Help?

[Nebula]

What do you think of these people?
http://www.g3dogs.com/

We're thinking about getting them to train our (disobedient at recall) pup, the Labrador cross. I would love train him myself, positively - had I not already tried. His recall is a mess still, and though we're working on it, here's the thing - when he does come back (1 in 10 times generally) he takes the treat and dodges away. Now I know that coming back should be a reward, but to the dog, he thinks that being away and sniffing, ignoring is just as fun.

Now I'm asking because these people use vibration collars. If the dog goes to far away, they get vibrated, which strengthens as they move further away.
I do not want to use any collars like this unless absolutely neccessary, but I can't teach my dog that being away from us and smelling things is not fun - because to him, it's more fun than coming back.

Help/advice?

[Sabrina]

Hi! I have no knowledge of the group you asked about, but personally I would not use a vibrating collar outside of a situation like "deaf dog - vibration means look to owner for reward!"

I have a dog with fear issues and I steer very clear of anything that could trigger fear reactions (current or new!) - after a dog is afraid of something, like a collar, it might not be possible to return to a "normal" state. There isn't a guarantee that the dog will associate the vibration with "being x number of feet away from you." If your dog develops a fear to "this thing on my neck that is 'randomly' vibrating", then you would be in a worse position than you are in now and need months/years/indefinite time to work away from the fear of collars.

I would love train him myself, positively - had I not already tried. His recall is a mess still, and though we're working on it,

What advice have you implemented from your last thread? I had seen some people recommend recall games. Here is a different post with links to some recall games: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16569&p=121638&hili ... es#p121617 Have you tried any of these?

Do you have a long lead, and can you use this while you are training recall?

[emmabeth]

These people use shock collars - their website makes no mention of this that I can see, but I can see the dogs are wearing them in the videos, and their facebook page is pretty clear. Avoid like the plague and I wouldn't leave a stuffed toy with them unsupervised, let alone a real dog!

[JudyN]

For taking the treat and dodging - when working on recall, always take hold of his collar (if he's OK with that) or put him on lead before treating, and then release straight away.

Jasper always wears a very short lead which doesn't reach the ground and doesn't have a loop so can't trip him up. It's really useful as it means I can grab him and get control of him much more easily. It wouldn't be quite so effective on a shorter dog though.

[Nebula]

Thanks for the advice! Though to me, the dogs don't seem distressed, they seem to look pretty happy, and not at all like the dogs Cesar Millan 'works with'. I can't see any/hardly any stress signal, and i've studied dog body language. Not that I'm supporting shock collars, of course. My dog is pretty over-confident when off-lead, which is just one problem.

But the main problem is he views a training session as the ONLY time when he listens. Other times, I let him off (in a safe area) and he stays near enough most of the time, but ignores when I call him. So I can't see how I can train him in real situations when he doesn't think it's a training session. He thinks he can do what he likes. Like I said, he knows that staying away is just as rewarding as coming back, so doesn't bother.

[rachel540]

Hi could you tell us what you have done so far? What techniques? What recall games? What rewards you use (kind of treat/toy)? What do you call your dog back for - if he came back to you what do you do? You mentioned when he's training - when and where do you do that? You mentioned a safe place to practise recall - where and when do you do this?

Im just trying to make a list of things we can tick off so we can move on with the advice and make it as helpful as possible.

I dont see any need for a vibration collar. Your dog is smart, we need to figure out a way to be smarter, and its not that.

[WufWuf]

Though to me, the dogs don't seem distressed, they seem to look pretty happy, and not at all like the dogs Cesar Millan 'works with'. I can't see any/hardly any stress signal

I've only watched this video http://www.g3dogs.com/training_classes.html but I definitely see signs of stress - dog does a shake off after the first leash pop and heel command, tail very low and back end a bit tucked under while heeling, shakes off after second heel command, tail only wags when he's not at heel on lead, infact it's still tucked when he does the inital off lead heel.

Rachel has asked some really great questions and I think that if you answer them we'll be on the road to figuring out how you can work on his training in a kind and gentle way. Could you could remind us how old he is and how long you've been training him?

[jacksdad]

Thanks for the advice! Though to me, the dogs don't seem distressed, they seem to look pretty happy, and not at all like the dogs Cesar Millan 'works with'. I can't see any/hardly any stress signal, and i've studied dog body language. Not that I'm supporting shock collars, of course. My dog is pretty over-confident when off-lead, which is just one problem.

But the main problem is he views a training session as the ONLY time when he listens. Other times, I let him off (in a safe area) and he stays near enough most of the time, but ignores when I call him. So I can't see how I can train him in real situations when he doesn't think it's a training session. He thinks he can do what he likes. Like I said, he knows that staying away is just as rewarding as coming back, so doesn't bother.

make training spontaneous. sometimes it happens at 3pm sometimes not. sometimes a 8am, sometimes not etc. sometimes on a walk, sometimes not. ask for 1 simple thing, that you KNOW he will do, then continue with the walk.

also keep in mind that your dogs level of skill indoors will not automatically translate to being outside with distractions. So you have to take things back a step or two when outside, and work backup.

when training a recall, at the VERY beginning, you NEVER, EVER, EVER call your dog when it is distracted. yes, that is when we NEED recall to work the most, but until your dog has this down, doing so is only setting everyone up for failure.

to start, once or twice while on a walk, and on leash, when he looks back at you...call him to you. And have SUPER YUMMY treats waiting for him. not the flower/biscuit type either. real chicken or steak or hotdog or some cheese etc. then let him go back to doing whatever. do this on a 6 food lead.

you build from there. We can help you plan this out if you need, but the others are right that we need to know what you have done so far.

[emmabeth]

Their videos are well edited and actually don't show the training process, well not as far as I can see and I have watched five or six now.

There are still signs of stress there as the vid WufWuf links shows, they are quite subtle though - all the vids seem to show dogs fairly immediately after some intensive training. Im curious as to what they are like six months down the line!

[Wes]

There's a BIG yawn and a bunch of lip licking after that leash pop too. Definitely not a happy dog.