dog doesn't come
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K9_girl1994
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:03 am
dog doesn't come
I have three small dogs. A peek-a-poo named Dude is turning 5 in May and a maltese/bichon frise is turning about 4 in May. I also have a 4 month old puppy Papillon. I cant let any of my dogs of a leash(except the puppy) because they will run straight to the road and will come home a couple of hours. I try using all of the techiques Victoria Stilwell uses but they still wont come back. I will run away making load noises, lay down on the ground and do everything. Dude the peek-a-poo is very smart and will just look at me and run the opposite direction. Goffy the maltese mix thinks of Dude as the leader and will chase and follow Dude. The puppy knows come because of Victoria's techniques but likes to play cahse with the other dogs and will follow them not listening to any of my calls. Also to make things worse my town does not have a local dog park anywhere or a fenced in field. i fel bad for them because they cant roam free because I am afraid they will get hit by a car. Please help!!!!!!!
hi,
I've got a similar problem with one of my Yorkies and am quite unhappy that I can't let her off leash. The baby is good at coming and following me, but my girl won't come unless it was her plan anyway. I got her when she was half a year old and obviously she didn't have a lot of contact with people by then.
Same as you said: Funny noises, crouching on the floor, running away from her... nothing works.
What I am doing now is: I let her watch me put some treaties in my pocket and go outside in the garden. I thought of a new word for coming and a new gesture/movement. Then I call her and most of the time she will come. As she is eager to do all the other things I taught her I have her sit or lie down and wait while I walk away. When I call her, she really RUNS towards me and has her treat.
My next step is to try that in other places - some that she doesn't know yet.
The difference to all the earlier tries is the first bit - letting her watch me taking the treats.
Don't give up!
I've got a similar problem with one of my Yorkies and am quite unhappy that I can't let her off leash. The baby is good at coming and following me, but my girl won't come unless it was her plan anyway. I got her when she was half a year old and obviously she didn't have a lot of contact with people by then.
Same as you said: Funny noises, crouching on the floor, running away from her... nothing works.
What I am doing now is: I let her watch me put some treaties in my pocket and go outside in the garden. I thought of a new word for coming and a new gesture/movement. Then I call her and most of the time she will come. As she is eager to do all the other things I taught her I have her sit or lie down and wait while I walk away. When I call her, she really RUNS towards me and has her treat.
My next step is to try that in other places - some that she doesn't know yet.
The difference to all the earlier tries is the first bit - letting her watch me taking the treats.
Don't give up!
You can only train one dog at a time. Trying to train a pack of dogs together is a recipe for failure.
You need to find a safe area - it isn't possible to train recall on the road or where there are distractions. Are there any training classes held that you can get to?
Recall is a big subject to train and it would take too long to post here, but a dog trainer will be able to help you. It's simple enough but there is a lot to it.
You need to find a safe area - it isn't possible to train recall on the road or where there are distractions. Are there any training classes held that you can get to?
Recall is a big subject to train and it would take too long to post here, but a dog trainer will be able to help you. It's simple enough but there is a lot to it.
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K9_girl1994
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:03 am
thanks
thanks for your replies but Dude who is pretty much the leader of the dogs(he thinks) is very picky about treats. What treats would you recommend? Also I dont have any local traing classes by me and they are to much money for me since I am 13 and dont have a job. I will try training them seperately but it is hard because Dude and Goofy will bark and whine at the door if they know the other one is no with them. Thanks a lot!
Hi,
About the treats - I give mine Frolic (not sure you get them in the UK). Basically anything he likes - try chicken for example, small pieces of sausages, ham, cheese (I couldn't believe it either...)
If the other(s) bark at the door you should train the the other one somewhere else, where he can't hear them.
Also try walking them individually for stronger bonding.
Good luck!
About the treats - I give mine Frolic (not sure you get them in the UK). Basically anything he likes - try chicken for example, small pieces of sausages, ham, cheese (I couldn't believe it either...)
If the other(s) bark at the door you should train the the other one somewhere else, where he can't hear them.
Also try walking them individually for stronger bonding.
Good luck!
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Maddie'sMom
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 1:49 pm
Training a reliable recall isn't something that happens in just a short time. It's a day to day process that needs continued attention for a very long time. It is one of the most difficult tasks to get reliable because there are so many more interesting things in the environment that the dog would rather do. You must be able to be the most interesting thing there is for your dog. You must set the dog and his environment up so that failure is unlikely. You can't train while he's in the midst of something fascinating and fun going on elsewhere or naturally, he'll be investigating that. That he doesn't come to you when you call isn't on account of his being stubborn or defiant. It's because you haven't built up a big enough bank account of reinforcement for the recall.
There are some things to be aware of that people do inadvertantly which sabotage the development of a good recall. One thing is they call their dog to come and end all the fun he was just having. They call him to come and do something he doesn't like, like clip nails or give a bath. He's having a wee of a time chasing squirrels in the yard and he is called to come inside where all the fun stops. This is all punishment for coming when called.
Another thing people do is use their cue word, like, "come," before the dog has made an association with that word and the act of coming. He may be running the other way and the owner yells "come, come, come!!!" So, what happens is that the word, "come" becomes associated with running the other way, not coming to the ower. The cue then, becomes useless for it's intended purpose.
Often times people call their dog and he comes along but they do nothing. Wanted behavior often gets an extremely low rate of reinforcement. If you want a dog to repeat a behavior, you must reinforce with something he LOVES and you must do it every time until he is quite reliable. Then you can put it on a variable reinforement schedule.
Anytime the dog comes to you on his own accord, have some treats or a tug toy ready for him immediately. Try enticing him to come WITHOUT using a cue word....use fun, squeeky noises, run the other way, squeek a favorite toy only used for this purpose and when he gets to you, take hold of his collar and feed him a high value treat. (chicken, liver treats, hot dog, cheese) Make a huge fuss over him and (important) let him go back to what he was doing. If you're at a dog park and he's having all kinds of fun, get him to come, snap on the leash and give him a cookie. Then take off the leash and let him go back to having fun for a few more minutes. Do this a few times, then when you must go, get him, give him another cookie, lots of praise and leave. This way he learns that coming does not equal the end of the world.
Use a long line if you do not have a fenced area. Do not risk his getting hit by a car ever, ever, ever.
No matter what you're training, always start out in the most boring place you can think of...with very few, if any distractions. Make it easy for him to succeed. The more times he succeeds and the fewer times he fails, the quiker he'll be repeating this behavior. It isn't that he's learning anything in a logical, thought out way. It's that reinforcement IS the driving force behind any behavior. Not cues. (important concept) New behaviors must be reinforced every time and immediately. Later, once the behavior is becoming quite reliable, you can skip a few times of treating...after 2 correct responses, after 4, after 7, after 3, after 5. And you can fade more as time goes on.
Remember that your dog is not "disobeying" because he's naughty or stubborn or not respecting you. He is undertrained. And distraction training is a separate thing because dogs don't generalize very well. And you must out perform the competition where environmental motivators are concerned.
Even when a dog is very well trained, has a solid recall, there is NEVER a reason to let him off leash anywhere where he could get to a road where cars are. Predatory behavior is a hard wired behavior, a default behavior and all the training in the world can not 100% reliably compete with that. And that or something related is often the mechanism behind dogs "disobeying" the recall cue.
There are several games and other exercises to help this along. Hide and seek where your dog has to find you and where he gets a big reward that he loves. Another thing to combat the prey behavior which can compete with you is to get a friend to help. Get a furry, stuffed animal and tie a string to it. Have your friend jiggle it along the ground. Have a bucket ready near the friend. You have your dog on a long line. You cue to come. He runs after the stuffed animal and ignores your cue. BEFORE he gets the stuffed animal, the bucket is put over the top of the toy. (upside down) You call the dog again. He comes. (hopefully, otherwise you wait and do nothing. Try again in about 1/2 minute) When he comes, he is given a high value treat and IMMEDIATELY released to go chase and get the "live" stuffed animal.
You practice this every day, say, 10 reps, 3-4 times a day. Start out with a closer distance between you and your friend or family member and gradually increase the distance. (distance makes things harder)
What you're telling the dog is that even with this kind of enticing distraction, HE WILL get to chase and "kill" his prey AFTER he comes first to you when called. It is not fool proof, but it can help. I could call my Doberman off of 4-5 deer, mid chase when we use to hike here in the mountains where I live.
There is also an emergency recall, which I'll post later if you like. This is a separate exercise, separate skill from a normal recall and must be carried out just right. But first work on your basic stuff, then practice with more distractions (gradually) and the prey exercise.
All this stuff takes time, lots of practice, always associating good things with coming, never punishment. And it's a life time thing. People are horrified when their dog regresses after having "gotten it" for a long time. Regressions are absolutely normal and that's why training, refreshing goes on and on.
Happy training!
There are some things to be aware of that people do inadvertantly which sabotage the development of a good recall. One thing is they call their dog to come and end all the fun he was just having. They call him to come and do something he doesn't like, like clip nails or give a bath. He's having a wee of a time chasing squirrels in the yard and he is called to come inside where all the fun stops. This is all punishment for coming when called.
Another thing people do is use their cue word, like, "come," before the dog has made an association with that word and the act of coming. He may be running the other way and the owner yells "come, come, come!!!" So, what happens is that the word, "come" becomes associated with running the other way, not coming to the ower. The cue then, becomes useless for it's intended purpose.
Often times people call their dog and he comes along but they do nothing. Wanted behavior often gets an extremely low rate of reinforcement. If you want a dog to repeat a behavior, you must reinforce with something he LOVES and you must do it every time until he is quite reliable. Then you can put it on a variable reinforement schedule.
Anytime the dog comes to you on his own accord, have some treats or a tug toy ready for him immediately. Try enticing him to come WITHOUT using a cue word....use fun, squeeky noises, run the other way, squeek a favorite toy only used for this purpose and when he gets to you, take hold of his collar and feed him a high value treat. (chicken, liver treats, hot dog, cheese) Make a huge fuss over him and (important) let him go back to what he was doing. If you're at a dog park and he's having all kinds of fun, get him to come, snap on the leash and give him a cookie. Then take off the leash and let him go back to having fun for a few more minutes. Do this a few times, then when you must go, get him, give him another cookie, lots of praise and leave. This way he learns that coming does not equal the end of the world.
Use a long line if you do not have a fenced area. Do not risk his getting hit by a car ever, ever, ever.
No matter what you're training, always start out in the most boring place you can think of...with very few, if any distractions. Make it easy for him to succeed. The more times he succeeds and the fewer times he fails, the quiker he'll be repeating this behavior. It isn't that he's learning anything in a logical, thought out way. It's that reinforcement IS the driving force behind any behavior. Not cues. (important concept) New behaviors must be reinforced every time and immediately. Later, once the behavior is becoming quite reliable, you can skip a few times of treating...after 2 correct responses, after 4, after 7, after 3, after 5. And you can fade more as time goes on.
Remember that your dog is not "disobeying" because he's naughty or stubborn or not respecting you. He is undertrained. And distraction training is a separate thing because dogs don't generalize very well. And you must out perform the competition where environmental motivators are concerned.
Even when a dog is very well trained, has a solid recall, there is NEVER a reason to let him off leash anywhere where he could get to a road where cars are. Predatory behavior is a hard wired behavior, a default behavior and all the training in the world can not 100% reliably compete with that. And that or something related is often the mechanism behind dogs "disobeying" the recall cue.
There are several games and other exercises to help this along. Hide and seek where your dog has to find you and where he gets a big reward that he loves. Another thing to combat the prey behavior which can compete with you is to get a friend to help. Get a furry, stuffed animal and tie a string to it. Have your friend jiggle it along the ground. Have a bucket ready near the friend. You have your dog on a long line. You cue to come. He runs after the stuffed animal and ignores your cue. BEFORE he gets the stuffed animal, the bucket is put over the top of the toy. (upside down) You call the dog again. He comes. (hopefully, otherwise you wait and do nothing. Try again in about 1/2 minute) When he comes, he is given a high value treat and IMMEDIATELY released to go chase and get the "live" stuffed animal.
You practice this every day, say, 10 reps, 3-4 times a day. Start out with a closer distance between you and your friend or family member and gradually increase the distance. (distance makes things harder)
What you're telling the dog is that even with this kind of enticing distraction, HE WILL get to chase and "kill" his prey AFTER he comes first to you when called. It is not fool proof, but it can help. I could call my Doberman off of 4-5 deer, mid chase when we use to hike here in the mountains where I live.
There is also an emergency recall, which I'll post later if you like. This is a separate exercise, separate skill from a normal recall and must be carried out just right. But first work on your basic stuff, then practice with more distractions (gradually) and the prey exercise.
All this stuff takes time, lots of practice, always associating good things with coming, never punishment. And it's a life time thing. People are horrified when their dog regresses after having "gotten it" for a long time. Regressions are absolutely normal and that's why training, refreshing goes on and on.
Happy training!
Training with my mind, not my hands.
Wow what a great post.
I have just this minute registered with the site after reading your reply.
I have a ***** jack russell who is a rescue dog we got at at 6 months old. She never had any training from her first 2 (yes 2) owners (the last owner had her for a week!) but we think she is fantastic in every way. We have managed to get her house trained, trained her to walk on a short lead without pulling (most of the time lol), walk on an extended lead and recall when on the long or short lead everytime.
She is a very intelligent lass who picks up on training very quickly and i have started whistle training ( and she even does this most of the time). However as soon as I let her off the lead in a safe field she loves to go hunting for rabbits and wont come back. I have tried everything I can think of including training her with the rabbit burrows next to me on a long and short lead and she recalls everytime. I have tried all the tricks with making strange noises, walking away and laying down which dont work with her.
Has anyone got any more advice on this specific peoblem? I would love to let her off more but wont as I dont trust her to come back everytime. How do i make the transition from coming back on the leads to coming back without the lead?
I have just this minute registered with the site after reading your reply.
I have a ***** jack russell who is a rescue dog we got at at 6 months old. She never had any training from her first 2 (yes 2) owners (the last owner had her for a week!) but we think she is fantastic in every way. We have managed to get her house trained, trained her to walk on a short lead without pulling (most of the time lol), walk on an extended lead and recall when on the long or short lead everytime.
She is a very intelligent lass who picks up on training very quickly and i have started whistle training ( and she even does this most of the time). However as soon as I let her off the lead in a safe field she loves to go hunting for rabbits and wont come back. I have tried everything I can think of including training her with the rabbit burrows next to me on a long and short lead and she recalls everytime. I have tried all the tricks with making strange noises, walking away and laying down which dont work with her.
Has anyone got any more advice on this specific peoblem? I would love to let her off more but wont as I dont trust her to come back everytime. How do i make the transition from coming back on the leads to coming back without the lead?
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bunnyphone
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:39 am
I would get a big length of light rope, say a washing line. Tie it to her collar and let it trail out behind her. Recall her with the line on and if she doesn't come, you can reel her in gently, and reward her every time she does come. As she gets better at this you can gradually cut the line shorter over time, until eventually there's just a little bit left on the collar. This way she doesn't suddenly feel 'free' when the leash is taken off. Hope this helps!martin wrote:Wow what a great post.
I have just this minute registered with the site after reading your reply.
I have a ***** jack russell who is a rescue dog we got at at 6 months old. She never had any training from her first 2 (yes 2) owners (the last owner had her for a week!) but we think she is fantastic in every way. We have managed to get her house trained, trained her to walk on a short lead without pulling (most of the time lol), walk on an extended lead and recall when on the long or short lead everytime.
She is a very intelligent lass who picks up on training very quickly and i have started whistle training ( and she even does this most of the time). However as soon as I let her off the lead in a safe field she loves to go hunting for rabbits and wont come back. I have tried everything I can think of including training her with the rabbit burrows next to me on a long and short lead and she recalls everytime. I have tried all the tricks with making strange noises, walking away and laying down which dont work with her.
Has anyone got any more advice on this specific peoblem? I would love to let her off more but wont as I dont trust her to come back everytime. How do i make the transition from coming back on the leads to coming back without the lead?
Never tie a long line of any sort or an extending lead onto a dog's collar, if they get to the end at speed it can break their neck at the worst, or do considerable damage at the best. Always attach them to a harness.bunnyphone wrote: I would get a big length of light rope, say a washing line. Tie it to her collar and let it trail out behind her. Recall her with the line on and if she doesn't come, you can reel her in gently, and reward her every time she does come. As she gets better at this you can gradually cut the line shorter over time, until eventually there's just a little bit left on the collar. This way she doesn't suddenly feel 'free' when the leash is taken off. Hope this helps!
Washing line tangle up but you can have a much longer line with them but I sometimes attach several long training leads together to give a longer length. When you dog is 100% while you are holding the end of the lead you can then let your dog trail the lead behind. This gives the dog more freedom and it makes it easier for you to get your dog if they ignore you.
Eventually you may be able to do without the long line completely in safe areas but a 2 year old dog that has been taught to ignore humans when they call if there is something more iteresting like a rabbit to case, it will be extremely difficult to get a decent recall. Some owners have had succes by changing the name of the recall and reteaching it from the beginning, they are not then trying to change the dog's idea of the word.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
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bunnyphone
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:39 am
You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree. The majority of dogs have very muscular necks and I'm very happy to use a collar unless I get veterinary advice to the contrary.Mattie wrote:
Never tie a long line of any sort or an extending lead onto a dog's collar, if they get to the end at speed it can break their neck at the worst, or do considerable damage at the best. Always attach them to a harness.
Thanks all for the replies.
Just to clarify she is 10 months old and responding well to all that I have done with her. She even comes on command with all lead lengths but not when she is off the lead everytime. Sometimes she is fine off but then only needs a small distraction to lose her concentration.
The problem is just getting to the point of getting her to come all the time off the lead
any ideas? I have tried as i say all lead lengths, making noises when she wont come and laying down etc but they dont always work.
Just to clarify she is 10 months old and responding well to all that I have done with her. She even comes on command with all lead lengths but not when she is off the lead everytime. Sometimes she is fine off but then only needs a small distraction to lose her concentration.
The problem is just getting to the point of getting her to come all the time off the lead
any ideas? I have tried as i say all lead lengths, making noises when she wont come and laying down etc but they dont always work.However you see it, for the purposes of this forum please do not advise people to put long trailing lines onto collars.bunnyphone wrote:You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree. The majority of dogs have very muscular necks and I'm very happy to use a collar unless I get veterinary advice to the contrary.Mattie wrote:
Never tie a long line of any sort or an extending lead onto a dog's collar, if they get to the end at speed it can break their neck at the worst, or do considerable damage at the best. Always attach them to a harness.
The majority of dogs do have strong muscular necks but YOU cannot see, whilst advising on this forum, who is posting nor their dog.
So the person you are responding too may have a big solid GSD and is unlikely to get a broken neck.
The person READING though might have a 8 month old whippet pup, which most certainly could be moving fast enough by the time it reaches the end of a 30ft line, to break its neck.
Please exercise caution when responding to posts, and recommend the SAFEST course of action, which may not necessarily be what you do with your own dogs.