Need help training previously abused dog.

[guineapigs05]

I am having an issue I hope you can help me with. I adopted a 3yr old German Shepherd from an abusive home I have had him about 8 months and he is doing great. He was super men aggressive and fearful of other people and dogs. He is great now with them all. He knows sit, shake, down, speak, and stay(sometime). We still need to work on them all more. The problem is he was doing great training then all of the sudden when I taught him bow he started acting weird getting scared when I tried to get him to bow which he had down pat. Now anytime i try to get him to do anything other than sit, down, shake or stay he cowers and gets scared then runs off. He will be okay for a minute when trying to teach him something new then he will just start getting scared roll on his back and sometimes pee on himself.

It doesn't make since to me as most of the time when I try getting him to do something new he IS doing it and is getting it then shuts down and has his ears back.

I have anther dog who is very well trained and know all kinds of cool tricks I would love to teach my German Shepherd some to, but I can't if he keeps getting scared.

[jacksdad]

If he comes from an abusive background, he may still have fear of "getting it wrong". I ask you to X, you don't so I punish you type associations. in "formal" training sessions it is normal for there to be some stress while the dog is figuring out what you are trying to ask of it. If your dog is used to being punished (kicked, yelled at, shocked, or who knows what) for getting it wrong, even though that may not be happening anymore now that he is with you, that memory/association with getting it wrong is still there and if this is the problem, your dog needs some safe ways to learn it is ok to get it wrong, it is ok to no understand what I am asking etc.

To start, I would back things off a just a bit. maybe take a little break from training specific things. Switch to capturing behavior verses teaching something new.

For example, you want to teach him down. don't do a "formal" training session right now, just stash some rewards around the house, and when you catch him in a "down" praise and reward. and do this for anything else you would like to encourage. let him get it right without pressure and let things be his choice for a little while.

I would also suggest maybe trying the "box game" with him. This is a game where your dog does whatever the heck he wants to with a box, or some other object that is safe for him to play with. doesn't have to be a box, but boxes can be fun. If you don't already clicker train, this can be a great clicker training activity to get your dog used to click = treat/reward when offering behaviors. you dog can touch the box with his nose, paw, sit next to, or one the box. scratch at the box, tip it over, jump on it, tear it to shreds. sky is the limit. there is NO possible way for your dog to get it wrong because whatever he does with the box, is right and earns rewards.

I would start with playing for just one minute at a time, do your best to keep the rate of reward as high as possible. Take a break before he gets frustrated, fearful, stressed. hence the start with just about 1 minute....or less if you need to of play.

once your dog "gets it", you can start asking for a different behavior for each treat/reward so your dog doesn't just figure out one thing and keeps repeating it. BUT in the beginning don't worry about repeat behaviors too much.

speaking of clicker....are you clicker training your tricks? if so, are you sure the clicker isn't causing some stress/fear response? you can "clicker train" without a clicker if this is the case. replace the click with a soft spoken work. On the flip side, if you aren't using a clicker, are you sure it's not your voice that is causing the fear/stress response? maybe you need to switch to the clicker so a human voice isn't associated with training. I was working with a little Yorkie a couple weeks ago that just about jumped out of his skin when I say "yes" (in a place of a click) a little to enthusiastically.

additional things to be aware of. your over all energy and body movements when working with your dog are they "big" and are you physically active in training? Do you have a video camera? if so, video tape some of your training sessions, then watch and see if you can pickup is it something you say, how you say it, body movements, physical closeness etc, etc.

But, having said that, I think your best starting point is to end formal training for a little while, and focus on ways/things you dog can do to earn rewards without being told to do something. let him learn that it is ok to offer behavior, box game is great for this. it also helps them learn it is ok to get it wrong and that it is safe to get things wrong. how this is learned is when your dog is ready, no longer reward repetitive behavior with the box. example dog paws the box, gets treat. dog paws it again, no treat, but earns one for switching to touching the box with his nose.

That is where I would start.

[Nettle]

Just to add to that great advice - most GSDs have pain issues from their awful conformation. It could well be that yours has too, or else he may have pain issues from previous ill-treatment/bad food while he was developing. It may be that doing some of these movements causes him pain. Dogs are great at hiding pain but that does not mean they do not have it.

You have one dog that does cool tricks. Maybe you can be satisfied with the cool tricks aspect with that dog, and do mind games with this one instead. GSDs love to do mind games and we have a whole pinned thread of them - Exercise the Mind There's sure to be some things he will like there.

[guineapigs05]

Having my one dog that has cool tricks is fine, but I still want to more obedience stuff with Chief and he seems so eger at first and gets excited when I am doing tricks with Smokey like he wants to learn. As for the mind games you said you have a thread pinned on mind games where, I can't find it.

[Suzette]

Having my one dog that has cool tricks is fine, but I still want to more obedience stuff with Chief and he seems so eger at first and gets excited when I am doing tricks with Smokey like he wants to learn. As for the mind games you said you have a thread pinned on mind games where, I can't find it.

Here you go . . . viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1135

[guineapigs05]

Thank You. I will go more in depth in it later. The box game might be fun for him if I toss treats in it. He seems to like cardboard lol

[guineapigs05]

How can I get him to be calm in petstores or other stores? I have taken Chief to PETCO and petsmart yesterday and one a few days before he was completely nuts running around pulling flying up to other dogs. I know I need to click treat when he sees other dogs, but there's no other place we see dogs besides the petstores and he pulls like crazy to get to them. I thought about just sitting down in the store and click and treat, but he's to interested in other dogs and will continue to pull. And he so big he typically scares the other dog when he rushes up to say hi and then the other dog gets scared and snaps which makes him growl and bark like crazy. He's just so estatic to be out and about he's nuts. If we do sit or stand still he will pull some and just start whining like crazy. He also whines like crazy in the car. I want to take him places more, but we both need to learn together how to get him to be more calm.

[jacksdad]

How can I get him to be calm in petstores or other stores? I have taken Chief to PETCO and petsmart yesterday and one a few days before he was completely nuts running around pulling flying up to other dogs. I know I need to click treat when he sees other dogs....

But you NEED to do this in a place that gives him enough distance from dogs that he can be calm. that way when you click you are marking his desired state/behavior of being calm, not "completely nuts".

...... but there's no other place we see dogs besides the petstores

really? people don't walk their dogs in parks, beaches, down the street in the neighborhood?

The pet store is way to much for him right now. even if he isn't "scared", it is emotionally overloading for him. sights, smells, activity. And depending on when and how many people/dogs are in the store, you risk flooding him. not a good thing.

right now, you need to find a place there might be dogs, but not so many he is overstimulated. in a 30 minute walk, right now, only having to "deal" with one or two dogs...that is plenty. quality over quantity.

Right now, I would NOT ask for sit, but just a look and then turn and go the other direction.

If this was my dog, him greeting dogs would low on my list. I made the mistake with my dog of making this a top priority when I first got him, not again.

what I would be doing is working on him bonding with you, trusting you, focusing on you. seeing you as the GREATEST things since chasing squirrels. in between I would work at safe distances to get him used to seeing dogs, birds, joggers, bikers, cars passing, kids running, etc and being able to remain calm, even ignore and focus on you for a game of tug, or running through a couple behaviors such as targeting your hand with nose, maybe giving you a "high five"...his paw "slapping" your open hand, him offering or on cue giving you eye contact etc.

he doesn't NEED to greet dogs at this time, he NEEDS to be calm when he sees them. He NEEDS to be bonded and focused on you, seeing you as his primary source of fun, games, activities etc. meeting dogs will happen, just don't rush it. him greeting and playing with other dogs is icing on the cake. but shouldn't be your primary goal right now. with progress things change, but right now...focus on "step 1", worry about step 100 when you get closer.

[guineapigs05]

How do I do this

what I would be doing is working on him bonding with you, trusting you, focusing on you. seeing you as the GREATEST things

There are no dog parks, there is a park, but there is rarely dogs there, and around my neighborhood no hardly anyone walks their dog almost everyone has fences. At the park that's near me I do see a couple dogs and a bunch of people in the summer time, but its winter right now and there's bairly anyone out. My goal isn't for him to say hi that's his goal. He is pretty attentive to me in my backyard I live in a duplex its more quite there, in our front yard he doesn't pay attention. He certainly isn't interested in me while we are outside. Inside he is always following me around and laying by me.

[jacksdad]

How do I do this

what I would be doing is working on him bonding with you, trusting you, focusing on you. seeing you as the GREATEST things

Start with simple "things". sit, down, touch nose to held up hand, stay, roll over etc. play with your dog. tug, fetch, nose work (hide 4 treats in a room, let your dog find them, start easy, increase difficulty slowly). Take walks in quite places so it's you, dog, quite nature. during walk, when he looks at you, call him to you. little things like that add up quick. The biggest boost to my dog bonding with me. 1 week 100% no other dogs. I took us places we would not run into other dogs for 1 week.

There are no dog parks

Not a problem, this is a good thing in your case.

there is a park, but there is rarely dogs there....

This is perfect. if you can't get your dog to look away from a tree, a bird, a passing human walking, bike riding by, car driving past and refocus on you...it's NOT going to happen with another dog when you need it to. you have to build it up.

He is pretty attentive to me in my backyard I live in a duplex its more quite there, in our front yard he doesn't pay attention.

sounds like you are off to a great start, just rushing things and forgetting that in your house isn't the same as in your back yard, in your back yard isn't the same as in your front yard, in your front yard isn't the same as at the park. in each of these location you have to almost go back to square one and reteach what you are expecting of the dog. just because he can sit or focus on you in the house, does not mean it will translate without additional work to being in the park.

Inside he is always following me around and laying by me.

again, sounds like your off to a great start. sounds like your doing good building that bond.

using sit as an example. working in the house you build up a sit. your dog sits perfect, gold medal stuff for 1 minute at a time, without you even in the room. stuff of champions. but if you want that same level outside in the back yard, you start from square one. almost as if you have never taught sit. then repeat in the front yard, then repeat in the part etc. each time you start over in a new location, your dog learns faster till one day you notice...Hey, he just does it.

that same concept applies to EVERYTHING. him focusing on you, playing, etc, etc, etc.

again...sounds like your on the right track...just need to adjust a few expectations and slow down just a little and build up the same attentiveness outside as he has inside.

[guineapigs05]

I didn't realize I almost had to start over. I knew I had to train in different areas, but not start all over interesting. See and even being outside especially on a walk I haunt tried in a park yet, but he don't typically take treats from me and doing training in the house can be difficult as he tends to get super scared and submissive inside, but ill definably start training more other places. I can play games inside with him, but not formal training.training

[Alvater]

What I think...

If your dog is so stressed in the park/store/any place that he doesn't eat treats (if he eats them at home) you should work on that first.

When you can start training encounters with other dogs, find out, if there are any volunteers to help you with their dogs. Do you see someone walking their dog regularly? Ask on forums or check Facebook if someone living nearby would like to help you. Ask them when they walk their dog in the park and you can meet there and you can train your dog. Remember that you must keep a good distance in the beginning and that other dog should be well behaved and more likely ignore your dog. Then you can get closer and finally practice in other environments.

Have you checked Kikopup's training videos on Youtube? Here is how to teach a dog to stay calm in different situations: Capturing Calmness She has other videos too that are useful for troublesome pets.

Are you sure that your dog wasn't hurt when he did the bow practices? If he felt some pain then, he might have connected it with your training mode and now remembers it and gets scared.

I must admit that I have lost my temper in the precence of my collie and now, if she feels that I'm pushing her when I train her, she hides, or at least looks distressed. There is usually a phase in training where I have a strong feeling that we should be advancing faster and then, bang, she shuts down. Because she feels the urge in me and connects it with my bad temper. She also fears to fail and I have to remember to reward her often enough because then she thinks that she isn't doing well and either stops or shuts down. I've been working on this and she doesn't hide under the table any more when she thinks it isn't going well. What I've actually done is that I firmly but gently took her out of there and practiced something easy. There is no use to train anything when she is in that mood but I wanted to show her that nothing bad happens.

What I want to tell with this tale of my dog is that your dog is probably a bit sensitive and maybe reads something disturbing in you even if you do not mean it. He might remember something his previous owner did. Or you fear that the trick is going to fail and he'll hide again, and he smells this nervousness and that triggers the behavior. I'd let him be and reward when he chooses to get back. And try to end a training session before he gets nervous.

[jacksdad]

actually I am going to disagree with Alvater just a little in terms of trying to work your dog "against" other dogs at this time.

The basic idea Alvater is suggesting isn't horrible or wrong....but might be too advanced for your dog at this time.

If your dog is a nervous as you indicate, I would actually suggest forgetting about trying to train around other dogs for now. If just being outside he is too stressed to take treats when asked for a simple sit, then it's WAY to early to try and get him to be specifically dealing with another dog at any distance. If he is still tentative with you in the house, then it is for sure to early to try and work your dog "against" other dogs. You might even stop trying to train anything outside beyond some focus on you, and loose lead walking.

If this was my dog, I would only be training sit, down, stay type stuff indoors for now. I would not be worrying about other dogs for now. just avoid them. see dog, turn the other way. or cross the street if safe, pass on that side.

I would be putting my self between him and anything I even suspect is scary to him so he does not have to deal scary or suspected scary in anyway way shape or form. Even though I know this, I get it, and practice it, I am constantly amazed at how well this works. A couple weeks ago the dog group I belong to was on a hike. A VERY friendly, but VERY large dog was off leash, wasn't supposed to be in this area but was, and he came towards the group. many of the dogs in the group are formerly fearful dogs, and under stress, they return to "the old ways" even just a little. Without thinking I moved towards the dog, concerned mostly for my own dog, to block it and prevent it from mingling with the group. Friendly dog, not an aggressive bone in it, but it was BIG, and VERY friendly to the point of rude. Afterwards a couple other members mentioned that their dogs calmed down as soon as I moved to block the loose dog. These weren't even my dog, they aren't bonded to me, they don't see me as their protector/caretaker and yet they still "got it", that they didn't have to deal with this loose, large dog. dogs get this and it makes a difference. might take a little while to click if it's new to a dog, but once they get it and catch on, it really can make a difference in their stress or fear when scary comes around.

I would only be working on loose lead walking and rewarding being near you, looking at you, voluntarily returning to you and checking in. don't ask for them at this time, but reward anytime these things happen, it earns a treat and gentle praise. depending on the dog, I might not even touch or pet at this point.

I would not be asking for or worrying about sit, stay, down, recall etc outside yet. practice that stuff inside in short, calm, highly rewarding sessions. but for now, don't even attempt them outside.

I would do something like this for a month. Then reevaluate.

[guineapigs05]

I believe I mentioned it in my first post, but maybe not, but the problem is training him inside the house. That's when he gets nervous and sometimes pees. In my backyard he mostly pays attention to me. He is not nervous on walks he is just so so excited I think that's why he wont take the treats. He isn't nervous around other dog he just gets beyond aroused when he sees one he normally pulls to them and barks like crazy. Then I think out of frustration he starts looking aggressive. I want him to be calmer when going up to other dogs and not rushing to them and freaking them out. In my backyard I have about 85% of his attention. Inside is where I am having the real problem I can only train for a minute of even less and he will randomally run off and hide.

[lucyandbella]

Have you tried free shaping yet? even shaping something you don't even name or ask for later, just free shaping for him to think and get tons of rewards. For my stressy dog this is the game she loves most. She also can get freaked out in training sessions ( I once tried to lure a spin and that arm movement had her hiding in her crate the rest of the day). Free shaping is fun and he will get tons of rewards and to him he is right a lot so he can gain confidence. Free shaping will be your best bet on getting him relaxed and happy to train indoors in my opinion. For Bella I free shape with a new object all the time, so a box, or book, or step stool. Sometimes the end goal is always the same (like her standing on the object) but the point for her is more just getting rewarded and gaining confidence.

I don't know if you have done free shaping with him before, if you haven't this video is a good example of free shaping. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0XuafyPwkg.