These dogs are impossible...

[Juniper]

Ok, let's start by saying, that these dogs don't belong to me. I'm taking care of them now, and their family comes back in a week.

They are older females, other one is mixed breed, about the size and color of a Finnish Spitz, and the other one is Finnish Spitz.

They are normally outdoor dogs, but now I took them inside because I don't want to drive to their home two or three times a day to feed them.

Normally they live in a tiny cage (about 20 square metres), and go out on walks couple of times a week (Yea, I know it's terrible, but these people are my relatives, and I don't want to tell them that I think it is terrible to let these dogs live in a small cage and not walk them every day. I think they have dogs just because it is normal for a house in the countryside to have a badly-behaved mutt barking at everything at the corner of the yard. Sometimes they yell at the dogs "Be Quiet!", but it doesn't have any meaning. Maybe because the dogs don't understand)

They are impossible to walk. They don't pay attention to the walker, they pull all the time, and don't understand what I want from them. Possibly because nobody expects them to listen and obey. Also, they bark at anything that moves when they are in their cage. The Spitz gets so excited when somebody is going to their cage, that she just jumps around, barks and runs. I decided that I don't get in when she barks, and I have waited about 10 minutes in front of the cage, and opened the door when she had been quiet for a while. I did it a couple of times, when I had to get in, but maybe I should do it many times, even if I don't have to get in.

When they do go on walks, they walk on retractable leashes, and they walk as far as the leash lets them, sniff around and don't pay attention to the walker. I don't like their leashes, so I took another leash, a normal one, and I don't let them walk freely, because it is just impossible.

I know about the turning and the stopping. That is just impossible. If I stop, and they let the leash loosen, and I start again, a second later I should stop again. Today I have time to try to walk with them for hours, but I think they are just so stupid, or so used to their own way, that it is impossible to make them learn new things.

I think it would be better for them to stay with me here, and I would walk them three times a day, but it feels like it is so terrible that I want to take them back to their cage. Just bring them food and let them bark at everything.

They don't sit on command (the mixed breed sits on command when we are inside or in their cage and I have a treat, she also knows how to shake hands, but doesn't do it outside on a leash, then she is deaf). They just stare at me thinking what I want. They don't understand that I don't want them to walk through the door before me. They don't understand that they are allowed to walk through the door only when I walk first and give them permission. Last time I tried, I had to stop them from coming through the door by hand, because me standing in the doorway wasn't enough. They tried to walk through me. And when they realized I didn't let them come through right away, the Spitz didn't want to come in at all, she wanted to go out again, and refused to come in.

Oh, and when they are inside with me, the Spitz just whines half the time. And I know she doesn't have to go. She just whines and whines and whines. After our walk last night she slept soundly, but now, in the morning, she whines. I just walked them shortly so they could pee, because they are not used to holding it so long.

Now they are just sitting in front of the door, waiting to get out, and I want to go back to bed... They walked around half of the night, sometimes laying down, sometimes walking, checking what I did, and walked around again. They tried to start barking when my neighbor left to work. Both of them barked a bit, but stopped when I told them no. Apparently they do listen, if I go next to them and touch them...

Would somebody have some ideas how to make them listen, or are they impossible to train?

--
Juniper

[Maz]

Firstly I am no expert but just want to say relatives or not PLEASE tell them this is so wrong - these poor dogs need their exercise and training - how can people just keep them penned up?? I think I would try walking them solo. They are not stupid - it's the only thing they're used to and anything else is just alien to them at the moment. I feel so sorry for them ... please try and make things better for them.

[Juniper]

Yea, I've been trying to get my mom realize that you have to take cats to the vet every now and then to check up, but "we have had cats always, and they have lived happy lives without vets, vaccinations and medicine for worms"... At least she keeps her cats inside, and feeds them good food.

It's next to impossible to get these people to realize how to keep dogs. It would be almost okay, if the dogs got out every day to their walk, but they have no time to walk them. It makes me wonder, why they took a dog if they don't have time for her. They only feed her, and let her stay in her cage. The Spitz came in because my uncle died, and the dog had to get a new home, or be put to sleep. She had never walked in a leash before...

I agree that it would be better to walk them separately. Maybe make them run with bicycle (the Spitz is used to it in her previous home). I will try walking them separately in the evening when I go to feed them again.

I tried the training technique I saw in one Me Or the Dog episode, where the dog had to touch trainers hand with his nose, and that way he got a treat. Actually the mixed breed dog realized it quite quickly. She tried to high five me, but eventually she understood what I wanted. At least she is not stupid, but they are so excited to go out, and they are so excited if someone pays attention to them, that they stop listening. I had dried chicken bits, and they loved them. With the chicken bits they stayed and came to me when I asked.

It just feels like it's all in vain, because nobody will pick up where I leave them in their training. I believe that the Spitz will stop barking eventually if everyone would always wait until she is calm before entering the cage. She is slowly understanding, and I didn't have to wait for ten minutes this time. Yea, I had to take the dogs back, because they are not able to stay here calmly when they are alone. They will make so much noise that other people will be annoyed. At least I'm walking them so that they don't have to stay in their cage all day. And I feed them better food than what they normally get.

I just hope that they will never ever take dogs again.

[runlikethewind]

Anyone reading this who is a trainer and who understand dogs is going to be upset. I'm not sure exactly what advice you are needing or what you want to hear, but others may understand better than me.

I think you know this but it's not a question of these dogs being stupid or annoying or whatever. They simply are not having their full needs met which is animal cruelty. Sure they are being fed and they have shelter but what else? They have no idea what is expected of them, they don't know what fun it is to learn how to work with humans. They are overexcited simply because, with you, they have glimpsed a life they could have. All very normal - and all very sad.

If I were you, I would not give them a taster of a life they could have because they will have to go back to their existence when you stop looking after them and this is going to be very hard on them (and you). Either this, or you take these dogs on yourself to give them a proper enjoyable life.

[Juniper]

I would love to have dogs on my own, but my life is so unstable with me moving all the time that no dog would enjoy that. I know that these dogs, or any dogs, are not annoying because they want to. They do what they always do. If nobody guides them to behave better, they will behave the only way they know how.

I just wanted to know, if someone would know some easy ways to teach the dogs, which I could pass on to the owners, because I want the dogs to live a better life than what they have right now. I just wish they have time to carry on the easy training when I'm not there.

And I don't know if they enjoyed their stay with me. Every time I showed them their place and expected them to do what I want, waiting the correct behavior and not letting them out before they calmed down, they didn't even keep their tails up like a normal Spitz. But when we were inside, they seemed to enjoy the petting and training, and they wag their tails when they see me. And the mixed breed trusts me, because she is a bit unpredictable with some people. She doesn't bite, but she nips. She's never done that to me.

I like these dogs anyway, the only thing I hate is walking them.

[runlikethewind]

Then your next bet bet is to explain to them as nicely and constructively as possible that they are not meeting the dogs' needs. How old are are the members of their family? Would they come here for advice? Would they have a trainer out to help?

[emmabeth]

You have pretty much correctly identified what the problem is - (and it isn't because the dogs are stupid which I am sure you know) - it is that the dogs have NO motivation at all to pay any attention to a person, and why is that.. its because in their experience, people mean nothing except deliver some food and shout at them to be quiet.

Working with all three at once you will get pretty much nowhere - work wtih ONE at a time and you might achieve something..

So pick 1 dog - work on teaching that 1 dog that he sits when the lead comes out and is clipped on, he sits as the door is opened, he walks beside you as you walk.

You will need to be calm and patient for this, use food rewards to lure the sit if he doesn't know it, for the walking, set yourself FIVE MINUTES ONLY.. set stop watch for it, and walk briskly, the second (which will be about the first second you set off!) he gets ahead of wher eyou want him to be you will about turn and go the other way... again the second he gets ahead, about turn, go the other way.

You need to be fast with the about turn and you MUST make sure that the leash is still slack when you turn, if you wait until the dog is already putting pressure on the leash, it is too late and he WONT learn what you want him to.

Now all this about turning will make you dizzy and you won't get very far, BUT - it is hard work for the dog too and you should have a pretty tired out dog at the end - so then I would give that dog a Kong toy with some food smeared in it, adn work on the next dog.

Doing this with each dog, even f you only get them out for 3 x 5 minute walks a day each (so 15 minutes walking total) will result in three much happier, tireder dogs who behave nicer! If you have the time to do more I would highly recommend you clicker train them - there is a thread in the Articles section and you should definitely check out Kikopups videos on Youtube as well!

If you do this, you might well find you can clicker training some of th edogs something cool, and improve their walking and that demonstrates to the owners that their dogs HAVE the potential to DO stuff and be good dogs... its just THEY who are not putting in the effort. I find a demonstration like this is much much more hard hitting than just telling them - they have to believe their own eyes!