Does this really make a difference?

[chay]

ah bugger, yes you're right - thanks jacksdad! i was getting mech and rudolph schenkel confused

[bendog]

Sadly I think there are a hell of a lot of people who don't want to live with a dog who looks for ways to earn rewards. Most people I know want a dog who's there to do something with when they want to be bothered and content to lie in a corner and do nothing when they don't want to be bothered.

Yup - Sasha was one of those "stuffed dog" kind of dogs. Her owners wanted a dog, for COMPANY, but didn't actually want to DO anything with the dog. All she had to do was sit there, and give the occasional cuddle.

As a result she had zero training beyond a sit that she would do when she felt like it. To me, I couldn't believe someone could be living with a 7 and a half year old dog with no training because it was my worst nightmare. She wasn't housetrained, wasn't walked, begged for food, or stole it off peoples plates and barked out of the window at birds all day because she had nothing better to do. And you could hear her bark a mile off which led to complaints from the neighbours. For me, I personally could not live with a dog like that. I would FAR rather put the effort in to have a happy well behaved dog, than just tolerate inappropriate behaviour. Some people clearly would rather live with a dog as it is, and put up with bad behaviour because they are too lazy to fix it.

I'm the first to admit that they did "love" the dog, and spent a fortune on vet treatment for her allergies (none of which worked) but going back to what I said before - it's a one way relationship. The human is benefitting from doggy company, but the poor dog is suffering and they just don't see it. And to me dog ownership should be benefit both parties.

Yes - I do expect my dogs to settle down when I'm busy. But if they aren't ready to settle down and sleep then I'll give them a Kong toy to help keep them quiet . Poppy NEVER stopped when she was young, now she's a year and she has settled down a lot and on the whole they are happy to snooze during the day, BUT that's in part because they get two hours walking, lots of food puzzle toys, and some training and playing each day. If Poppy is bored I'm the first to know about it. If Ben is bored he brings me a toy. I might ask them to wait a minute or two, but it''s a reminder that I need to DO something with them, so we'll grab some treats and do some free shaping or something, or have a game, to keep them happy. Because if they are happy, then I am happy.

[minkee]

Oh and I've been told by several people that I should be stamping out rather than encouraging Spens enthusiasm and the slightly dramatic way he follows commands. Apparently the fact he drops like a stone when given the down command and hurtles back to me as fast as his legs can carry him when I call him isn't good, he should be performing these tasks much more calmly and slowly than he does The thought of punishing Spencers enthusiasm, extinguishing the light in his eyes, wiping his silly doggy grin off his face...well that fills me with horror to be honest. Especially when it comes to doing it simply because he's enthusiastic about working with me! Where do people get ideas like this??

Oh Sarah. It's so sad that people think this, and SO RUDE that they think they can tell you this!

[Nettle]

Oh and I've been told by several people that I should be stamping out rather than encouraging Spens enthusiasm and the slightly dramatic way he follows commands. Apparently the fact he drops like a stone when given the down command and hurtles back to me as fast as his legs can carry him when I call him isn't good, he should be performing these tasks much more calmly and slowly than he does The thought of punishing Spencers enthusiasm, extinguishing the light in his eyes, wiping his silly doggy grin off his face...well that fills me with horror to be honest. Especially when it comes to doing it simply because he's enthusiastic about working with me! Where do people get ideas like this??

Oh Sarah. It's so sad that people think this, and SO RUDE that they think they can tell you this!

The first thought I had was "There is just NO pleasing some people!"

Really they are flumoxed and peeved because you are making such a good job of Spen - and they can't see how because they don't know what you are doing and probably wouldn't want to listen if you explained.

[Sarah83]

It is sad and I really do hope that it's mostly sour grapes but then I see these people with their dogs and they're constantly tssting and jabbing them or telling them not to do this or not to do that and it makes me wonder. They honestly do seem to stamp out their dogs enthusiasm for anything and everything. I'll be the first to admit that Spen can get a little over excited in certain situations but he's becoming calmer as he learns what is expected of him and what works to get him what he wants. I'd much rather channel his enthusiasm into the right things than simply punish it.

And you're right Nettle, they have no interest in listening to how clicker training works or why I use it, they just ridicule me for being too soft with him and roll out all the old, tired "he's only doing it for the food, not to please you" rubbish. It's made me more determined than ever to change Spen from the teenage hooligan he was (and to some extent still is yet) into a well behaved adult dog. But then of course it will only have worked because he's a Labrador and wouldn't work with this breed or that breed

[JudyN]

Yep, some people's approach seems to be to wait until the dog's doing something they don't want him to do (even if it's walk a couple of feet ahead of them or greet another dog politely) and telling him off. Or they even tell him off before he's done it. Several times a friendly dog has come bouncing up to me and the owners have yelled 'Down! Down! Don't you dare jump up!' before he's even got to me

What really makes me laugh is the owners who are happy for their dogs to greet each other politely but tell them off if they sniff bums because it's 'rude' (as opposed to those who let their dog inspect Jasper's undercarriage for ages, following him when he moves away, even when I've told them he's going to tell them off at any moment).

[Sarah83]

Or they even tell him off before he's done it. Several times a friendly dog has come bouncing up to me and the owners have yelled 'Down! Down! Don't you dare jump up!' before he's even got to me

Oh, I'd probably fall into this category If someone comes to make a fuss of Spen I say "now keep that backside on the floor, we do NOT jump up!" but it's more to let the person know he has a tendency to jump and I don't want it encouraging than to tell Spen off. I don't let him go bouncing up to people though, it's people we meet who want to pet him.

[minkee]

Scout has a habit of catching approaching hands in her paws and giving them a good old lick. It saves muddy paws on legs at least, and I'll just label it as revenge for all the times those unasked for hands have reached out at a dog who hates them

[edit] so I suppose she only really 'jumps up' on people who deserve it? She does set a honey trap for them though, by sitting and waggling her whole body with a 'you DO want me, don't you!' face. I try to tell her nobody wants her, but she just doesn't believe me

[ClareMarsh]

I've worked with people who explained carefully what they wanted, praised any effort I put in and helped me learn. I've also worked with people who didn't explain things clearly, told me off for getting things wrong regardless of how much effort I'd put in or the fact that they couldn't or wouldn't explain how to do something.

I know who got the best out of me and how one lot made me feel . As I'm not a dog only one lot got my loyalty, sadly people abuse the loyalty of dogs every day.

[jiml]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ani ... er-animals

http://rogerabrantes.wordpress.com/2011 ... -nonsense/

interesting articles on subject.

[jacksdad]

Thanks for those links Jiml, good stuff.

I have been digging into the question of "what is dominance really" for a while and what I am finding...not even the actual experts (biologists/ethologists) agree on what it means. And it can get very confusing because of this. What one study defines it as, isn't the same as the next. There are even those that say it's an behavior that only arises out of captivity, that it doesn't exist in the wild. Some try to define leadership by use of "dominance" traits. Others only use it to describe the out come of competition over resources. some even try and argue that what we are defining as dominance and all that it entails is a human perception. that the animals them selves might not perceive things the same way we are. getting confused yet?

To say dominance in dogs is a myth is 100%, absolutely, undeniably, inarguable.......partially true. When you actually look at what most biologists/ethologists are trying to say, describe, label, define etc, it is NOT what many dog trainers/experts put forth as what "dominance" is. And how that faulty definition plays into training `a la "dominance theory" falls apart very quickly. it's unhelpful, confusing, misleading, and has lead to some horrific training practices. So in that sense, yes, dominance in dogs is a myth. And does not in anyway help actually understand what is going on with our dogs.

However, there are behaviors that yes, even our dogs exhibit that does fall into what is trying to be defined and labeled as "social dominance". When looking at the studies, thoughts, arguments, MOST seem to lean towards "dominance" (or as I have seen very convincingly argued as the more correct term "social dominance") being a means to describe a relationship between two individuals when in competition over a desired or limited resource. verse a fixed role/trait of a individual that is inherent in them or their species or breed. Or an explanation of behavior such as why your dog is on the couch/bed or pulling while on a walk. There also seems to be a fluid nature to it as well. Who is "dominant" is dependent on many factors and can NOT be determined by a single encounter and must be figured out through repeated observation.

In my humble opinion...what is dominance is an interesting question, but not the most relevant place to put energy for most dog trainers/owners. I think people interested in behavior should be getting their heads around the question. Which isn't to say if your not interested in being a behaviorist you shouldn't try and understand what is dominance, just that if you have limited time/resources for advancing your "dog education" and your not looking to be a behaviorist you aren't harming your self by not studying the question. I have yet to find anything that makes me think understanding dominance is critical to being a good trainer/owner, or helps you teach a better sit, or a better loose lead walk or silly tricks or to help a fear aggressive dog.

I would submit that the vast majority of trainers and owners would benefit more from learning what is in these two books if they want to "geek out" than worrying about "what is dominance"

EXCEL-ERATED LEARNING - EXPLAINING HOW DOGS LEARN AND HOW BEST TO TEACH THEM
by Pamela Reid, PhD

DON'T SHOOT THE DOG
by Karen Pryor

[WufWuf]

In my humble opinion...what is dominance is an interesting question, but not the most relevant place to put energy for most dog trainers/owners. I think people interested in behavior should be getting their heads around the question. Which isn't to say if your not interested in being a behaviorist you shouldn't try and understand what is dominance, just that if you have limited time/resources for advancing your "dog education" and your not looking to be a behaviorist you aren't harming your self by not studying the question. I have yet to find anything that makes me think understanding dominance is critical to being a good trainer/owner, or helps you teach a better sit, or a better loose lead walk or silly tricks or to help a fear aggressive dog.

So strange I said almost this exact thing (and much of the previous paragraphs) to my OH a few minutes before I read your post.

I too am very interested in the social interactions of dogs and spent a large amount of time watching the group at the rescue trying to get my head around it. It's facinating to watch how things play out between different personalities.