My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

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sucittanna
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:03 pm
Location: Colorado

My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by sucittanna »

Tomorrow will be one month since I've had Atticus. He is now 7 months old and is a border terrier mixed with jack russell. His previous owners were giving him away because after having him 4 months they couldn't deal with him anymore. I knew it was going to be a lot of work, but I thought he was still young enough to get over this with help and a person that had time for him. Other than a few miner issues that I can blame on his previous owners, who just didn't train him whatsoever and were never around, he's a good, smart and affectionate dog. This probably wouldn't be such a big issue in another location, but where I live many people bicycle for transportation and recreation. There is no where to go to avoid seeing bicycles, they are everywhere. Usually when we leave our house, we will see one within a minute or two of closing the front door. On an average walk we will see about 10-20 of them. By the way, he is not scared of a bicycle when it's not moving even with a person sitting on it or just the bike itself while parked, the only bike that freaks him out is one that is coming from a distance. He doesn't do this to motorcycles, or scooters, or skateboarders - just bikes.

This dog is a terrier and he is fearless, except for the bicycles. I wrote that he cries, because when he sees them he doesn't bark his usual bark, it's a loud ear piercing cry, like someone is hurting him physically. Everyone on the streets turns around to see what is making that horrible sound. The previous owners told me he was already like that when they got him, and it appears that his tail was broken at one time because it's crooked now. I'm thinking maybe a bicycle ran over his tail when he was just a small puppy?

We are currently taking an obedience clicker class but nothing I have learned so far is allowing me to help him.

The thing is, I've taken him hiking in the mountains on trails that don't allow bicycles, and he's a great hiking companion. He seems to like meeting people and dogs on the trail, is very friendly, walks pretty good on the leash and listens to me. It's really fun taking him hiking. On streets where there are bicycles, he is tense, always looking for them - scanning up ahead and keeps turing around. He is not relaxed at all. And once he actually sees one, he will cry from the moment he sees the bicycle to the moment it disappears from his sight, and on a straight road, that takes minutes. And for about 10 minutes after seeing the bicycle, he's pulling on the leash, barking at anyone that passes us, and looking around even more for the next bicycle.

My obedience class instructor told me to get his attention before a bicycle approaches us and to try to avoid bicycles until he can deal with them, but that's impossible. First of all, he has better eye sight than me, so he can spot a bicycle way before I can. Once he sees it, there is no where to escape to, unless there is a side street, and usually there isn't one or we just don't have enough time to get to it. If we do try to get to a side street, I'm basically dragging him because once he spots the bicycle it's tunnel vision. He is also not interested in treats, so once he sees a bike I can't get his attention.

I've been trying to have him observe bikes from a distance where he is not reacting to them, and I want to click and treat and hopefully keep moving closer, but even at that great of a distance, he still has tunnel vision and will not look away, I've shoved treats in to his mouth and he just lets them drop to the ground. So how do I reward him for not crying if he will not give me any attention and won't take the treats?
Jindo
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by Jindo »

Your dog being afraid of bicycles shouldn't be some kind of big problem that needs to be fixed, it's a fear your dog has and will probably be a part of him, and from what you're saying perhaps there isn't anything that you can actually do for him that can stop him from fearing bicycles. Sometimes dogs are simple afraid or dislikes things and no amount of treats can fix it and you know what, that's just something you may have to accept. How long does it take for your dog to react to you when you're dragging her away?
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jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by jacksdad »

Poor guy.

It's not all hopeless, you can help your dog and your clicker trainer is on the right track.

I will be important to minimize his "contact" with moving bikes initially as much as possible. there are a couple ways to do this. you can go to places that don't have a lot of bikes or you can take walks at times you are less likely to run into bikes. Very early mornings, late evenings for example. Going to have to disagree with you on the eye sight issue. dogs aren't blind by any means, but we humans as a rule have better eye sight than them AND we are taller so we can see the bike coming before they dog. which gives a few seconds to put a avoidance plan to work. even if you don't have stellar eye sight your self, you can with practice see the bikes first. trust me, with my dog who reacted to other dogs the way yours does to bikes, with practice I could tell if someone coming towards us was walking a dog just by the way they walked/held their body. even if I couldn't yet see the dog. bikes are MUCH easier to see.

The basic "tools" to help your dog are...

Avoid bikes. this is necessary to give your dog a break. the more a dog is exposed to the thing that scares them, the more easily they will "flip out". this is because of built up fear and stress. if your dog can get a break, they relax, stress hormones clear out out of their body and they are better able to deal with what scares them in a controlled and safe way.

Take more frequent walks, but for shorter periods.

Be a wall/shield for your dog. this is basically making sure you are between scary (in this case bikes) and your dog when they approach and pass you.

Auto watch. this is where you train your dog to turn and look at you when it see's scary, again in this case a bike. the goal isn't to cue your dog but for your dog to see a bike, then turn and focus on you.

Look at that. this is where you reward your dog for calmly looking at what scares them.

Because of the way you describe your dog reacting to bikes, that you have bikes everywhere, and your dog locks in visually on them, typical terrier response by the way. I would strongly recommend starting with the "auto watch" option combined with adjusting your walks to minimize "exposure" to them.

Ultimately you want your dog to be able to look at and watch bikes go by and be calm, but I don't think you will make much progress if you start with that option. Both "auto watch" and "look at that" will alter how your dog feels about bike in the long term, but "auto watch" gives your dog a tool to cope right now and you can almost never go wrong with encouraging your dog to focus on you.

Before you can transition to the "look at that" option your dog NEEDs to feel safe, and so you will need to really see those bikes coming and move to put your self between your dog and the bike. terriers don't make this easy as they WANT to face the threat and take it on head on, but your dog WILL clue that you are dealing with the bike for him and if he just stays behind you he is safe.

to start building the "auto watch", start in your living room. reward your dog for looking at you. you can either have this as eye contact or just looking at you in a general sense. it really doesn't matter. clicker training will make this a very quick and easy skill for your dog. Once your dog will turn and look at you on cue, such as "watch me" or just "watch", take it out side, start from basically the beginning and train him to turn and watch you when a person walks by, a car drives by, basically anything that doesn't bother him, but is a mild distraction. then do this with things that sort of bother him etc. once it's really solid, then and only then try it with bikes. maybe start with a stationary bike. then if you have a friend to help maybe have someone push a bike just a little for movement but don't ride etc. build it up so you can ask your dog to watch you will a bike goes by on the other side of you.

Once you have that "tool" in place and you see at least a 50% improvement in your dog, then and only then would I consider trying some "look at that" with bikes. when you to this point, build "look at that" also known as "LAT" the same way you did with "auto watch". Then when you got to actually use it with someone riding a bike, find a park somewhere that gives you LOTS of distance so your dog can feel safe while watching bikes go by.

Lastly, be sure to give your dog breaks from training to not be fearful of bikes. two or three days a week, make your goal to greatly minimize his "exposure" to bikes. if you have a really good day and he is handling bikes really good, even if it's only one or two bikes for example, end your session and go home. let him have a break. take the next day off. success can be stressful too and it's easy to get excited and want to push things when all is going right/well but that is when it's time to call it a day.

That is where I would start. please, please don't hesitate to ask questions. get clarification or if this doesn't seem to be working lets talk there is always something that can be adjusted or tried.
sucittanna
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:03 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by sucittanna »

jacksdad wrote:Poor guy.

It's not all hopeless, you can help your dog and your clicker trainer is on the right track.

I will be important to minimize his "contact" with moving bikes initially as much as possible. there are a couple ways to do this. you can go to places that don't have a lot of bikes or you can take walks at times you are less likely to run into bikes. Very early mornings, late evenings for example. Going to have to disagree with you on the eye sight issue. dogs aren't blind by any means, but we humans as a rule have better eye sight than them AND we are taller so we can see the bike coming before they dog. which gives a few seconds to put a avoidance plan to work. even if you don't have stellar eye sight your self, you can with practice see the bikes first. trust me, with my dog who reacted to other dogs the way yours does to bikes, with practice I could tell if someone coming towards us was walking a dog just by the way they walked/held their body. even if I couldn't yet see the dog. bikes are MUCH easier to see.

The basic "tools" to help your dog are...

Avoid bikes. this is necessary to give your dog a break. the more a dog is exposed to the thing that scares them, the more easily they will "flip out". this is because of built up fear and stress. if your dog can get a break, they relax, stress hormones clear out out of their body and they are better able to deal with what scares them in a controlled and safe way.

Take more frequent walks, but for shorter periods.

Be a wall/shield for your dog. this is basically making sure you are between scary (in this case bikes) and your dog when they approach and pass you.

Auto watch. this is where you train your dog to turn and look at you when it see's scary, again in this case a bike. the goal isn't to cue your dog but for your dog to see a bike, then turn and focus on you.

Look at that. this is where you reward your dog for calmly looking at what scares them.

Because of the way you describe your dog reacting to bikes, that you have bikes everywhere, and your dog locks in visually on them, typical terrier response by the way. I would strongly recommend starting with the "auto watch" option combined with adjusting your walks to minimize "exposure" to them.

Ultimately you want your dog to be able to look at and watch bikes go by and be calm, but I don't think you will make much progress if you start with that option. Both "auto watch" and "look at that" will alter how your dog feels about bike in the long term, but "auto watch" gives your dog a tool to cope right now and you can almost never go wrong with encouraging your dog to focus on you.

Before you can transition to the "look at that" option your dog NEEDs to feel safe, and so you will need to really see those bikes coming and move to put your self between your dog and the bike. terriers don't make this easy as they WANT to face the threat and take it on head on, but your dog WILL clue that you are dealing with the bike for him and if he just stays behind you he is safe.

to start building the "auto watch", start in your living room. reward your dog for looking at you. you can either have this as eye contact or just looking at you in a general sense. it really doesn't matter. clicker training will make this a very quick and easy skill for your dog. Once your dog will turn and look at you on cue, such as "watch me" or just "watch", take it out side, start from basically the beginning and train him to turn and watch you when a person walks by, a car drives by, basically anything that doesn't bother him, but is a mild distraction. then do this with things that sort of bother him etc. once it's really solid, then and only then try it with bikes. maybe start with a stationary bike. then if you have a friend to help maybe have someone push a bike just a little for movement but don't ride etc. build it up so you can ask your dog to watch you will a bike goes by on the other side of you.

Once you have that "tool" in place and you see at least a 50% improvement in your dog, then and only then would I consider trying some "look at that" with bikes. when you to this point, build "look at that" also known as "LAT" the same way you did with "auto watch". Then when you got to actually use it with someone riding a bike, find a park somewhere that gives you LOTS of distance so your dog can feel safe while watching bikes go by.

Lastly, be sure to give your dog breaks from training to not be fearful of bikes. two or three days a week, make your goal to greatly minimize his "exposure" to bikes. if you have a really good day and he is handling bikes really good, even if it's only one or two bikes for example, end your session and go home. let him have a break. take the next day off. success can be stressful too and it's easy to get excited and want to push things when all is going right/well but that is when it's time to call it a day.

That is where I would start. please, please don't hesitate to ask questions. get clarification or if this doesn't seem to be working lets talk there is always something that can be adjusted or tried.
Thanks for the lengthy post. I have been working on '"watch me" for over two weeks and at home it works great, but not so great outside on the walks where it's really needed - probably because as soon as he sees a bike - there is no more training possible, he is no longer food motivated or interested or pays any attention to me, and that's 97% of the walks. I can spot the bicycles coming at us, I can't see the ones that are coming up behind us because I'd have to keep turning around all the time. I do turn around every so often, but the bicycles come from side streets also and I just can't see them all. I definitely can't see the ones that are on the street that we are just about to turn on to, and the ones that he can see from our front door when we go outside. The route I walk Atticus is side streets, and the open space behind the houses, where bicycles do go but not as much. I know, most people who are reading this probably can't imagine why someone would not be able to avoid bicycles, so let me explain. I live in a city that is ranked at #3 on the "10 best bicycle cities" in the US list. A huge chunk of the population in this town commutes on a bicycle, or rides them for fun. I live a mile away from two very popular areas for riding mountains bikes. The street I live off has a bicycle lane, and in order to get to any other side street we have to walk this street. 9 out 10 times, even though we only walk one block to the next side street (we live at a dead end cul-de-sac) we will see a bicycle. There is no hour of the day where there are no bicycles, although in the morning and after work there are more.

In this town there are many trails that don't allow bicycles, unfortunately those same ones don't allow dogs either. I have researched this for hours on the internet. Once a week we do drive a bit of distance away to hike mountain trails that allow dogs but no bicycles, but those are all far, we can't do them very often. Unfortunately we had a huge wild fire here last month, so most of the mountain trails that are closer are still closed.

So since he's moved in with me, everyday he has been having multiple negative experiences with bicycles. His previous owners didn't walk him very much, I think they just let him out to pee and back to the apartment. I live in a house so he does get his exercise by running around the back yard, but I like to walk him since he's not really good walking on a leash. Sounds like me taking him on all these walks everyday is actually hurting him :( We did a hike yesterday where no bicycles were allowed, and he freaked out when he saw a horse and rider on the trail. And since last week he has started to do this with joggers as well.

I guess I need to find some abandoned part of town, maybe an industrial complex after hours, or the mall way before it opens, just somewhere where we can can have a walk and not see bicycles, horses and joggers.
runlikethewind
Posts: 1166
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by runlikethewind »

My suggestion is to use Click the Trigger or Look at That. An autowatch is a bonus with this because the dog looks back at you for his reward anyway or some people deliver the treat off centre, so diverting his gaze. Just click him whenever he notices bikes, joggers, horse riders at distance, simple CTT and move away as well...and distance should also reduce like Jacksdad explains over time. If a bike, jogger or horse rider is passing, get to his safe distance and just feed him until the trigger had passed and then stop feedng. Theres no need for him to do any behaviour..just lookng at the trigger is fine. This way you are actually also counter conditioning him when he looks specifically at the bike and not simply trying to reinforce an alternative behaviour.

If you find this method is not working, although it should because its premise is simple classical conditioning, there is a other method called BAT. This can help a dog to switch off from stuff going on around him. Stage 1 of BAT is the same as Look at That anyway. A good video of stage 3 BAT in action for fear of an animate object is the horse who is afraid of a tarpaulin. I will try and find this later to post it. If you wanted to use BAT, it would be good to 'buy the book or get the DVDs' to help.
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by jacksdad »

Neither "look at that" (aka LAT) or "watch" (Aka autowatch) nor treats will work IF the trigger is too close AND you haven't built these tools up first.

You can't go from the living room to LAT or WATCH without first rebuilding it outside "against" things that don't scare him. If the thing that scares him is WAY too close, the worlds most enticing piece of steak or chicken or whatever won't work. he will be too focused on what is scaring him. when fear kicks in the body goes into fight or flight mode which involves hormones and other chemicals in the body and a couple of results is...loss of interest in food AND tunnel vision.

You also need to be aware of his safe distance. can a bike pass by at 5 feet or does he need 100 feet or even more. My dog reacts to other dogs like your dog reacts to bikes. there was a time that he could spot a dog well over 100 yards away, darn near 200 at one park. Let your dog guide you in this because only he will know what he needs. what you think is a safe distance and what he thinks could be very different.

The reason i suggested "watch" over "LAT" to start is you mention your have bikes everywhere and if you are walking down a street on the side walk and if you don't have anywhere to go to get distance odds are your going to be over threshold, meaning your dog is going to "zone" in and "flip out". "Watch" gives your dog a coping mechanism for dealing with these situations. It also gives you a tool if you see the bike coming before your dog to then give your dog something to do to prevent/reduce the chance of a "flip out". If your dog is looking at you as you both walk down the street earning super yummy treats he isn't looking at bikes and getting worked up.

LAT will work great IF you can always be at your dog's safe distance. Again using the walking down the street example with no way to get distance from a bike, asking your dog to look at it's fear trigger while over threshold is counter productive. LAT really does a wonderful job of helping a dog rebuild positives associations to the world around it that also happens to include their fear trigger. but asking your dog to watch its fear trigger while it's "flipping out" isn't going to "make a dent" in the problem. I can see that happening if you are walking down a typical city/town street. If you have a local park where you can work at your dogs safe distance, by all means use "LAT". But again, you need to build it up first. though in this situation LAT takes less prep work.

Dogs that "lock in" on their fear trigger like a heat seeking missile tend to do better starting with the "autowatch" (WATCH) method. Dogs that already do things to avoid "dealing" with their fear triggers tend to do better starting with "LAT". in a nut shell that is how you choose which to start with. using one "tool" exclusively will only get you so far. The nice thing about "LAT" And "autowatch" is there is a lot of overlap in them.

Teaching both to your dog gives you some options that using only one over the other doesn't. More tools you have to deal with a wider variety of situations, the better off you will be. And sometimes your dog has to make progress with one, before the other can be helpful. I know with my dog trying to start with LAT would have been a disaster. But today, it's our go to tool for his fear of humans. For his dog issue sometimes I use LAT, sometimes I use WATCH. it just depends on the situation.

BAT does do a great job of combining them both into a single "tool". Little bit oversimplified of an explanation.
WufWuf
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 7:53 am

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by WufWuf »

I too have a reactive dog and live in a really busy area. When she first came to live with me as an adult rescue she reacted to everything that wasn't obviously a human (so people with hats, bags, hoods, buggys, all animals, anything that might be an animal, movement etc). It has taken some time for me to get the hang of how to train with her but she's so much better now it's hard to remember how stressful things once were. I say this to give you hope that you will see progress even if it's slow. My girl can now see most things in the world without freaking out, she can also see a large number of dogs that she has gotten used to without any stress and dogs at distance are no problem at all (dogs being her number 1 fear). People often comment that she's more confident everytime they see her.

The biggest thing that worked for me living in such a busy place was to teach her what I call "are you ready" but you can call it what ever feels natural to you. I started in quiet places (like at home) and got Honey used to the idea that when I said "are you ready" I was going to throw something super tasty on the ground - NOT just hand it to her, so she'd get the chance to use her nose to find it. Terriers are very driven by excitement and it's far more exciting to have to find a piece of food then it is to just come and get it out of your hand.

I use this when I want to stop her attention getting locked onto something. If needs be you can rapid fire tiny tasty treats close together on the ground and the pay off for them is so good that they will focus on that instead of the scary object. I find this very useful as it has allowed me to get her stress levels down even though there were still scary things around. You will still need some space to make this work but I think it's a very useful tool and I still do this on most walks.

It's not a "fix" but it can be a step towards being able to use LAT or Watch me. When scary things are around my own dog finds it very stressful to be asked to do anything but the AYR game is interesting without the stress, she's much better now but can still find it too much if it's something very scary.

Make sure that the first time you play the "are you ready" game you use the most exciting reward you can find (even if it's not the ideal reward health wise, so very smelly yummy food that they are not normally allowed is perfect)

A big factor will also be how you feel while this is going on - I know with my dog if I feel concerned or frustrated, her reactions are much worse then if I can maintain a light hearted approch.
sucittanna wrote:This dog is a terrier and he is fearless,
Don't be fooled by the terrier act - they bluff and look fearless when they are scared - all high stance and excited movements - it's still fear. I hope you don't mind me saying this but in some of the lovely pictures you posted I felt that Atticus was not that comfortable. There's one pic of a large dog (shepard mix?) "playing" with Atticus, the play involves the large dog performing a predator trip on Atticus. I've been lucky enough to see a lot of dog-dog behaviour and play and I've seen this move many times, I can also tell you that I've never seen a dog be OK with this "play" move. It's scary and a huge rush of stress, different dogs deal with this stress in different ways. So I would suggest that even if Atticus gets on with this dog I would give them breaks from each other and limit their play so that (for the moment) Atticus is not being chased AT ALL.

It's very early days for you all and I think that you would really benefit from a break from daily walking. If you could do a week or two of entertainment at home (see this thread for ideas viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1135)and maybe a walk in the hiking trail you mentioned, before you tackle the "real" world, you will see a big difference in Atticus. Staying at home can be a great thing at this early stage, it will give you an oppertunity to really bond with Atticus and for him to learn that he can trust you and that you're pretty exciting too!
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules
sucittanna
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:03 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by sucittanna »

WufWuf wrote:I too have a reactive dog and live in a really busy area. When she first came to live with me as an adult rescue she reacted to everything that wasn't obviously a human (so people with hats, bags, hoods, buggys, all animals, anything that might be an animal, movement etc). It has taken some time for me to get the hang of how to train with her but she's so much better now it's hard to remember how stressful things once were. I say this to give you hope that you will see progress even if it's slow. My girl can now see most things in the world without freaking out, she can also see a large number of dogs that she has gotten used to without any stress and dogs at distance are no problem at all (dogs being her number 1 fear). People often comment that she's more confident everytime they see her.

The biggest thing that worked for me living in such a busy place was to teach her what I call "are you ready" but you can call it what ever feels natural to you. I started in quiet places (like at home) and got Honey used to the idea that when I said "are you ready" I was going to throw something super tasty on the ground - NOT just hand it to her, so she'd get the chance to use her nose to find it. Terriers are very driven by excitement and it's far more exciting to have to find a piece of food then it is to just come and get it out of your hand.

I use this when I want to stop her attention getting locked onto something. If needs be you can rapid fire tiny tasty treats close together on the ground and the pay off for them is so good that they will focus on that instead of the scary object. I find this very useful as it has allowed me to get her stress levels down even though there were still scary things around. You will still need some space to make this work but I think it's a very useful tool and I still do this on most walks.

It's not a "fix" but it can be a step towards being able to use LAT or Watch me. When scary things are around my own dog finds it very stressful to be asked to do anything but the AYR game is interesting without the stress, she's much better now but can still find it too much if it's something very scary.

Make sure that the first time you play the "are you ready" game you use the most exciting reward you can find (even if it's not the ideal reward health wise, so very smelly yummy food that they are not normally allowed is perfect)

A big factor will also be how you feel while this is going on - I know with my dog if I feel concerned or frustrated, her reactions are much worse then if I can maintain a light hearted approch.
sucittanna wrote:This dog is a terrier and he is fearless,
Don't be fooled by the terrier act - they bluff and look fearless when they are scared - all high stance and excited movements - it's still fear. I hope you don't mind me saying this but in some of the lovely pictures you posted I felt that Atticus was not that comfortable. There's one pic of a large dog (shepard mix?) "playing" with Atticus, the play involves the large dog performing a predator trip on Atticus. I've been lucky enough to see a lot of dog-dog behaviour and play and I've seen this move many times, I can also tell you that I've never seen a dog be OK with this "play" move. It's scary and a huge rush of stress, different dogs deal with this stress in different ways. So I would suggest that even if Atticus gets on with this dog I would give them breaks from each other and limit their play so that (for the moment) Atticus is not being chased AT ALL.

It's very early days for you all and I think that you would really benefit from a break from daily walking. If you could do a week or two of entertainment at home (see this thread for ideas viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1135)and maybe a walk in the hiking trail you mentioned, before you tackle the "real" world, you will see a big difference in Atticus. Staying at home can be a great thing at this early stage, it will give you an oppertunity to really bond with Atticus and for him to learn that he can trust you and that you're pretty exciting too!
Great idea. I'm going to have to try the "are you ready" I think he will like that.

Those pictures with the two shepherd mixes, those were taken in the first two hours when Atticus arrived at his new home. The smaller of the two is the alpha female, and she can be pretty bossy. The first few hours Atticus was figuring out the pecking order. Atticus came from a house where he lived with two adult Australian shepherds, but I think they were older than my roommates dogs, and very sedate. My roommates dogs are both 2.5 years old right and sometimes tend to play rough. I had Atticus meet my roommates dogs at a dog park and they played for about an hour. I didn't want to bring him to a strange house with strange dogs without having seen them all interact. The first few days there was lots of chasing, but things have calmed down. Atticus gets along with both dogs but actually prefers the larger German Shepherd / Chow. Because I don't want Atticus to bond with the two dogs, I want him to bond to me, he only spends about 8 hours hours with them, and the rest of the day with me.
Last edited by sucittanna on Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sucittanna
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:03 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by sucittanna »

jacksdad wrote:Neither "look at that" (aka LAT) or "watch" (Aka autowatch) nor treats will work IF the trigger is too close AND you haven't built these tools up first.

You can't go from the living room to LAT or WATCH without first rebuilding it outside "against" things that don't scare him. If the thing that scares him is WAY too close, the worlds most enticing piece of steak or chicken or whatever won't work. he will be too focused on what is scaring him. when fear kicks in the body goes into fight or flight mode which involves hormones and other chemicals in the body and a couple of results is...loss of interest in food AND tunnel vision.

You also need to be aware of his safe distance. can a bike pass by at 5 feet or does he need 100 feet or even more. My dog reacts to other dogs like your dog reacts to bikes. there was a time that he could spot a dog well over 100 yards away, darn near 200 at one park. Let your dog guide you in this because only he will know what he needs. what you think is a safe distance and what he thinks could be very different.

The reason i suggested "watch" over "LAT" to start is you mention your have bikes everywhere and if you are walking down a street on the side walk and if you don't have anywhere to go to get distance odds are your going to be over threshold, meaning your dog is going to "zone" in and "flip out". "Watch" gives your dog a coping mechanism for dealing with these situations. It also gives you a tool if you see the bike coming before your dog to then give your dog something to do to prevent/reduce the chance of a "flip out". If your dog is looking at you as you both walk down the street earning super yummy treats he isn't looking at bikes and getting worked up.

LAT will work great IF you can always be at your dog's safe distance. Again using the walking down the street example with no way to get distance from a bike, asking your dog to look at it's fear trigger while over threshold is counter productive. LAT really does a wonderful job of helping a dog rebuild positives associations to the world around it that also happens to include their fear trigger. but asking your dog to watch its fear trigger while it's "flipping out" isn't going to "make a dent" in the problem. I can see that happening if you are walking down a typical city/town street. If you have a local park where you can work at your dogs safe distance, by all means use "LAT". But again, you need to build it up first. though in this situation LAT takes less prep work.

Dogs that "lock in" on their fear trigger like a heat seeking missile tend to do better starting with the "autowatch" (WATCH) method. Dogs that already do things to avoid "dealing" with their fear triggers tend to do better starting with "LAT". in a nut shell that is how you choose which to start with. using one "tool" exclusively will only get you so far. The nice thing about "LAT" And "autowatch" is there is a lot of overlap in them.

Teaching both to your dog gives you some options that using only one over the other doesn't. More tools you have to deal with a wider variety of situations, the better off you will be. And sometimes your dog has to make progress with one, before the other can be helpful. I know with my dog trying to start with LAT would have been a disaster. But today, it's our go to tool for his fear of humans. For his dog issue sometimes I use LAT, sometimes I use WATCH. it just depends on the situation.

BAT does do a great job of combining them both into a single "tool". Little bit oversimplified of an explanation.
I can't imagine using LAT right now. I've used "watch me" successfully a few times already, when I was lucky to see the bicycle before he saw it, and the bicycle was far enough away. I don't think "watch me" would work if the bicycle was to pass us on the street though. As for the safe distance... I don't know if that actually exists. There is the "freak out" distance, that's anywhere from the bicycle passing us on the street to the bicycle being a few blocks away. Then there is the distance where he's totally fixated on the bicycle, but the bike is really far away so he just watches it without freaking out. Even in this fixated mode, he will not take treats. So to have him watch me right now seems like the only option.
sucittanna
Posts: 38
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Location: Colorado

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by sucittanna »

So there is something I've noticed. A few days ago we went hiking and there were a few horses at the trail head and Atticus was looking at them intensely, so I walked him over to one of the horses, Atticus got really close to it, looked at it for about 30 seconds and then started to flip out. Later on, on the trail a horse was passing us and he flipped out then too. Yesterday we went hiking and two people were hiking with 4 alpacas. As Atticus approached them he just looked at them calmly with curiosity. We all stopped when we got to each other and one of the alpacas lowered its head to sniff Atticus and Atticus sniffed it when it got low enough for him to reach it, and then about 30 seconds later Atticus flipped out. Also, yesterday on the trail we only encountered a group of 6, then a group of 5 with a dog, a group of 4 with a dog and then two ladies, and then lastly two people with the 4 alpacas. He cried when all those people were approaching us on the trail getting ready to pass us, except for the two with the alpacas, with those he cried after he sniffed the alpaca. So this whole avoiding bicycles stuff is for nothing, seems like he has found other things to flip out over.

There has been many times that we have passed people/dogs on trail or sidewalk, and Atticus doesn't cry at all.

So to figure this out since it made no sense to me, I started to notice patterns and I've noticed something that actually explains why sometimes he reacts and sometimes he doesn't. Atticus usually cries and flips out at people, or people with dogs, when those people want nothing to do with him. If people are passing us on the sidewalk or trail and as we get closer to them and they start saying "look at this cute puppy" or "can I pet your dog" and stop to chat, Atticus is very friendly. If people are passing us and make no attempt to stop because they are not dog people, or have a dog with them and they don't want for the two dogs to meet, then he freaks out on them. That pretty much sums up all the human, or human/dog encounters. Does he find people that don't want to meet him threatening? Or he just gets mad that they don't want to stop and pet him? That is so strange.

As for the bicycles, horses and alpacas, those are in a different category since the horse guy at the trail head did pet Atticus and so did the lady with the alpacas.
jacksdad
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Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by jacksdad »

ok first, safe distance. the "safe" distance is the distance he needs to be from bikes going by to not freak out. if there doesn't seem to be one then really, really try and avoid going places where he will see bikes going by for about a week, longer if possible say two weeks, but a week maybe good enough. this will give him a break and let him calm down a bit. until I did this, there didn't seem to be a safe distance for my dog in relation to other dogs. once I went a week doing my best to keep him from seeing/encountering other dogs, suddenly we could work with the distances available to us in parks and walking down the street.

"watch me" and bikes. Technically the steps are see bike, turn and look at you. However, if even that seems too much, cue him to turn and look at you before he sees the bike and be like a slot machine on a jack pot handing him one treat at a time as fast as you can as the bike passes you. This will NOT eliminate the need to work with in his threshold. you will still need to keep something close to his safe distance. while doing this...keep walking in a direction that gives you distance from the bike. This will help him even if he didn't first look at the bike. dogs have other sense such as hearing and smell that are actually more acute than vision, so he will KNOW the bike is around even if he didn't first look at it.

This will teach him a alternate behavior and a coping skill, look at you when scary happens and good things happen. Can't go wrong with that. I would also be sure to keep your self between him and whatever he thinks is scary. being a terrier this will be a challenge, but it will make a difference.

When he fixates/locks in on a bike, you missed your window to do anything. It is best to just move him for distance and change the subject, "lets run this way" followed by, "hey check out this bush" or something like that.

I had to start this way with my dog. First avoid dogs all together as much as I could possibly dog for about a week. I had to do watch me before he saw the other dog, then it progressed to him first seeing the dog then looking at me, then we progressed to LAT. he is also a terrier mix and his reaction was also a lock in like a laser on other dogs. sometimes dogs will need to start with one "tool" and make some progress before then can use another "tool" that will take them to the "next step".

As for your dog's reaction to horses and alpacas. It is important to remember you have only had him about 1 month AND he is still basically a puppy. It can take a few months for a dog to settle into their new home and really relax enough to revel their entire/true self. So be patient and don't panic if he shows reactions to things he didn't before. As a "puppy" he still has some phase to go through. one of which is a final fear stage and he is about the right age. this is where he will react fearful to more things than "normal". So how you handle new situations, new people/dogs/horses etc will be important in making those last "puppy" impressions that will influence his view of the world. The goal to make them as safe and positive as possible.

some of his reactions to things other than bikes can be due to stress verse actually being fearful of them. he may not really be afraid of them (yet) but because he is stressed and still "worked" up over bikes he may not have "anything left" to be able to calmly assess and checkout something new. How you help him with these new things will influence if he adds them to the "fear" column or the non fear column so to speak. Because he has a fearful tendency, you will need to be slow and deliberate and VERY careful about how you "introduce" him to things like horses and alpacas. This is where Look At That could be a good starting place for him. don't let him go up to the new animals, but just stand a VERY safe distance away and let him earn some VERY yummy treats for looking at something new and "checking it out". It is this type situation why I no longer advocate a single tool. each dog is different, different situations call for different tools. having your dog know more than one "tool" will make it easier to help your dog.

I also experienced a similar situation with my dog. For a while there it felt like my dog was reactive to EVERYTHING, but that wasn't the case. It was just him being over stressed from his dog and people fears and he needed me to manage his "exposure" dogs/people, and help him have down time away from these things. once I did that, all the other "fears" disappeared and we were left with the real ones. Dogs and People.

Ok, lastly. Your dog and people. It is entirely possible he isn't fearful of people while being fearful of bikes and possibly horses. even if the reaction is similar. Fear is just one reason a dog barks, lunges, etc on leash at something. sometimes it's because they get SOOOOO excited about something they really like/love and are prevented from getting to that thing by the leash. so they become frustrated, frustration turns to the barking, lunging and other wise flipping out.

The solution is very similar to fear. you use a lot of the same basics, but in this case you teach your dog that calm gets what they want. so, IF you are 100% sure he LOVES people, you will teach him that calm gets him a chance to greet other people. you might even consider teaching him to sit to get attention from people or something else. Basically anything other than an over excited dog bounding over, dragging you and jumping on people. that won't make you any friends. I do want to emphasize "chance to greet other people". It is ok and won't be harmful to also teach him that sometimes you don't get to greet other people. Not everyone is receptive to a dog coming up to them. So its a combination of teaching impulse control, calm gets you a chance to go up to humans, and that it's ok to just look (another place LAT could be useful) at them and move on.
sucittanna
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:03 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by sucittanna »

jacksdad - very excellent information. Thank you. A few days ago I took Atticus camping in the forest on a weekday, when it's less busy. We did some dispersed camping, and we were pretty much alone. We only encountered a few people on the hiking trails and no bicycles. He didn't freak out the whole camping trip.

Since we did a lot of hiking during the camping trip, once we got back I gave Atticus a couple of days off from walks and to catch up on sleep. He didn't sleep much when camping, too much new stuff to take in. Yesterday was our first walk around the neighborhood since the camping trip and 5 consecutive days since he's flipped out over a bicycle and when doing our neighborhood walk yesterday, he saw a couple of bicycles from a distance (riding the bicycle lane on the main road), but I had him 'watch me' before he noticed them and once we he noticed the bikes we walked the other direction right away with tons of 'watch me' and treats and even though he still continued to turn around to try and get a glimpse of the bikes he didn't react to them. I feel like this is a good fresh starting point.

The thing about the barking at people. I talked to my obedience class instructor and she basically told me what I suspected. Atticus likes to get attention from people. So If we pass someone on the side walk or trail that pays no attention to him, he barks to get their attention. Even though it's a similar cry to the bicycle cry, it's shorter in duration with less fuss, and he doesn't shake while he's crying, so he is not afraid of people. He's basically saying "what's wrong with you, don't you want to pet me?" :lol: When he encounters people that want to either pet him or just stop to talk to me, he's a very friendly dog and doesn't bark at all. My instructor's solution to this was to give Atticus lots of talking to in an exciting tone of voice and make a big fuss with lots of attention just before we are about to pass people, so that he doesn't feel that he needs to get attention from strangers. I haven't needed to implement this yet since during our camping trip, everyone we passed on the trail stopped to talk to me and pet him. I was just wondering if this was the only way to deal with this kind of situation?
jacksdad
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Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by jacksdad »

sounds like you are off to a good start.

So, just in case anyone asks what your doing. What I have suggested as your initial starting place is stress management and breaking a behavior pattern. soon as you see some progress it will be time to switch to a more precise counter conditioning. When I say progress it's not just a day or two where things went good. Rather if you using a scale of 1 being perfect and 10 being horrible, were to rate how things were when you asked for help and that rating was a 10 for example, then when you can rate things as a 5 or 6, that is the progress we are looking for before switching things up.

Only change you will need to make in order to "shift" to counter conditioning would be to wait to ask for a "watch me" until he indicates he knows the bike is around. then ask for the watch me, and get distance. verse right now you see the bike first, get his attention on you, and go for distance to prevent any reaction by knowing the bike is around.

for it to be counter conditioning, the technical way of saying change his association with bikes, he will need to know the bike is there first, generally by seeing it, then get the treat. scary predicts good things.

Right now, you aren't even going for that. you are going for reduction of stress and breaking the cycle of see bike and flip out.
runlikethewind
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Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by runlikethewind »

If you want to use cued Watch mes, be mindful that they do not predict the bike.
sucittanna
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:03 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: My dog is scared of bicycles, freaks out and cries very loud

Post by sucittanna »

I think I'm changing my mind. I don't think my dog is scared of bicycles, I think he's annoyed by them, maybe because he can't get at them. I still don't know why he doesn't bark at bicycles like the way he barks at squirrels when he chases them in the yard, which is a bark - instead, when he sees bicycles, it's more a high pitched cry, not a bark at all.

Since I've had this dog, now just over two months, I've been teaching him to bark less while chasing squirrels in the yard. He's gotten a lot better, but sometimes these squirrels are just taunting him so bad, that he starts to bark more. When that happens, I pick him up and take him inside, and close the screen door. And then he does the bicycle cry :?: because he can no longer get at the squirrels. And why doesn't he cry at scooters, motorcycles or skateboarders, they are moving also? Could it be that he got run over by a bicycle when he was younger, and thinks of them as a threat - and since he's a terrier, instead of being scared of them and avoiding them, he wants to hunt them all down when he sees them, but I'm preventing this by having him on a leash?

Recently I discovered that my dog likes to run :lol: I don't like running or jogging at all but because he seems to love it so much and since I can't have him off the leash in the local park, once per each walk I will run with him for a little bit. (BTW, he won't run at the dog park with other dogs and he's not very interested in chasing balls either). When seeing a bicycle on a walk last week, he started to cry like he usually does - not sure what made me do it, but I started to run and immediately he stopped crying. I thought it was a fluke, so I tested this out a few more times. We ran with the bicycle, away from the bicycle... when the bicycle was passing us on the street and when it was far away, each time he stopped crying. Unfortunately I can't run very far, but each time I finally stopped running he still made a fuss but nothing like the crying he does when we see a bicycle and I don't run with him. Is it because he can't run and cry at the same time, or does running in any direction distract him from the bicycle or does he cry because he wants to run when he sees a bicycle?

Since he totally stopped obeying most commands on our walks (see my other thread "Completed obedience class, but now won't obey commands" viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15299 ) the running is now how I'm trying to deal with the crying and the bicycles, even though it looks very strange to anyone watching us.
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