I first want to thank you all for the fabulous guidance you give! I have been training for a little over two years in a large pet store. We offer puppy/beginner, intermediate and advanced classes. Karen Pryor wrote the curriculum that our trainers follow, so we are all positive reinforcement trainers. I went through two weeks of training and then was set free to teach. I was so afraid of making a mistake, but watched all of Victoria's shows, read her book, and read tons of other material. Eventually I gained confidence and realize I am good at what I do and easily connect with dogs and their people. Here is my newest worry: We just hired two new trainers with no experience who will be leaning on me. I will be using this forum often to ask your thoughts so I do not do any harm!
Recently, I returned to the trainer who trained me with some issues teaching heel versus loose leash walking. She told me she never teaches loose leash walking because a dog should ALWAYS walk behind or beside his person. She told me that pack mentality puts the leader first, as protector, and when a dog leads the walk ahead of his person, he is stressed out because he is always looking for something scary up ahead. The dog is stressed because he feels put in charge. Can you give your opinion on this? When do you feel a "heel" is useful and when taking a casual walk, do you think it is okay for your dog to lead, as long as there is no pulling?
Thanks!!!
Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
I think it's a load of old rubbish to be perfectly honest. My dog would never get any decent exercise if I insisted on him always walking behind, his natural pace is much faster than mine so off leash or on a long line he's way ahead.
On a regular leash as long as the leash is loose I don't care where he walks. If I need him to walk close by my side I simply shorten the leash and because he knows to keep it loose he stays close. I've never taught a formal heel as I don't compete in obedience so find it unnecessary. He's usually up ahead of me a little and I actually prefer him there as I can see his body language whereas if he were behind me I'd be clueless as to whether he was worrying about something until he was worried enough to actually react.
And even in a "pack" of dogs the more dominant dogs don't always walk in front. How often do you see a group of dogs walking along in single file according to rank? It just doesn't happen.
On a regular leash as long as the leash is loose I don't care where he walks. If I need him to walk close by my side I simply shorten the leash and because he knows to keep it loose he stays close. I've never taught a formal heel as I don't compete in obedience so find it unnecessary. He's usually up ahead of me a little and I actually prefer him there as I can see his body language whereas if he were behind me I'd be clueless as to whether he was worrying about something until he was worried enough to actually react.
And even in a "pack" of dogs the more dominant dogs don't always walk in front. How often do you see a group of dogs walking along in single file according to rank? It just doesn't happen.
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
Bullcrap. Hooey. Codswallop.
I like to teach a loose leash walk which means walk on a loose leash in a position I like, I don't mind slight deviations but do not ever put pressure on the leash, AND a 'walk very closely to me and don't look at anything else please until I release you'.
The former is used in places I need a dog to be on lead but he can sniff and look at the birds etc so on a wide pavement, in a pedestrian area etc - the latter is used on narrow pavements, if we are passing something we can't avoid etc etc.
I actually have a third which is 'hike on' and that means 'go ahead of me please' and we use that with a long line and I then want the dog ahead of me. I use that a lot on my mobility scooter out in the fields and I do not want the dog to drop behind or cross behind me as theres a risk he can get the lead tangled in the rear axle which is at best a pain in the butt to sort out and at worst, dangerous.
In the loose leash position my dog is roughly shoulders level with my leg, so I can see his head. In the heel position hes basically in the same place but he is not at liberty to sniff or drop back, and he has to frequently look at me.
I like to teach a loose leash walk which means walk on a loose leash in a position I like, I don't mind slight deviations but do not ever put pressure on the leash, AND a 'walk very closely to me and don't look at anything else please until I release you'.
The former is used in places I need a dog to be on lead but he can sniff and look at the birds etc so on a wide pavement, in a pedestrian area etc - the latter is used on narrow pavements, if we are passing something we can't avoid etc etc.
I actually have a third which is 'hike on' and that means 'go ahead of me please' and we use that with a long line and I then want the dog ahead of me. I use that a lot on my mobility scooter out in the fields and I do not want the dog to drop behind or cross behind me as theres a risk he can get the lead tangled in the rear axle which is at best a pain in the butt to sort out and at worst, dangerous.
In the loose leash position my dog is roughly shoulders level with my leg, so I can see his head. In the heel position hes basically in the same place but he is not at liberty to sniff or drop back, and he has to frequently look at me.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
Firstly well done for all your research and not being afraid to ask questions. I wasn't expecting you to say your trainer follows dominance theory - I would suggest they do a little extra research themselves, possibly try this book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominance-Dogs- ... 1929242808 it was suggested to me by members on this forum and put alot of things in prespective, hope it does the same for you.
I'm not a trainer of any kind and a pretty unexperienced dog owner (our dog Pepper is a Lab just 13months old) and I certainly wouldn't expect Pepper to walk next to me in heel position the whole time, the fact that sniffing and exploring is mentally stimulating for her and tires her brain out, while the walk tires her physically, is really the whole point of the walk. She walks ahead on an extended bungey lead, the only thing I don't let her do is zig-zag all over the place while walking on a pavement, she can do that when she's off lead.
I'm not a trainer of any kind and a pretty unexperienced dog owner (our dog Pepper is a Lab just 13months old) and I certainly wouldn't expect Pepper to walk next to me in heel position the whole time, the fact that sniffing and exploring is mentally stimulating for her and tires her brain out, while the walk tires her physically, is really the whole point of the walk. She walks ahead on an extended bungey lead, the only thing I don't let her do is zig-zag all over the place while walking on a pavement, she can do that when she's off lead.
Pictures of Pepper viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14364
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
I think there is a reason for a dog to walk slightly behind - this way the dog can keep attention on the human and follow the human. Nothing to do with rank, just it's easier for the dog to pay attention if she can actually see her human.
With that said - when I walk with Ari on his long 30 ft leash in the park - he can do what he wants within 30 ft radius circle. But when I walk him on the standard leash - I keep him right next to me, within a foot, and we walk fast, this way I think it helps him to focus on me and not get too distracted by all things and scents around.
With that said - when I walk with Ari on his long 30 ft leash in the park - he can do what he wants within 30 ft radius circle. But when I walk him on the standard leash - I keep him right next to me, within a foot, and we walk fast, this way I think it helps him to focus on me and not get too distracted by all things and scents around.
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
What's the fun in a walk if you can't go smell stuff? Heel is an important cue for safety reasons, but I see no need for that on a normal walk. As long as the leash is loose, he can keep going. I walk max on a 4 foot leash right now (we lost our 6ft one) so even if he is ahead of me on a loose leash its not like he's at the other end of the street.
--dontpugme
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
First, the book Rachel links is a good one. another good resource for what "dominance" is about in dogs is a webinar given by Dr. Suzanne Hetts & Dr. Dan Estep called "Dogs and Dominance - What Does Science Say". you can buy a replay here http://www.apdt.com/education/webinars/default.aspx you can also get a version from Dr. Hetts site here, but it is a version geared a bit more towards non trainers so she leaves out how "dominance" is determined as it isn't all that interesting to most non trainers http://www.animalbehaviorassociates.com ... inance.htm
Most of what we "know" about Social Dominance in dogs is incorrectly extrapolated from Wolfs and rationalized (aka guessing) how it applies to dogs. There are several problems with extrapolating how Social Dominance in dogs plays out from wolfs, but the two biggest is.
1. Most people's "knowledge" of wolves comes from some 1950's or there about studies of unrelated wolves in captivity. This actually isn't how stable packs occur. the most common and stable wolf packs are "mom" and "dad" having babies. And since it takes about 2 to 3 years for a wolf to mature physically and sexually, it's not unheard of for the previous year or two litter to be hanging around. Thus you now have a pack. "leadership" in wolves isn't acquired and maintained in a natural pack through aggression or fighting or posturing etc. It's acquired through having sex and producing babies. The pack leaders are the parents. when a "youngster" is ready to step up and be an adult and has that "urge" to have a pack of it's own, they disperse and find a mate, and start their own pack. So that is the cliff notes on wolf packs.
2. Dogs aren't wolves. They may share a common ancestor, but Dogs aren't wolves. there is actually very little published about dog social behavior and structure. what is known seems to point to a much, much looser social structure. Dogs DO NOT pack up like wolfs. they do not seem to use the pack structure to raise young and survive. there is much more of a every dog for them self, live and let live social structure to dogs. which isn't to say that dogs don't form social groups, and while I suppose you could call them a "pack" BUT it is VERY important that it is understood that IF (BIG, BIG if) pack is an appropriate term, that what it means for dogs is ENTIRELY different than what pack means for wolves.
Which makes sense. "We" took "wolves" that showed little fear and a "desire" to be close to us and then started selectively breeding them to make our lives easier. IF dogs were "driven" to form packs similar to wolves, that would make it much harder to have the dog focused on "me" to do the work I needed my dog to perform. Be it helping herd my flock or hunt for my food or any of the other tasks the various breeds were created to perform.
I agree with others. the person telling you that dogs need to walk behind or beside an the reasons given don't hold up to scrutiny. The simplest answer is generally the best and most correct. Taking over as leader is a complex and risky/expensive (in time, energy) endeavor. So odds are walking in front of you isn't about taking over or thinking "oh, I am now the leader because I am ahead".
The simplest, most logical reason dogs walk ahead of us is they walk faster than us. most dogs have a natural pace faster than most humans walk. The next simplest and logical reason is either they have been trained to walk ahead of you, OR (and this is probably more common) they haven't been trained NOT to walk ahead of you.
In terms of causing a dog to be stressed and fearful by allowing them to walk ahead of you....I suppose it all depends on the dog, but here is some food for thought. My fearful dog actually relaxed when he walk ahead of me so that he knew what was behind him was safe. when he walked next to me and someone came up from behind, he didn't like that. THAT made him stressed. and oh boy, hold on to your hat if that someone had a dog. But if I moved to be between him and that person be it by positioning him in front of me or the other side of me so I was between him and scary...he relaxed.
Absolutely nothing wrong with teaching a heel. it can be a useful skill. BUT I don't personally see a valid reason that a dog's entire walk needs to be in the heel position. Loose lead is just fine.
Most of what we "know" about Social Dominance in dogs is incorrectly extrapolated from Wolfs and rationalized (aka guessing) how it applies to dogs. There are several problems with extrapolating how Social Dominance in dogs plays out from wolfs, but the two biggest is.
1. Most people's "knowledge" of wolves comes from some 1950's or there about studies of unrelated wolves in captivity. This actually isn't how stable packs occur. the most common and stable wolf packs are "mom" and "dad" having babies. And since it takes about 2 to 3 years for a wolf to mature physically and sexually, it's not unheard of for the previous year or two litter to be hanging around. Thus you now have a pack. "leadership" in wolves isn't acquired and maintained in a natural pack through aggression or fighting or posturing etc. It's acquired through having sex and producing babies. The pack leaders are the parents. when a "youngster" is ready to step up and be an adult and has that "urge" to have a pack of it's own, they disperse and find a mate, and start their own pack. So that is the cliff notes on wolf packs.
2. Dogs aren't wolves. They may share a common ancestor, but Dogs aren't wolves. there is actually very little published about dog social behavior and structure. what is known seems to point to a much, much looser social structure. Dogs DO NOT pack up like wolfs. they do not seem to use the pack structure to raise young and survive. there is much more of a every dog for them self, live and let live social structure to dogs. which isn't to say that dogs don't form social groups, and while I suppose you could call them a "pack" BUT it is VERY important that it is understood that IF (BIG, BIG if) pack is an appropriate term, that what it means for dogs is ENTIRELY different than what pack means for wolves.
Which makes sense. "We" took "wolves" that showed little fear and a "desire" to be close to us and then started selectively breeding them to make our lives easier. IF dogs were "driven" to form packs similar to wolves, that would make it much harder to have the dog focused on "me" to do the work I needed my dog to perform. Be it helping herd my flock or hunt for my food or any of the other tasks the various breeds were created to perform.
I agree with others. the person telling you that dogs need to walk behind or beside an the reasons given don't hold up to scrutiny. The simplest answer is generally the best and most correct. Taking over as leader is a complex and risky/expensive (in time, energy) endeavor. So odds are walking in front of you isn't about taking over or thinking "oh, I am now the leader because I am ahead".
The simplest, most logical reason dogs walk ahead of us is they walk faster than us. most dogs have a natural pace faster than most humans walk. The next simplest and logical reason is either they have been trained to walk ahead of you, OR (and this is probably more common) they haven't been trained NOT to walk ahead of you.
In terms of causing a dog to be stressed and fearful by allowing them to walk ahead of you....I suppose it all depends on the dog, but here is some food for thought. My fearful dog actually relaxed when he walk ahead of me so that he knew what was behind him was safe. when he walked next to me and someone came up from behind, he didn't like that. THAT made him stressed. and oh boy, hold on to your hat if that someone had a dog. But if I moved to be between him and that person be it by positioning him in front of me or the other side of me so I was between him and scary...he relaxed.
Absolutely nothing wrong with teaching a heel. it can be a useful skill. BUT I don't personally see a valid reason that a dog's entire walk needs to be in the heel position. Loose lead is just fine.
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ClareMarsh
- Posts: 2008
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:11 am
- Location: London, UK
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
You know, all the dominance stuff when you step back from it really trivialises the relationship we have with our dogs. I'm pretty sure when Ted is out with me that he feels safe because I always deal with stuff and because I don't put him in situations that he can't cope with, not because he's two inches behind me1Stella98 wrote:She told me that pack mentality puts the leader first, as protector, and when a dog leads the walk ahead of his person, he is stressed out because he is always looking for something scary up ahead. The dog is stressed because he feels put in charge.
I taught him loose leash walking and I actually prefer him slightly ahead of me as I can see what he is doing and also no one can come up to him (person or dog) without me seeing. Also if he wants to change our direction he will stop, look back at me and then in the direction he wants to go, then I decide if I'm happy changing course. So he also knows who's in charge of where we're going despite the fact that he is in front of me 
Proud owner of Ted and baby Ella
My blog about Ted http://tinkerwolf.com/
Ted's Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/Tinkerwolf
Ted's You Tube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/TheTedVids
My blog about Ted http://tinkerwolf.com/
Ted's Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/Tinkerwolf
Ted's You Tube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/TheTedVids
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
There are so many misinformed "trainers' out there, and it seems you've stumbled across one. This isn't to say that she isn't good in other areas of training, but what good is it if she's spouting this nonsense? But kudo's to you for questioning that advice and coming here to further educate yourself! That is so commendable!
My dog will walk right beside me when I ask (well, most of the time ), like when we're crossing streets, passing walkers, other dogs, etc. But for a good bit of our walks she is out in front of me, even if it's just a little ways. Sometimes it's just a few inches, sometimes a few feet. As long as she doesn't put tension on the leash, we're all happy. This lets her explore and sniff around and really enjoy our walks.
Plus, my dog is a small Pembroke Corgi and she's low to the ground, so having her a bit in front of me helps me keep tabs on her so we don't trip each other up!
That is so commendable!My dog will walk right beside me when I ask (well, most of the time
), like when we're crossing streets, passing walkers, other dogs, etc. But for a good bit of our walks she is out in front of me, even if it's just a little ways. Sometimes it's just a few inches, sometimes a few feet. As long as she doesn't put tension on the leash, we're all happy. This lets her explore and sniff around and really enjoy our walks.Plus, my dog is a small Pembroke Corgi and she's low to the ground, so having her a bit in front of me helps me keep tabs on her so we don't trip each other up!
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
My dog walks in front, behind, by my side, by my other side... It's nothing to do with our relationship, it's to do with where the interesting smells are and how keen he is to get where we're going, or how tired he is. If walking along a road I hold the lead shorter and keep him by my side. As others have said, as long as the lead is loose I'm happy.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
Jack walks in front of me, because he wants to rule the world 
So kidding. We have a long flex leash and he wears a harness and I keep the leash whatever length suits the situation. Crossing streets or meeting people, Jack's right at my side. I like him ahead of me, in general, so I can see what he's doing and how he's responding to things. He often lags well behind when he's really into sniffing and marking. Then I have to call him (will work for food!) or sometime just pull him if he's ignoring me. I make sure to be aware of what's around us and also keep the leash short enough that he can't bolt into traffic. He isn't nearly as reactive as he used to be, but occasionally a bicycle or the sound of a diesel engine will set him off. I like the flex leash with him, because I can easily manage the length and also I can hit the brake button as soon as he starts to accelerate (squirrel!) so he never hits the end at high speed. This works well for us, though a larger dog I would work on the loose leash technique. What we've got now is more management than training. [shrug] 
So kidding. We have a long flex leash and he wears a harness and I keep the leash whatever length suits the situation. Crossing streets or meeting people, Jack's right at my side. I like him ahead of me, in general, so I can see what he's doing and how he's responding to things. He often lags well behind when he's really into sniffing and marking. Then I have to call him (will work for food!) or sometime just pull him if he's ignoring me. I make sure to be aware of what's around us and also keep the leash short enough that he can't bolt into traffic. He isn't nearly as reactive as he used to be, but occasionally a bicycle or the sound of a diesel engine will set him off. I like the flex leash with him, because I can easily manage the length and also I can hit the brake button as soon as he starts to accelerate (squirrel!) so he never hits the end at high speed. This works well for us, though a larger dog I would work on the loose leash technique. What we've got now is more management than training. [shrug] Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
so where did this whole, 'dog can't walk in front of me or he's trying to dominate' thing get wings???JudyN wrote:My dog walks in front, behind, by my side, by my other side... It's nothing to do with our relationship, it's to do with where the interesting smells are and how keen he is to get where we're going, or how tired he is. If walking along a road I hold the lead shorter and keep him by my side. As others have said, as long as the lead is loose I'm happy.
hunting dogs work in front of us, sheep dogs, you darn sure want your agility dog in front of you (doG forbid if my dogs had to work at my slow running speed!
)
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
gwd wrote:....so where did this whole, 'dog can't walk in front of me or he's trying to dominate' thing get wings???
hunting dogs work in front of us, sheep dogs, you darn sure want your agility dog in front of you (doG forbid if my dogs had to work at my slow running speed!
by trainers who don't know what they are talking about.
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
Must be a hell of a lot of extremely dominant guide dogs. Wouldn't be much use as guide dogs if they walked behind the person they're guiding would they?
Re: Is it wrong for a dog to walk in front of it's person?
those darn guide dogs are trying to dominate the poor handicapped person!Sarah83 wrote:Must be a hell of a lot of extremely dominant guide dogs. Wouldn't be much use as guide dogs if they walked behind the person they're guiding would they?