Female in Season and causing problems !

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emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth » Wed May 28, 2008 10:59 am

Me and My Dogs - i can appreciate what you are saying.

However, what a rescue/shelter wants is to benefit the dog population as a whole, so yes more neutering, more fences, more responsible owners does that..

But THIS forum is not a specific rescue forum its about dog training and behaviour and what WE want is to solve each dogs specific problems, so we are all about the individual here.. not the generic masses.

So whilst I might well say if I'm discussing rescue practices as a whole that neutering is wise, (and actually I probably wouldnt but thats another argument entirely)... in the interests of the individual dog, that the owner has to live with for the next 10 years or more, Ill say something different.

After all, to the rescue owner who wants to limit the numbers of dogs coming in, what is a little bit of incontinence and a wooly coat..

To the individual owner, that could mean the difference between having the dog and not having it.

In any case, certainly in the uk, neutering to prevent dogs needing to be rescued, theres a bit of a chicken and egg situation going on.

Whilst unwanted puppies are a problem, it is the irresponsible owners, incapable of looking after their dogs, who demand the production of puppies, breed for the hell of it because little Joe wants to see the miracle of life.... that cause dogs in rescue. MOST dogs in rescue are not puppies and most didnt come in as puppies... the reason they come in, is not because they were not neutered but because they were owned by an idiot.

And for the most part, those are not the people on this forum.

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Mattie
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Post by Mattie » Wed May 28, 2008 2:50 pm

For many years the next town to me had a neutering scheme running, they neutered thousands of dogs and bitches, it didn't solve the dog problem, the difference it made was very little, they still had far to many dogs coming into the rescue. It is the back yard breeders and the puppy farms that are producing too many pups not the dog owners. Until these are stopped, we will always have the dog problem.

Personally I think spaying and neutering at a very young age is cruel and shouldn't be done, dogs should be allowed to mature naturally and I have never seen anything to suggest that dogs are worse off by being allowed to mature at the pace that suits them both physically and mentally. Early neutering also affects a dog mentally.

I know from the way my bitches matured when they had their first season just how important it is for them to mature properly.

The timing of spaying a ***** is also important, too close to a season can leave them with raging hormones for the rest of their lives and is a reason why many bitches keep being retuned to rescue, their owners can't cope living with a dog like this. This is even worse if a ***** is given an abortion and spayed at the same time.

I can understand rescues neutering, they don't want their dogs to go to people who will use them as breeding machines which does happen when rescues don't neuter.

The USA also has a back yard breeder and puppy farm problem, maybe if more went into stopping these the dog problem will reduce greatly.
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Me and my dogs
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Post by Me and my dogs » Wed May 28, 2008 3:48 pm

Actually, I was answering to a comment that seemed a tad snippy regarding fences - and clearly written by someone who has no idea of the residential landscape that is California where 6 -8 foot fences are the norm. Of course the additional comment regarding "inadequate fences" or "careless owners" came of as extremely judgemental and w/out expereince in dealing w/ people who have lost their pets. I hate to tell ya but the world isn't perfect nor are the people in it and that horrible accident that all pet owners want to think will never happen to them sometimes happens - somehow their pet has gotten out.

Wandering is a problem that I have yet to hear anyone dispute w/ intact animals. Not anyone from the various veterinary schools of behavior, Humane Society, SPCA, etc. - nor from the link provided which didn't seem to address any behavior issues. Will ALL of intacts wander? I'm sure not 100% of them will but a good many will have a strong instinct to reproduce while still intact and act on the scents they pick up.

As for some comment about what if an animal goes over a fence at a postman or a cat? That would be clearly different and the focus would be the postman or the cat (guarding, barrier aggression, or prey drive)- not a dog following the scent of a female in heat. That would also allow for equal opportunity strays - both intact and altered. I would also say that's often the case of a bored, underexercised animal and/or poorly managed (constantly allowed to fence run - do we now want to dispute the adrenalin build up that happens in these cases?).

Some of the health concerns I've not encountered - ever. Others raised, as w/ animals w/ incontinence, I've encountered far fewer of those than I have animals w/ pyometra. In fact, the link Emmabeth provided somewhat supports that (Yikes! 23%! 1 in 4 ? That's a lot of pyometra!).

From the first link:

[quote]On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors
On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinenceâ€
The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience. ~Eleanore Roosevelt

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Mattie
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Post by Mattie » Wed May 28, 2008 5:48 pm

Me and my dogs wrote:Actually, I was answering to a comment that seemed a tad snippy regarding fences - and clearly written by someone who has no idea of the residential landscape that is California where 6 -8 foot fences are the norm. Of course the additional comment regarding "inadequate fences" or "careless owners" came of as extremely judgemental and w/out expereince in dealing w/ people who have lost their pets. I hate to tell ya but the world isn't perfect nor are the people in it and that horrible accident that all pet owners want to think will never happen to them sometimes happens - somehow their pet has gotten out.
Are all the fences in California well maintained, do none every have any gaps in for dog to get out, do dogs never dig under fencing in the USA? As to being judgemental, your first post on this thread was judgemental to the person who asked for advice. As to your comment about not having experience in dealing with people who have lost pets, that is really nasty and doesn't have a place on a dog forum which is here to help owners with their dogs. You have no idea what experience anyone on here has but seem to think that you are better than everyone else.
Wandering is a problem that I have yet to hear anyone dispute w/ intact animals. Not anyone from the various veterinary schools of behavior, Humane Society, SPCA, etc. - nor from the link provided which didn't seem to address any behavior issues. Will ALL of intacts wander? I'm sure not 100% of them will but a good many will have a strong instinct to reproduce while still intact and act on the scents they pick up.
A dog doesn't have to be intact to wander, one of my dogs now at the Bridge used to take herself off by jumping 6ft 7in high fence after a very long walk. She was spayed when she was 6 months old.
As for some comment about what if an animal goes over a fence at a postman or a cat? That would be clearly different and the focus would be the postman or the cat (guarding, barrier aggression, or prey drive)- not a dog following the scent of a female in heat. That would also allow for equal opportunity strays - both intact and altered. I would also say that's often the case of a bored, underexercised animal and/or poorly managed (constantly allowed to fence run - do we now want to dispute the adrenalin build up that happens in these cases?).
Not true, none of my dogs have been bored, under exercised or poorly managed but several would try to escape to get at the postman but more so the postman.
Some of the health concerns I've not encountered - ever. Others raised, as w/ animals w/ incontinence, I've encountered far fewer of those than I have animals w/ pyometra. In fact, the link Emmabeth provided somewhat supports that (Yikes! 23%! 1 in 4 ? That's a lot of pyometra!).
I have a ***** with incontinence and had 2 previously, apart from my 2 youngsters, this is 3 out of 4 bitches that I have had. Samantha was spayed after her second season, she had 3 months between seasons, Dixie was spayed after her first season and I don't know when Gracie was spayed, it was done before I got her.
In fact, reading the above info again brings me pause to a few issues. Example: We vaccinate EVERY animal that comes into our shelter (except feral cats) and in the last 3 years we've had only one with an adverse reaction to a vaccine and it was an intact female cat.
I have a dog that has adverse reactions to vaccinations and on the vets instructions, he is not to be vaccinated.

Sorry, I can't read those quotes, the words run into each other.
What I do know is, over the last 8 years the shelters in our area have seen a dramatic decrease in the number of puppies coming into our shelters - so the public education program is working on that end.
In the UK we don't get a lot of pups in rescue, they are mainly adult dogs, many very old and ill. You are talking about the USA, the person who asked for advice lives in the UK which has different problems to you but you seem to think that what solves your problems will also solve ours, they won't because our problems are different.

Last year I adopted an ex breeding *****, she was 10 years old, 4 years ago I adopted another *****, she was 12 years old. They had both been someone's pet, even the ex breeding *****, this is more the problem over here, it won't be solved by the same practices that will solve the problems in the USA. As you know nothing about the UK, will you please stop attacking us, I may not be so polite if you continue.
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emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth » Wed May 28, 2008 7:15 pm

*puts on mod hat*

Play nicely now folks, please lets not hi-jack the OP's thread, this is about HER dogs and not the numerous dogs in rescue in either the UK or USA.

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Mattie
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Post by Mattie » Thu May 29, 2008 4:33 am

Sorry Em, :oops:
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