Is it just best to try and avoid other dogs at all costs and do away with socialisation at this stage? Not sure what to do for the best.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Laure

[JudyN]

I sympathise, as my dog is one of those who hates young unneutered males (With mine a 6-month-old pup would usually still have his puppy licence, but he can still catch me out at times.) Even if the other owner was taken by surprise, he should at least have apologised

I'm not an expert, but what I'd suggest is calling Rudy to you and treating him when you see another dog, and if you think the other owner would like their dog to meet him, ask if they think their dog will be OK with a young unneutered male. Hopefully, they'll know their dog well enough and be responsible enough to give the right answer. In general, teaching Rudy to come to you and ask first before approaching any other dog is a really useful skill (one I wish Jasper had...).

You're probably safe with female dogs - I've got a few odd looks from other owners when I've let Jasper off lead again and said 'Oh, he's fine with dogs called Molly'

[Laure]

Thanks for your response Judy.
Yes I will try and work on Rudy coming back to us when he sees another dog this is a good idea (although coming back to us full stop when out is still a challenge hence why he is always on a lead or training lead, never completely free range). In this instance however it was the other dog that approached us... and yes i was a little cross for the other guy not pulling his dog straight back or saying sorry! Rudy is actually quite shy and doesn't tend to approach other dogs but rather flattens himself on the ground tail wagging waiting to be approached. I think it is probably best that I don't allow him to say hello like we used to now if his teenage smell is going to cause other dogs to attack him.
Out of interest is Jasper neutered? and is he fine with older unneutered dogs?
The jury is still out if we will have Rudy neutered or not. for now we are waiting for him to finish maturing and i was going to wait to see how he gets on as an entire male before deciding but if leaving him intact is going to make him more likely to get into scrapes then maybe we will re-think. Such a minefield!

[JudyN]

I think it is probably best that I don't allow him to say hello like we used to now if his teenage smell is going to cause other dogs to attack him.

Most dogs, at least in my area, won't - but sadly it only takes one dog to leave a bad impression on a smaller, timid dog I guess it's a percentage game - socialisation is good, but it's better for him to have fewer, but consistently positive, interactions with other dogs. And if he learns that seeing another dog is a good thing because he gets a treat, all the better. But I'm not an expert on socialisation, so others may have useful advice.

Jasper was neutered at 10 months old - before he was fully mature, but we were struggling with his behaviour and it seemed like a good idea at the time Possibly he picks on dogs with a whiff of testosterone because he feels they threaten his 'masculinity' - so it's based on insecurity. He's generally fine with puppies, females, and older dogs, either neutered or not (in adolescence a dog's testosterone levels are up to seven times that of mature entire males). Occasionally he'll snark at another dog of any type who bounces up to him, but that's just a quick 'bugger off!', and occasionally he'll pick on a younger, smaller, timid dog regardless of gender or entireness, but I think that's more 'bullying play' rather than 'I want to kiiiiiiiiill you'. But it's still unacceptable because of the effect it could have on the other dog.

[Laure]

This is interesting and I wonder if the fact that Jasper is neutered is making him react like this. I must admit that in all the scuffle this morning I didn't take the time to check if the other dog was neutered or not...
I suppose there is no hard and fast rule and this is what is making this so difficult to predict and prevent. There are some regular dogs that we come across on our walks and that I know have been fine with Rudy in the past but I suppose this could all change now that he's growing up.

[ClareMarsh]

I have a 2.5 year old entire male chihuahua, Ted. I can't tell you exactly when it started and when it stopped but I definitely saw a period where male dogs were more likely to take exception to him for no apparent reason. This included entire and neutered dogs, and dogs that he knew and were ok with him and with new dogs.

It also included dogs who would decide to come up to him and then have a go at him.

I quickly started avoiding all male dogs that we didn't have some history with unless they were on lead or about the same size as Ted.

I never had a problem with females so I carried on as usual with them. This gave him the on-going socialisation he needed (he loves greeting other dogs) and reminding of manners.

So I spent a lot of time looking at collar colours (no one puts a male dog in a pink collar ), under the dog for a willy , or listening to what owners were calling their dog

As you have an already shy dog I'd avoid male dogs for the time being, you can do this by keeping a good look out, walking in areas where you have good visibility, practicing avoidance and if all that fails learn to send the other dog away yourself.

The jury is still out if we will have Rudy neutered or not. for now we are waiting for him to finish maturing and i was going to wait to see how he gets on as an entire male before deciding but if leaving him intact is going to make him more likely to get into scrapes then maybe we will re-think. Such a minefield!

I totally get why you feel this way, I will confess it crossed my mind a few times but for one if your neutered dog then takes exception to entire dogs then it is as likely to get into a fight, secondly it is only for a period, whilst I'm sure there are dogs that take exception to entire dogs some dogs take exception to all sorts of things, and finally your dog is already not hugely confident neutering him will cause a drop in testosterone, I agree with waiting at least until he has matured but I would also wait until he has a level of confidence that you are comfortable with, then make your decision

[Laure]

Thanks Clare, great to hear other people's experience and its reassuring that others have been through the same too.... ( and that it doesn't last forever!)
I think I will take your advice and approach other male dogs carefully from now on.
On the neutering front we are definitely waiting -18months plus as advised by our vet but we will see how he gets on and we may decide not to do it after all. I must admit that I was glad the vet recommended waiting as I had done my own research and had come across many convincing arguments for not doing it at all. Though I must admit that haven't got all the pros and cons right in my head yet so the jury is still out....

[Kenisya]

It may as has been suggested be because he is un-neutered. I would advise as others have suggested doing some classical conditioning and giving him treats around other dogs so this experience does not become his standard in the way he sees other dogs.

I also personally don't allow my dogs to sniff or play with others on leash anymore. We've had too many incidents. I feel leashes tend to make dogs more aggressive because they feel that if they were in danger they would be unable to flee making them feel the need to fight or act aggressively so the other dog won't come near and possibly hurt them. This can even happen to two very nice dogs who don't know one another, meet head on, on leash and send the wrong signals. Your boy may not be reactive on a leash now but my GSD wasn't either when she was younger. She started only after being attacked a couple of times like that and not being able to get away because of the leash. She had the same roll over on her back personality too.

Its fine to have him on the long line but teach him to come walk next to or behind you when other dogs and people come around on a walk this will prevent him from getting hurt by other dogs and from running over to jump on people. This can be done with treats and +R. First teach him what it means to be near you in a distraction free environment using your choice of command then once he really has it down bring it out into the real world and set up situations where you practice nearer and nearer to distractions. Until he can do it when you walk by other people and dogs.

My dogs are allowed to play with and sniff other dogs all they want off leash but on leash they are taught that it is their job to stay next to me and ignore other dogs. This has reduced and even almost eliminated any re-activity on their part. Even when we are walking by snarling dogs at the fence. I always put my body between them and other reactive dogs which shows them that I will protect them and there is no need to feel like they need to protect themselves. It also builds their trust in me as well. Not only that but in the event a fight breaks out at the dog park instead of running towards it they run straight to me and follow me elsewhere. They also come straight to me when someone is getting too rough so I can tell the other dog to go away instead of trying to sort it out themselves further reducing the chance of a fight.

For some reason every dog wanted to attack my girl when she was younger too. I didn't breed her but I also didn't spay her until she was 2 because her breeder said it would reduce the risk of hip dysplasia and other problems GSDs are prone to. I think that may have factored into it as well. Don't be afraid to tell other people not to let their dogs sniff him on leash either you have to protect your boy and if you know he is going to roll over an they may possibly attack it's not worth his welfare. Just keep him seeing other dogs a positive thing by giving him treats and not giving them a chance to make him feel unsafe and it should all be fine.

It would also be best to just embrace him as he is he doesn't need to be super social as long as he loves you and you love him!

[Kenisya]

EDIT:
I'm sorry it posted twice I have no idea what happend...