Very aggressive Border Collie :(

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Sarie
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Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Sarie »

Hey everyone, does anyone know how one would go about contacting Victoria? My parents have a 3 1/2 year old Border Collie and their situation is escalating out of control and we're not sure who to turn to. In my opinion their dog is a ticking time bomb and I'd go so far as to say he's a dangerous dog. I'm not sure what can be done for him but they're desperate to help him as they're tormented by the thought of having to have him put down.
This is a very long story so I'll likely miss things out but please feel free to ask any and all questions and I'll answer anything I've missed. Sorry for the huge essay, but if you think you can help please, please read it :(

My parents have contacted several local trainers to date and are currently working with a behaviourist and trainer but they're just not getting the help they need and things are getting dangerous.

Bit of history... their Collie is around 3 1/2 years old, his name is Sam. He is run for around 1-2 hours a day at the beach (chasing frisbees) and has full run of the house and back garden during the day. He eats a mixture of wet and dry dog food.
He's an incredibly bright dog.. we've had collies before and they've always been very intelligent but Sam is exceptional.
From a young age he was taken to puppy classes and socialised and was taken to obedience training. However, from around 4-5 months old he started showing signs of aggression towards both dogs and humans.
With practice and the help of a trainer we managed to get his dog aggression under control and he's not too much of a problem with other dogs nowadays unless they go for him, in which case he will fight back but this isn't a major concern any more.
Our major issue is his people aggression.
He did attend obedience classes and agility to give him some focus but his unpredictability got to the point where my mum refused to work with him for fear of being bitten and unfortunately he now no longer attends these classes.
They're still taking him to work with their current trainer weekly though and they've been teaching him on a long lead.

From a very early age Sam showed guarding behaviour around his food, toys and bed. He also behaved fearfully if anyone leaned over him or attempted to groom him, yelping, barking and attempting to bite. We were told he was simply a fearful dog and were given techniques to help to improve his fear levels and teach him trust.
Despite attempting to follow these techniques and having even handed Sam over for 2 weeks to stay with a trainer for some more intense training/monitoring things have escalated to a point where the family are now afraid of him and this is obviously making things worse.

I don't know how trainers and behaviourists work but their current trainer doesn't honestly seem to believe that Sam has major issues. I think he thinks that Sam occasionally snaps at my parents or something. They've explained the issues to him and he says things like "Well I hear what you're saying but I just don't see it myself when I'm with the dog".
If he would provoke Sam he'd see the issues immediately...

95% of the time Sam is a lovely, happy, playful young Collie. He bounces around, he's obedient and friendly. However, he is 100% unpredictable and that's the biggest concern we've got.

In the last year Sam has bitten members of the family on numerous occasions and attacked a vet. I've seen his attacks and personally I don't believe he's fearful. What I'm seeing is not fearful behaviour, it's mauling behaviour.

Last week I was visiting my family and my parents wanted to show me how much Sam loves his long lead training. Mum called Sam to her heel in the kitchen and made him sit. Prior to calling him over he had been happily trotting around the kitchen showing off some new skills he'd learned with his last session at the behaviourist and seemed perfectly happy and content.
He sat happily at my Mum's heel and looked up expectantly at his lead. Mum was talking to him as she leaned down to touch his collar to find the ring to clip his lead on and as she leaned down an alarm went off in my head. It all happened far too fast to prevent at the time but in retrospect there was about 1 second (which set off the alarm bells) where Sam suddenly dropped his head and his eyes rolled backwards towards my Mum. This 1 second was the only warning and then he attacked.
He flew for my Mum and got hold of the top of her thigh and her jeans and wouldn't let go. At this point she started screaming in pain and shouting for help and was trying to back away. Sam let go for a second then flew for her again and got hold of her cardigan. She managed to rip herself free and run backwards away from him. He kept running towards her and freezing, he was frothing at the mouth and his hackles were all up. His eyes completely changed and he was 100% set on going in for another attack.
In sheer panic hearing my Mum crying for help and seeing what was happening I (stupidly) lunged in at Sam and tried to pull him away from Mum and he swung around and flew for me but thankfully missed. He then immediately ran back towards Mum and leapt at her again and got hold of her near her waist.
This whole incident lasted for around 45 seconds and it only ended when me and my Dad started lunging at Sam repeatedly together and he eventually appeared to snap out of it and ran into the hallway. We then locked him in another room whilst we went to help my Mum.

I'm not a trainer/behaviourist but I always thought a fearful dog would simply snap at someone and attempt to remove themselves from the situation rather than continuously attempt to attack repeatedly.

Now I know reading the above that there's all this technical stuff you should do when a dog goes into attack mode. Remain calm, don't run, don't shout etc etc but when a large dog has your Mum cornered and is going in for a full blown attack your instinct and adrenaline kicks in and there just isn't time to do all the "right" things. There was no warning, no growling or eye contact or time to back away from the situation, it all happened really fast.
This is the worst attack to date and has prompted this post but here's a little background on other serious incidents.

1. Dad got up to go to the toilet one night and accidentally got too close to Sam in the dark. Sam flew for him and latched onto his hand and wouldn't let go. In the end my Mum had to hit Sam on the nose to get him to release his grip. Dad's hand was very badly damaged.
2. I was staying at my parents and came out of my bedroom to go to the toilet. Sam was lying in the hall between my door and the bathroom. He wagged his tail so I said "Hey there Sam" and as I walked towards him he leapt up and started growling at me and walking towards me. I backed slowly away back into my bedroom and shut the baby gate and looked away from him. After a minute he snapped out of it and went and got a toy and brought it to me?! I went back to bed without going to the loo.
3. Mum went into her room to get a book. Sam was curled up and again, wagged his tail as she went past. She leaned down to say hello to him and he flew for her then lay back down.
4. Dad went to put a lead on Sam in the back of the car. He couldn't find the loop on his collar and after about 5 seconds (similar to the main attack I posted above) Sam suddenly flipped out without any real warning and attacked Dad. He tore all of his shirt and similar to above he kept coming back for more even when Dad managed to back away. Sam got out of the car and got Dad by the arm and bit all down his arm and his hand. He spent two days in hospital having the wounds treated and his arm is scarred.
5. My parents took Sam to the vets for his vaccinations. The vet was warned that Sam is aggressive (it's on his notes) and took him outside with my parents on his lead so he could be muzzled in a neutral location. The vet leaned down to muzzle Sam and he grabbed the vet by the leg and wouldn't let go. The vet managed to get free and tried to run away and Sam pulled the lead out of my parents hands and chased him and continued the attack. He attacked for over 3 minutes and the vet sustained quite bad leg injuries. The vet suggested that Sam was dangerous and should be PTS but didn't press charges. He won't work with Sam any more (unsurprisingly) and we've had to find another vet.

There have been numerous other minor attacks and bites but the above are the most recent and serious.
The biggest issue everyone has is the unpredictability. Sam can be happily wagging his tail and come wandering up to you seemingly happy and you can lean down to say hello or pet him and he'll suddenly, and without warning, fly for you. If he growled or showed some body language there'd be the opportunity to avoid the situation but there's no warning. Worse, the situation can be almost anything. Many of his more minor attacks have been provoked by him approaching us, not the other way around.
He even guarded the front door once and wouldn't let my Dad in the house. Dad had to go through the back door to avoid him but once inside Sam was fine and all waggy and happy to see him.

My parents describe him as Jekyll and Hyde. One minute he's fine, the next he wants to rip your throat out.

After the attack at the vets we bought him a muzzle and started trying to train him with it with the eventual aim of being able to muzzle him easily when we leave the house. My parents gave him the muzzle to play with and let him sniff it and over the course of 2 months they've had him eating treats out of the muzzle and he is now to the point where he comes running when you get it out and will let you rest it on his nose whilst he eats treats through it. However, nobody has dared to try to fasten it as we're afraid he'll snap and hurt us and also afraid if he does then it will ruin all the positive work we've done with the muzzle.

The problem is, even with a muzzle, you can't muzzle him 24/7.. that'd just be cruel. But it's not just out of the house where he has issues.. in fact most of his attacks occur indoors.

Please, please if you can offer any advice or help. My parents are absolutely traumatised by what's been happening over the last few years but they can't bring themselves to have him put down, especially if there's something that can be done to help him.
However, it's only a matter of time until Sam seriously hurts someone or worse. I don't even want to visit any more when he's there and I absolutely love animals, but particularly after seeing his attack on my mum I'm just terrified of him. The family are afraid to work with him because he's so unpredictable which makes it very hard to actually try to fix his problems :(

I know Victoria has worked with aggressive dogs before but there seems to be no way of contacting her. I can't find anyone out there who can help us. Most information I read relates to minor aggression or dog aggression but nothing on the scale of what we're dealing with and so far the trainers/behaviourists we've hired just aren't addressing the issue.
The current trainer is great with normal day to day training but he just isn't acknowledging the aggression at all.
Sarah83
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Sarah83 »

First things first, has he had a complete vet check? Not just your usual check of ears, teeth etc but a thorough one? I'm not sure what tests need doing but someone here will know what to advise you to have checked. Didn't want to just read and run though.
Sarie
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Sarie »

Sarah83 wrote:First things first, has he had a complete vet check? Not just your usual check of ears, teeth etc but a thorough one? I'm not sure what tests need doing but someone here will know what to advise you to have checked. Didn't want to just read and run though.
Thanks for your quick reply Sarah :) Our previous vet gave him a thorough check over for hip issues or anything obvious externally that could be causing aggression but that was as far as the tests went. Just prior to him attacking the vet I'd discussed with my parents having him x-rayed and having some bloods run for thyroid among other things and we'd even suggested an MRI to check his brain for tumours.

However, after his attack on the vet the vet told us that he didn't see any point in doing those things and that the dog should just be put down. My parents were really upset by his reaction and since then they haven't looked back into having a proper vet check done again because they're worried to take him to the vets.

If the general consensus is that these checks would be worth doing though then I'm sure my parents would be willing to give it a go. I think he'll need sedating before he goes to the vet though this time! Mum tried sedation for a vet visit once before but unfortunately it didn't kick in until about 8 hours after she dosed him so it was useless but if they can get the timings and dose right then I think this would be the safest thing to do...
Sarah83
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Sarah83 »

I think if they do want to try to get to the bottom of his behaviour then the tests are necessary. A behaviourist would want medical issues ruled out as a cause for the behaviour anyway so even if they go that route they'll need a full check done. Brain tumours can cause sudden and unpredictable aggression as can seizures. Pain can be a big factor in aggression too. No point treating a problem behaviourally if there's a medical cause for it.

Looking at the attacks you mention 3 of them have happened while Sam has been lying down and someone has gone towards him or gone to stroke him. 2 others have happened in relation to someone doing something with his collar (the muzzle incident could possibly also come under this too). Can you remember whether any of the others have happened around those triggers?
Sarie
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Sarie »

Sarah83 wrote:I think if they do want to try to get to the bottom of his behaviour then the tests are necessary. A behaviourist would want medical issues ruled out as a cause for the behaviour anyway so even if they go that route they'll need a full check done. Brain tumours can cause sudden and unpredictable aggression as can seizures. Pain can be a big factor in aggression too. No point treating a problem behaviourally if there's a medical cause for it.

Looking at the attacks you mention 3 of them have happened while Sam has been lying down and someone has gone towards him or gone to stroke him. 2 others have happened in relation to someone doing something with his collar (the muzzle incident could possibly also come under this too). Can you remember whether any of the others have happened around those triggers?
Nearly all attacks have happened when Sam has been sat or lying down and been approached or when you're attempting to touch him in general i.e. put a collar on him, put on his lead, groom him, put flea treatment on him etc.
A few others have occurred whilst he's been eating and someone has walked too close to him but we put that down to food aggression and were attempting to deal with that separately. One of our trainers simply said "Just avoid situations where you know he's likely to attack you." Great help they were...
There are some situations where we know you can cause him to flip out.. for example crowding him. If more than one person leans over him he will 100% of the time freak out and try to attack one of you. This is why we originally thought it was fear related but the thing I'd like to clarify is will a fearful dog continue a sustained attack and attempt to maul or is this a sign of some other behavioural issue?

It does seem like Sam simply doesn't like it when you attempt to touch him, especially if you're anywhere near his head. He has come over to me when I've been sat on the sofa and put his head on my knee and as soon as I've moved my hand towards him he growls and I have to get my Dad to call him away from me or tell him to go and get his ball. If he's in growling or showing aggression and you change your voice and excitedly ask him where his ball is he snaps out of it instantly and trots off to find his ball. I've been unable to try this whilst he's been in full blown attack mode though as I'm usually too busy freaking out.

He doesn't seem to be in any pain and I've never seen any symptoms of seizures from him, nor have my parents, but that's not to say there's not some underlying pain going on as I know animals are very good at hiding pain. It's why we originally discussed having tests done but with everything that's happened that plan got put on the back burner.
JudyN
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by JudyN »

He definitely needs everything possible checking medically, including bloods and a full thyroid panel.

You say you've had him from a puppy - was there anything in his previous life that could have affected his behaviour, such as early weaning or lack of socialisation? Do you know anything about the characters of his parents? Would it be possible to contact the breeder to see if there is any history of aggression, or reports of aggression in his siblings?

Also, have you used any negative training methods? Has he ever been punished for growling?
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Sarah83
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Sarah83 »

Sarie wrote: but the thing I'd like to clarify is will a fearful dog continue a sustained attack and attempt to maul or is this a sign of some other behavioural issue?
Could be either unfortunately. Sometimes a fearful dog will carry out a sustained attack, especially if other options are restricted or unavailable. The few times my previous dog met other dogs off leash he avoided them, on leash he attempted to kill them. He was no less terrified on leash, he just didn't have the option to run away from them which only left him the option to fight. Others just naturally choose fight over flight.

As for seizures, there are different types and they're not all obvious. But if almost all the attacks have happened when someone's been trying to touch him in some way I'd definitely wonder about it being a response to pain. Or anticipated pain. Is it always his head/neck area people are going to touch when he attacks?
ladybug1802
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by ladybug1802 »

I would say a full vet check would be a good starting point too....and having a dog who is fearfulk aggressive and cant be examined by the vet without being fully sedated, I know this is not easy to do!! I cant comment on the behavioural issues as they are severe and really need the help of a good behaviourist or veterinary behaviourist to work with you and see the issues. Where are you based?

My dog is just reactive to strangers now if they were to try and touch him too much, whereas before he would lunge at any stranger nearby....but he has always been fine with me or people he knows doing anything, and with him I vaccinate him myself and will, if he needs to be examined, inject him with sedative sub cutaneously in the car. But your poor chap wont let you do that....and I wouldnt try with him to be honest! What might be possiuble is to get some ACP type paste which is essentially an oral sedative whioch just 'takes the edge off'....and you could try giving him that and then seeing if that calms him enough to get him fully sedated. But the problem with ACPT is that when the adrenaline kicks in the dog comes out of the dozy state it has put him in!

It would be ideal to find a vet who is experienced at dealing with dogs like this....someone who wont be nervous....and yes if you can get to the stage where you can at least put the muzzle on that would be fab. Although I totally understand your reluctance to try and do it up given his extreme reactions. :(

I was also going to ask the same as Judy....whether you have ever punished him for growling, used aversives such as shock collars or the like in your training?
emmabeth
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by emmabeth »

Reading between the lines I too think this is a dog in pain or in fear of pain - your parents vet was wrong to make your parents feel the way they do - yes he MIGHT in the end be right but THEY are the customers, if they want to investigate things further then they can and should - I would strongly recommend they seek out another vet and have the tests done.

Can I ask, HOW did they/trainers deal with his aggression, food aggression etc, what was the advice there - ditto going for other dogs in training class and also what methods did the residential training place use?

This sounds to me like a dog who has a bloody good reason (pain) for his behaviour AND has been taught that there is no point growling, that won't stop people doing whatever it is causes pain.

Being a very smart collie, he would only need to experience something once or twice to learn from it so these problems can develop very fast and it can often be hard to pinpoint exactly what caused it as it may not seem important to you.
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pennyp
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by pennyp »

I have just come across these posts and am assuming they are about the same dog which you sought help about on another forum last July. I do offer great sympathy to your and your parents as it sounds as if the situation hasn't really improved, and, given the dreadful attack on your mother, deteriorated further. I do have a border collie, who is not an easy dog and somewhat unpredictable, but do not feel at all qualified to offer any advice about Sam. However, I wonder if you have come across someone who has immense experience with this breed, and with aggressive dogs. This is Barbara Sykes, who runs the Mainline Border Collie Centre, near Bingley, Yorkshire. She has published a book entitled Understanding & Handling Dog Aggression in which she describes her experience of rehabilitating a highly aggressive border collie. She does consultations and just may be able to help your parents. Her website is http://www.bordercollies.co.uk/index.php and gives information about her qualifications and experience.
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Nettle
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Nettle »

Pennyp, you are new - and welcome- :) but the ethos of this Board is kind positive training, and the trainer you mention uses methods that are neither. I have been to two of her seminars and have first-hand knowledge of what she does.
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Sarah83
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by Sarah83 »

I have the Barbara Skyes book mentioned, it's not one I'd recommend to be perfectly honest. I found it as much use as a chocolate teapot when it came to dealing with my dogs aggression issues. There are far better ones out there imo, ones that actually have practical advice about dealing with the actual aggression rather than just general stuff about rank reduction.
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Re: Very aggressive Border Collie :(

Post by emmabeth »

Hi PennyP - sorry that your welcome to the forums appears to also involve a bit of controversy..

Unfortunately, Barbara Sykes methods DO differ quite wildly from that of positive training, and the board philosophy here (which you can read stickied at the top of the forum).

I am another who has seen her work and read her books and I am afraid I am not impressed, and I would be so bold as to say, she would not get anything LIKE the results she appears to get with Collies, if she were to work with a less instruction-hungry breed, for example, a hound or a terrier.

Barbara talks a lot about pack and dominance - both things we really vehemently disagree with here, and relevant to this thread, I strongly believe adding in anything LIKE that sort of handling would have this dog put down quick sharp.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
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