devil dog

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bailey22513
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Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 am

devil dog

Post by bailey22513 » Thu May 15, 2008 9:11 am

So my best friend's family got a dog for valentines day. Apparently it's a catahoula leopard hound. "not for the inexperienced dog owner."

Well, this dog is the devil's dog. I swear it. I am terrified to go into my friend's house now because they don't bother to train it. My friend is the only one who's working to help train it. (by the way, there are 7 kids and 2 parents and traffic going in and out of the house all day).

Here's SOME of the bad behaviors that they have trouble with:
-Open the front door: the dog is out of sight (outside) before you can say "NO!"
-Dog is tall enough to get onto the counters and get into anything left out. (keep in mind, she's only a couple months old) If you try to take away the food she got you can say goodbye to your face and hello to the hospital.
-It poos and pees EVERYWHERE. (not so much anymore since they let the dog go in and out as it wills [fenced backyard]. )
-The carpeted floors are shredded because nobody is ever upstairs to pay attention to it
-the dog chews. and chews. and chews. and chews. AND CHEWS.


It's as much the fault of the owners (and all the kids) as the dog. (more the owners).
-They never pay attention to her except bad attention (shock collar, newspaper, etc.)
-The dog is always left upstairs alone with access into a cramped backyard with little to no room to run
-Within the first week of having the dog (this is the whole family's first experience of having a dog) they gave up training it.



So I want to know how to convince them to get an in-home trainer for the dog. (they live very close to CJ's Dog Training in Washington State who does in-home dog training). If I can't get them to do that, I practically live at CJ's, how do i help the 9 of them get into training the dog? (they're very close to giving up and PUTTING IT DOWN!!!).

If I end up training the family (haha.. it's true, you know it) What are some tips for the mentioned negatives? Please help! They don't need to put down a dog that CAN be trained!!!

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emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth » Thu May 15, 2008 12:00 pm

Well done to you for attempting to help sort this out, though I fear you are on a hiding to nothing here.

Firstly, NONE of this is the dogs fault AT ALL. Not one bit of it. As the saying goes, you reap what you sow, and in this case the owners have put in nothing good, so are getting back, nothing good.

Firstly - a fence or door system that prevents the dog bolting straight out of the front door when someone comes in.
Fit spring close hinges so doors automatically close, gates to yards with spring hinges and self latching catches - limits the opportunity for leaving such things open.

Collar on the dog at all times, with an ID tag. Maximises the chances of catching the dog, and of it being identified if it escapes.

Stop food stealing by putting food away. Otherwise accept that food will be lost and bawl out the person who left it there, NOT the dog.

You can attach a short 'handle' (length of webbing or leather or whatever) to the collar so you can remove the dog from somewhere she ought not be without getting into biting range.

The owners need to understand they went out and got themselves a working breed dog, keeping it in the house with no training and no exercise, well they might as well have picked her up from the breeder and taken her straight out back and shot her.

PUppies bite. ALL puppies do it until taught kindly that it doesnt get them anywhere good, ie ALL fun and games stop when teeth touch skin. (No shouting, smacking, kicking, just end the game, fold arms, look away from the dog in silence. Fun stops. Anything unpleasant will be regarded as a game until such time as the dog is actually seriously scared or physically hurt - then she will learn not to trust her humans at all. Short step away from the vets needle there.).

She wont know where to toilet until someone teaches her. Teach her by TAKING her outside (on a lead if there is no fence), and waiting with her, and rewarding her very well when she goes.
This may well mean taking her out every half an hour, as well as after meals, drinks, sleep, games, training.

ANY other method of housetraining will have poor side effects such as eating faeces, hiding faeces, submissive or fearful urination, refusing to urinate in front of poeple (thus making it harder to teach her to go outside), can even cause or exacerbate seperation anxiety.

Punishing her for what you dont want her to do, ie shock collars, long term will stop her learning what you DO want her to do, and can have lots of other rather nasty side effects. Think about how youd like to learn a new lesson. Have it explained and be shown how and what to do, and rewarded for each stage you get right?
Have nothing explained, and just punished every time you get it wrong.

ALL puppies chew - shutting an energetic young pup upstairs alone is almost guaranteed to result in a miserable, wound up pup AND a shredded house.

She should be with the family, most of the time. Otherwise where is the point in having a dog? Get them a pet rock.

Given the right exercise and training (theres a stickied thread in here about clicker training, its fantastic), plenty of suitable chewy toys, plenty of attention and guidance, and when adult plenty of WORK, she could well turn out to be a fantastic dog.

Left the way she is she will be a liability, probably run in the road and cause a traffic accident (and id be stunned into silence if that didnt bring law suits raining down upon the owners heads), potentially killing herself AND innocent humans...
She will lead a miserable life being constantly punished for things she has little to no control over, probably wind up aggressive, and then shortly after, wind up dead.

If they are NOT interested in putting in the work then I suggest you take this poor dog to the nearest shelter, and if they are full, take her and have her put down. And then buy them a pet rock.

If i sound angry, it is because i AM. People who get dogs on a whim and then cannot be bothered to put in the work required cause dogs to become statistics on the 'dogs are dangerous' lists all over the world, cause shelters to be overflowing with problem dogs that need a huuuuuuge amount of work doing with them, and cause dogs to end up dead.

None of this is the fault of the poor dog - all of it is the fault of the selfish 'I want it so I'll have it RIGHT NOW' owner.

(I realise you are doing your best, do feel free to print that out and give it to them).

bailey22513
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Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 8:48 am

Post by bailey22513 » Thu May 15, 2008 2:44 pm

the dog has a collar. and a harness. and a gentle leader. and a muzzle. and just about everything else a dog could have. (micro chipped). the thing is, the dog takes the collar, harness, etc OFF. Chews through it, slips it over her head, etc.

I Think the biggest thing is that the family WANTS to train the dog. it's just that nobody wants to put in the effort. and they ALL have to put in the effort.

And please excuse me for suggesting the dog is at fault. I was writing with over 24 hours of no sleep and my new puppy wanting attention. (she's a sweetie =] )

As for the biting: She bites. whether you're playing with her or not. If you're not giving her attention (IE watching tv or doing homework) she'll come up to you and sit in front of you. if you continue to not give her attention she'll start biting until they chase her around the house, scream at her, shock her..... yeah. It's like a toddler... they don't understand that the dog needs CONSTANT attention. It can't just be locked upstairs. (gotta go, more later)

Me and my dogs
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Post by Me and my dogs » Thu May 15, 2008 3:38 pm

I wonder how badly those people WANT the dog.

Sounds like they got a gift during another gifting holiday and now they are tired of the gift.

Well trained dogs take effort and if they've given up on it I doubt they will put any effort in the training. While I can't stand hearing that people have resorted to a shock collar anyway - it's just a toy for people who don't want to put in effort and think they've purchased a remote control, push button, fix - please caution them on the dangers and new troublesome behaviors that can pop up w/ the use of shock collars!

Sadly, working to "convince" some people to TRAIN their dog is kind of like getting an alcholic to quit drinking. The person with the problem has to recognize it and do it willingly to make any progress.

You can advise them that their "Do Nothing" approach will end up with them having a dangerous dog. It will then be their responsibility when they eventually give it up, possibly to a local shelter, and the dog will be euthanized for being unadoptable and completely unable to pass a behavior evaluation. They have the power to change the outcome now - or be another contributor to the problem. Ask them which path will they choose.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. Since I also work at a shelter do not think for one minute that I haven't put it that plainly to people to help them to understand the depth of the problem - and to make sure they fully understand that THEY are the human(s) that have created this outcome - not the dog. It rests fully on their shoulders.

Where did they get the dog from? Is it a responsible breeder that will take the dog back? (though I'm guessing not)

Perhaps they'd like to look into Catahoula Rescue?
The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience. ~Eleanore Roosevelt

bailey22513
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Post by bailey22513 » Thu May 15, 2008 10:44 pm

Yes, they did got the dog from someone, I think it was an accidental litter. The shock collar no longer works, the dog chewed it off and into bits. They don't want to give up the dog. I've lectured them (one by one, you can never get them all in the same room at once) and told them that if they want to keep the dog, they ALL have to pitch in.

I overheard a conversation my friend's parents had today... They want to get rid of the hound and get ANOTHER dog. Like that's gonna fix the problem. They're not getting the fact that getting another dog is NOT going to change anything. ARGH! I want to scream at them and get it through their thick skulls! So I'm going over tomorrow. What can I say to get them to realize that just getting another dog and doing the same things they did before are going to produce the same outcomes? T_T the poor dog.... I've helped train the un-trainable dog my neighbor got then never trained. Between the two of us, we got the dog trained. (it was a Doberman. Very sweet dog now =] ) I have a plan to get the 9 of them settled down and listening, all I have to do is give a short lecture about dogs/training/the aforementioned problems.

Me and my dogs
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Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 12:40 pm
Location: California

Post by Me and my dogs » Fri May 16, 2008 12:06 am

bailey22513 wrote:Yes, they did got the dog from someone, I think it was an accidental litter. The shock collar no longer works, the dog chewed it off and into bits. They don't want to give up the dog. I've lectured them (one by one, you can never get them all in the same room at once) and told them that if they want to keep the dog, they ALL have to pitch in.

I overheard a conversation my friend's parents had today... They want to get rid of the hound and get ANOTHER dog. Like that's gonna fix the problem. They're not getting the fact that getting another dog is NOT going to change anything. ARGH! I want to scream at them and get it through their thick skulls! So I'm going over tomorrow. What can I say to get them to realize that just getting another dog and doing the same things they did before are going to produce the same outcomes? T_T the poor dog.... I've helped train the un-trainable dog my neighbor got then never trained. Between the two of us, we got the dog trained. (it was a Doberman. Very sweet dog now =] ) I have a plan to get the 9 of them settled down and listening, all I have to do is give a short lecture about dogs/training/the aforementioned problems.

If you are going to speak to ALL of them at the same time then stick with that plan.

If you get there and you only have one or two listening then leave - and remind them the deal was you were going to be there to speak to ALL of them. Kind of like dog training for people - don't reward them with your time when they aren't sticking to their end of the bargain. The deal was you would be speaking with all of them - not continuing w/ their half-arsed approach and lack of commitment.

What should you say?

I'm sticking w/ the approach from before:

You can advise them that their "Do Nothing" approach will end up with them having a dangerous dog. It will then be their responsibility when they eventually give it up, possibly to a local shelter, and the dog will be euthanized for being unadoptable and completely unable to pass a behavior evaluation. They have the power to change the outcome now - or be another contributor to the problem. Ask them which path will they choose.

Only this time you get to ADD that by getting another dog they will be contributing TWO dogs to the numbers that are euthanized each year.

Remind them that dogs don't come trained and, if I read the first post correctly and they got the dog just 3 months ago, they haven't shown any commitment to training as the all over the place tools they purchase and give up on (good thing the dog chewed a shock collar off).

Training requires commitment and consistancy. If they got another dog ( :roll: ) what do they plan on doing different? They haven't even given this dog a chance!

Oh... and btw... looking at this quote again:
The shock collar no longer works, the dog chewed it off and into bits.
What exactly did they think the shock collar was going to teach the dog?

Maybe you could print these articles out for them to refer to:

http://www.animalfriends.org.uk/shock_c ... truth.html

http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/dog_library/choke.pdf

http://4pawsu.com/shockcollar.htm

http://www.iaabc.org/articles/Ecollar_I ... ng2007.pdf

Clearly it's the people who need the training (and perhaps spaying and neutering)
The purpose of life is to live it, to taste experience to the utmost, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience. ~Eleanore Roosevelt

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emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth » Fri May 16, 2008 10:37 am

Can you find someone who works at a shelter.

Get at least the adults involved here, down to that shelter and get a shelter worker to point out several dogs who are there BECAUSE their owners couldnt be bothered to train them.

Have the shelter worker explain that these dogs are likely to be put down because they are now adult dogs and have learned ingrained bad habits that will take a ton of work to put right, and no one wants to do that.

That MIGHT shock them into realising what they are doing.

Can you take their dog away for a few hours and clicker train it to do just ONE 'cool' trick.. (train it outside and then train it in their living room.

Then show them that their dog IS perfectly capable of learning, IF someone will teach her, that the missing element in her life is THEIR input and not her lack of intelligence?

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