Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

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Leahfem
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Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by Leahfem »

Chihuahua / Toy Fox Terrier mix. 17 weeks old.

So, I posted once before about mouthing/bite inhibition (not aggressive, just regular puppy playful problem), and the advice was very much appreciated and effective. After sticking to a strict time out routine, Chewy very rarely mouths human skin anymore and when he does, it's very soft and easily stopped by redirecting to an appropriate toy.

The past four weeks or so, though, he has developed a seemingly new habit and I am honestly just completely distraught and at the end of my rope. I'm bleeding, not for the first time, but for the first time since I adopted him Feb. 1st I am genuinely angry and regret this commitment.

In the house, he will chew on shoes, socks, etc. - anything that smells interesting - and before you say it, I know that this is normal dog behavior and it's up to me to make sure I don't leave these things within in his reach. That's not that actual problem, though. The problem is coming. On walks, he also has a love of trying to swallow EVERYTHING he comes across on the ground. Small rocks, sticks, acorns, you name it. He also does this in the house with small objects that could potentially harm/kill him. For example, someone dropped the cap to the toothpaste on the floor and didn't notice/pick it up, and I found him trying to swallow it. Not just chewing curiously, but desperately trying to SWALLOW it before I could take it away. When trying to get it out of his mouth, he began growling and warning me to stop. Obviously, I couldn't do that - my fear being that he would choke, or that it would obstruct his bowel and kill him. I forced his mouth open, which probably scared him and hurt a little, and he bit the crap out of my hand, breaking skin. I chalked that up to the situation - of COURSE he's going to bite me. That's perfectly reasonable.

However, this has repeated on walks, when he hoovers up a small rock and tries to swallow it. It has not escalated into the sock/shoe thing - 99 out of 100 times, I make SURE these things are out of his reach, but on the rare occasion, it happens - and I have been severely bitten only four times in getting these items away from him. I say "only" because if I was a bit slower in my reactions, the count would probably up to 10.

Now, I thought I knew EXACTLY how to handle this. Teach him "drop it", and "leave it". Right? When I want him to drop something, I entice him using a treat/higher value item. He is a Professional at this now. At both, actually. When it comes to putting him in a "sit" and "stay" position, I can drop treats, chicken, you name it - and he WILL "leave it", waiting patiently for his reward. I understand these methods, and so does he. I've worked hard teaching him these methods over the past month or so, every single day. He gets it.

However. I'm still being bitten. Let me explain...

For example, he has always gotten irritated about his harness and his sweaters. It's warming up in Ohio, so the sweaters have become less frequent, but his harness is obviously a must for walks no matter the weather. He bites hard when I try to put them on. Not hard enough to break skin, but hard, not in a playful way. The harness: it's a simple, loose fitting step in harness. I have tried leaving it on him continuously to make him used to the feel, and he appears used to it now. Doesn't fuss at it or try to take it off like he used to. But on occasion, I take it off. Like tonight, he's grown a teeny bit more, so I took it off to make it more loose. I read that you're supposed to be able to fit at least three fingers under it while it's on the dog. I adjust it to be a little looser than that standard, to make sure it doesn't chafe, but still snug enough to fit properly. When I was trying to put it back on, he began biting. Hard, but not hard enough to break skin. As usual. Sigh.

I thought if I gave him a bully stick to focus on, I could slip it on easier while he's distracted. I praised him, I pet him, he was all good. There didn't seem to be a danger of him misinterpreting my hands as coming to take away his treat, as I didn't put my hands anywhere near his mouth. I successfully put the harness on, though he showed some aggression by growling. It wasn't adjusted well enough yet, so I removed it again to loosen it more. He happily chewed on his treat in my lap. I tried to put it on again, still praising him and keeping my hands away from his face. I just picked him up - and he seemed fine about that, no growling, still happily chewing - and put him down, placing his front paws in the holes for the harness. When I went to attach it, though, which only requires me to snap it over his back, he went completely aggressive: Growling, barking, snapping and ripping at my hands. I put my hands in the air so he couldn't bite them, and the treat had fallen to the floor when he dropped it to attack, but then I still couldn't move. He was in my lap, so I couldn't get up; I couldn't lower my hands anywhere near him to pick HIM up and place him on the floor. I tried "drop it" with a treat I plucked off my desk, he ignored it. He was like a different dog.

This has happened numerous times. He has broken skin four time. One time, it was my lighter: I dropped that on the floor, and he went nuts over it and bit the crap out of me when all I did was hold my hand out NEAR him, giving the "drop it" command, with a treat.

I am SO confused. We practice "drop it" every day. He has gotten SO good at "drop it". He is not aggressive over his food bowl, or his toys. He even drops socks on command now. But once in a while, for reasons I can't figure out, he just... goes nuts! I can' explain it any other way. As far as high value treats like the bully stick, we practice with that too. He will "drop it" right away for a treat. Always. During PRACTICE. He doesn't hesitate - he WANTS that treat. Even over the bully stick. But once in a while, he does what I described above. He just ATTACKS frantically.

I honestly feel like I've been lying to myself and making excuses for him. "He's a dog, of course he bites and growls when he feels threatened; it's my responsibility to teach him how NOT to feel threatened" and so on and so forth. Seriously, I have NEVER EVER experienced behavior this bad in a puppy OR a full grown dog. I've raised puppies before, male and female; I mentioned in my older post that I recognize that I made a lot of mistakes in my younger dog-owning years. (Such as allowing playful mouthing as the dog grows up and then ending up with an adult dog who plays too rough with his/her teeth. I wasn't educated back then on the positive training and how not encourage bad behavior. But I never had a dog be aggressive!) This time, not only am I older and wiser, I'm a firm believer in positive training and have practiced nothing BUT that with him. I've done EVERYTHING "right", so to speak; yet this dogs behavior is - like I said - the absolute WORST I have ever experienced. I don't even know how to put into words how BAD this is when he turns aggressive. This is maddening. I'm 28, and have owned/raised many dogs... this is the FIRST dog that has EVER bitten me in anything but a playful manner. The first dog that I'm freaking BLEEDING from, again. And back then... in my younger, more ignorant years... I make lots of mistakes! LOTS. WHAT GIVES NOW?!

I'm doing everything right this time. I love this dog, and was determined to do everything right. I have read all of Victoria's advice, I've watched countless episodes, and I have read countless threads on this board. I do NOT understand why a dog would react this viciously to me now, when I'm being proper, but no dog ever before hurt me!

I'm not sure if I can give any more information, and I know I've rambled long enough... oh, Chewy has gotten ALL of his shots. Including rabies. He's all set, and he is of course on a heartworm preventative every 30 days to the DAY. He is not yet neutered, but will be soon. The ONLY thing I can think of is that it's a surge of testosterone in his adolescence? Could that possibly be the problem?! Then again, I once owned a beagle/pit bill mix, who I didn't neuter until he was well after 1 year old, and he never ever EVER bit me.

I am confused, I am so upset tonight, I can't even sleep. I've always been the person who maintains that if a dog is behaving badly, it is the owners fault for not TEACHING the dog how to behave. Even before I was 'enlightened' (so to speak) on the proper way to train and raise a dog. Tonight, I swear, I am just... distraught. I don't understand. At all. I can't live with a dog like this. But I can't 'get rid' of him either. He is my responsibility, and if I don't FIX THIS and just instead give him away, I believe he will end up in a shelter one day and be euthanized.

Please help me. I cannot stop crying, this is just totally out of my experience and I cannot find a reason for these outbursts.
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minkee
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by minkee »

Okay, I have a couple of things to add to this, but soon enough some people with experience with this will come on and help you out :) Both JudyN and HoracesMum have had very similar experiences with their dogs. JudyN's would guard a plastic spoon and see it as higher value than a piece of steak she was trying to swap it for! And is also a lurcher so you can imagine what difference that makes.

First off, I would just say don't think about getting him neutered just yet. His hormones probably ARE all over the place, and letting them settle out naturally as he grows will probably help, I think. I'm sure people with more experience can clarify or back that up.

Secondly, I think you need to take things MUCH slower. It may seem painfully, crazily slow, and even like you're pandering rather than training. But if he growls and is uncomfortable with his harness, try to step by step train him to LOVE his harness. You start off by just rewarding him for LOOKING at the harness, let alone anything else. Click & treat for looking, then touching, then putting his feet in, etc etc. I would get a brand new harness (perhaps one of the soft harnesses? Though I think one that DOESNT go over his head may be preferable) that you can build up good associations with, and still use his other one for walks so you don't have to rush the new one. There's a good video on how to take this step by step here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7edMjwEY1c
My pup, bless her, once got her skin caught in the buckle when I did her harness up. Biting and growling doesn't enter her little head, but she has been VERY wary of it ever since. I'm doing some of the work in that video to try and make her happy with it again.

Now, this is just a suggestion for one part of your problems. I don't know how to approach this from a wider point of view, or how to stop him from wanting to gobble up toothpaste caps! But there WILL be people who do know along soon :) Please don't despair, you can get past all this :)
Leahfem
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by Leahfem »

Thank you so much for replying, minkee. I've calmed down a bit, and am now just really, really sad instead of angry. I wouldn't normally bother trying to express this with other people, but in this forum I feel that you guys will understand: This dog means so very much to me. I waited a long time to adopt again, for a variety of reasons; when I just look at Chewy, my heart swells. I don't baby him, but he's my baby. I truly adore him. Having him in my life is very important, I already feel like it would crush me to lose him. When he's not randomly flipping out, he is the sweetest, most expressive little boy ever. He is my family, period.

But I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that I experienced some very hostile feelings towards him tonight. For the first time, I became truly angry at him. He's broken skin in the past, but tonight felt like the straw that broke the camels back - partly because it wasn't just one bite, it was a full on attack. I actually had to strategically grab hold of the scruff of his neck to pick him up and get him off, because no way was I just going to knock him down onto the floor and risk him breaking/spraining something on impact. I think I resented him for making me resort to that, because i obviously hurt him and made him squeal, and I felt inexplicably guilty in spite of it being my only option. It's not just the harness (which is not an over the head harness, it's a step in); for example one day when I was walking him, he hoovered up a small stick before I could stop him and began to trying swallowing it. I had run out of the treats that I brought on this walk already, so when I told him to drop it he didn't listen (even though he definitely knows the command very well by now). So I had no choice but to grab the edge that was sticking out and rip it out of his mouth. This is one of the times he bit me hard enough to break skin. He was very, very aggressive.

This has only been escalating, and I've never seen it before in my life. You know, I'm sorry to keep rambling and I apologize if this is tl;dr but... I have nobody else to rant to! But, I had an argument with my husband when I told him I found a dog to adopt and it was part Chihuahua... his concerns were that the breed is "yappy, nippy and generally unpleasant and un-trainable". I advised him that every dog is trainable, and the bad reputation that small breeds have is due to owner misconduct and laziness; that is, that any dog can be trained, but small dogs are usually babied and never taught the same good behavior that larger dogs are taught. Which leads to people assuming they are biologically just plain bad dogs, when in reality it's the owners who bear that responsibility. I compared their reputation to that of bully breeds like Pit Bulls: People are to blame, not the breed.

And now, I honestly feel like Chewy is doing everything he can to prove me wrong! I'm frustrated and disappointed in myself, and Chewy. I've run out of ideas and explanations. I hope to god that there is something that I am just... missing, or something I haven't yet heard of, that can curb this aggression.

Thank you to anyone who reads this thread. Minkee, I am going to check out that video right now and definitely implement the strategy described. At the very least, perhaps I an teach him to tolerate me putting his harness on.
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minkee
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by minkee »

It's understandable to feel the way you do :) I've dug up one of JudyN's first posts here - since then her and Jasper have come on leaps and bounds, and many a fun story has come from them too! But just so you know you are not alone, you may like to read this: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12352
ClareMarsh
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by ClareMarsh »

Hi, as Minkee said, there are people on here who have dealt with the exact same issue who will no doubt be on to help you.

I just wanted to add a few thoughts, I have a 10 month old long haired chi (so the easier half of your combination! And when things settle can we see some photos of the little tyke please :D ). Your pup is only 17 weeks old so to get annoyed with him is totally natural, there were times I had to walk out of the room because I was sooooo angry with Ted and I didn't want to scare him. Like when he got me up 5 times one night at my parents house, didn't go to the toilet outside then came in after the 5 times and wee'd on the carpet :shock: So feeling angry is normal with a pup I think, it'll just be for different reasons with different pups :D

As for him not dropping stuff, I would bet that the difference is your body language when you're practicing compared to when you really want to get the "thing" off him as you see it as dangerous. This will make him want the thing even more :roll: Ted will 99% of the time spit whatever I ask him to out but I can bet if I panic a bit more about what he has he will make more effort to eat it rather than the usual taste it then spit it out :shock: JudyN will no doubt be along to tell you what to do when you see him with the "thing" so avoid these confrontations but I wanted to throw in a few ideas re "drop it" training.

Ted was a nightmare for picking stuff up and "tasting it" when he was a tot (still does a little now) so I did load of training on this. Until I had it failsafe outside I had him on a long line and I was constantly looking for things he might pick up to avoid them. Doesn't work all the time but does cut down how many things you ask him to drop, I used to feel like on walks all I did was say "leave it" for months and even then I'd let him have some things, I picked my "battles".

You might have tried all of this but I'll put them down anyway as they may help other people. If you are still letting him see you have something when you ask then I would start to move to having the reward hidden/in a bowl across the room etc so that he starts to learn if he drops something you will reward him even if you're not waving something else under his nose. I would also do some "set ups" so you put a few things in a the room that he can "find" but are safe and then let him in, then you ask him to drop it. "Accidentally drop things and ask him to drop it, make the training scenarios more life like. Work with bits of (safe) rubbish, shoes that you don't care about etc etc. You want to get to the point where "drop it" means he drops whatever it is without thinking if you can.

You can get over all of this, it just takes time.

Just also touching on the not neutering, others with more experience will explain better but I can say that even though Ted has never been much trouble he definitely calmed down noticeably when he hit 9 months old. He is not neutered, he may yet go through "phases" but that's fine I'd rather he reach full adult maturity before I make any neutering decisions.
Proud owner of Ted and baby Ella
My blog about Ted http://tinkerwolf.com/
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Ted's You Tube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/TheTedVids
emmabeth
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by emmabeth »

I think Clare has the problem nailed here - there is a difference in your voice/body language between the practice training and the real thing.

As hard as it is - ANY time he finds something potentially dangerous - you must NOT react in a panicky way. It only makes the situation more dangerous (ie, hes likely to swallow something much faster, or whilst running away or accidentally inhale it).

So as Clare says, set up some situations with safe items and when he gets them, try running off and making a fuss elsewhere, do something he KNOWS is good - for my dogs that would be picking up a leash for a walk, or the car keys (but whichever you do, you have to follow through on the promise so a short walk or a trip round the block in the car, otherwise they learn that you lie!).

The other thing I would do is make much more of his daily food his rewards for working with you, listening to you etc - because he is still a puppy I would use just half of his daily food as rewards and the rest from a Kong or similar food dispensing toy. I would also give him some huge raw meaty bones to work on when he isn't busy training/working with you.

This will mean firstly hes got to pay attention to you or he won't get so much food (and he will be hungrier so hes keener to work), YOU have to put in the training at random moments throughout the day or he won't get enough food, but also through feeding the rest in Kong toys or gnawing on a large bone, hes working his jaws to get his food AND, NO food comes particularly easy to him - either he works at it from a toy or off a bone OR he works for you.

This should give him the chewing he desperately needs, so reduce his desire to chew other things, and tire him out physically and mentally too.

For the harness I would be clicker training him - leave it on the floor and each time he looks at it, click and reward, sniffs it, click and reward, touches it, click and reward. Then build up to just picking it up and him looking at it, sniffing it, touching it. Then just lay it over his body or touch him with it and so on, until he comes RUNNIGN when you pick up the harness because it means time to earn rewards.
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JudyN
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by JudyN »

Leah, I absolutely know how you feel :( If you haven't already, do have a look at my post that Minkee linked to, as it will give you Jasper's background. Like you, I was baffled and had my confidence kicked in my teeth because I couldn't see what I was doing wrong. Even though Jasper is my first dog, I don't think I did do that much wrong. On the other hand, his issues can't be purely genetic as his mother and a couple of siblings work with rabbits and will bring them back to their owners quite happily whereas Jasper would still rip my arm off if I tried to take a rabbit from him. In a way, him being so large makes this more of an issue (he can bite harder and deeper, and can reach more vital parts of your anatomy) but any dog who can bite is a serious concern regardless of size.

I can give you pointers, but what I'm not sure about, and I hope others can make suggestions, is the fact that your dog endangers himself by trying to eat things - Jasper just chewed anything that was obviously non-edible, and being bigger, I think small items like pencil erasers aren't such a risk if he should swallow them.

I pretty much agree with what the others have said, but have a few additions...

When you ask him to leave or drop and he obeys, do you think he is responding out of obedience, or because he anticipates something really good happening? If it's out of obedience ('I did really want this, but Mum says I have to drop it'), then there's a level of frustration involved for him, and when you ask him to drop something he values (and it's irrelevant that it's just a stone), he just can't cope with that level of frustration, and flips. What you want, is that he responds with 'Yay! All I have to do is drop this boring thing and Mum's going to give me something great! Hurrah!' This may involve you backtracking with your 'leave' & 'drop' training which may seem counterintuitive, but at the moment he is stressed because he keeps having to give things up, and you want to remove as much stress over possessions as you can.

So, what you should do... Around the house, you obviously need to be as meticulous as you possibly can (and so do all the other family members). If it helps, don't let him into rooms where there is bound to be 'stuff', though of course you still need him to spend time with the family. Then, when he does get something - and you can set up the situation so he gets something safe - don't ask him to leave it, but ignore him and let him get on with it. If he seems tense when you approach if he has something, then try walking towards him, dropping a tasty treat, and walk away, so he doesn't see you as a threat. If possible, work on this till he'll let you touch him while he has a chew, as long as he is completely relaxed (actually, from your post you may already be at this stage, which is great!). You need to convince yourself that the risk to him of eating something he shouldn't is less than the risk that he should fear confrontation, bite someone (maybe a stranger), and have to be put down.

So, by doing the above, he doesn't automatically think that when he has something, you want it. But of course, you still do want it! So teach him a really good recall in the house, with absolutely fantastic treats. When he has something he shouldn't, walk out of the room, get a treat, and call him. Hopefully he'll realise that the lump of sirloin steak or whatever you give him is far better than the bit of plastic he's chewing on, and come running. You can then go and retrieve what he has - if he seems in the slightest suspicious, manouevre him (luring with the treat) so you can shut the door/stairgate behind you. Again, it's worth setting up situations where you call him away from something he has, give him the great treat, and then let him go back to what he had, to avoid his suspicions.

Much of this is about avoidance - I say that Jasper is perfectly safe around the house now, but this is management. We have a policy of 'finders keepers' (unless the recall works) and I wouldn't try to get food off him, and also wouldn't try to put his harness - or even his lead - on if he had a chew. But he has mellowed and matured immeasurably (he's two) in the last year or so and if you can try to avoid giving your chi any reason to flip, he should too. Partly it's learning to deal with a degree of frustration, and partly it's growing out of the urge to chew and eat everything.

When you're out, it's impossible to avoid stones, etc. To be honest, I would think about muzzling him. Jasper is always muzzled and is completely used to it (there's a video of him having a whale of a time with a ball on rope here: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14241), because he's been known to steal from people's shopping bags and would probably bite if they tried to get it back. Don't worry about what people think - most people ask me 'Does he eat rubbish, then?' And it really is for your dog's benefit, if he's likely to eat something dangerous otherwise. I don't know what the best sort of muzzles for chi x's are, but please avoid the style that prevents them opening their mouths.

Jasper use to be uncomfortable having his harness put on, and also would have a strop if, say, he was sitting on the corner of a blanket, or his lead, and I tried to pull it out from under him. This got a lot better with age. For getting the harness on, we found the best way was to make it a two-man job - one put the harness on, and the other distracted by feeding treats or letting him lick peanut butter off a spoon - you then don't have the worry of him becoming possessive over a chew. In fact if you do muzzle him, you can smear peanut butter inside the muzzle which should keep him happy while you put the harness on him!

I've rambled quite a lot - I hope some of it is relevant and helpful. Basically, the more you can avoid confrontation now, the more easily he'll grow out of this and learn that he doesn't have to do it.

PS Just noticed I've cross-posted with Emmabeth, but haven't got time to revise my post in view of the excellent advice she's given!
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Ari_RR
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by Ari_RR »

Just a couple of small, peripheral thoughts here.

Do try not to have any dangerous items at home within his reach... I think it's easier than most people think it is, and his small size is an advantage here.. All you really have to manage is the floor space and perhaps sofas, he is unlikely to get to countertops, for example.

Keep in mind that your state of mind has a huge impact on him and his behavior. When you get upset, mad, angry, disappointed, or sad - he without a doubt senses this. Which I suspect may lead to something like "hmm.. Mummy is really scary.. Not much fun to be near.. Should I trust her? Perhaps I better not..." Easier said then done - "don't get angry" - but do try. Summon your sense of humor, know that you are not at all alone in this, know that with a bit of work you will overcome most of these issues... and, somehow, don't get angry!

Good luck!
Leahfem
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by Leahfem »

I posted this long overdue reply in the wrong thread this morning. LOL. That's what I get for doing stuff while half asleep. :oops:

I just wanted to thank everyone for all of the replies. I had numerous computer problems, first with this old windows machine, then I got a linux PC from a friend, then that crashed (although i changed nothing, downloaded nothing, apparently it's a simple problem that can be easily fixed by the friend who built it) and now I'm back on my windows machine, after a struggle! So I apologize for my absence, your advice and replies were incredibly valuable to me and went a long way in making me feel better, not to mention helping me keep my emotions under control when trying to teach Chewy.

Chewy and I have come quite a long way, and he has mostly learned that teeth are not OK. He rarely uses them, and when he does it's in a gentle playful manner. He still becomes aggressive with certain high-value items, though, and the best it seems we can do about that is getting him to drop it with a treat, even though that doesn't always work. When walking, he readily drops sticks and trash when told, even if I don't have a treat, so thankfully I have not had to invest in a muzzle; an example of his possessive/aggressive problem is (and this is gross) his discovery of dried cat vomit that he found somewhere (?!) in the morning (I'm assuming the cat vomited while I was sleeping, since I never saw or heard it!). When I tried, calmly, to convince him to drop it he stubbornly refused, even when I waved a very tasty and unhealthy treat (a small cut-up piece of those 'Beggin Strips'; a friend bought them for him) under his nose. I watched helplessly as he swallowed it down, much like a snake would swallow a mouse. EW. But I didn't feel that the battle was worth it, as he was growling and jerking his head away, and would surely have bitten had I forcibly removed it from his mouth. :( I don't understand this, but still, I am grateful for the huge improvement.

I love my baby, and am so glad that I was able to maintain a relationship with him! I owe much of our progress to you guys.

I am curious about the neutering positions here, though. So many trainers and vets disagree on the best time to do it, and I've seen that on this forum many/most of the posters here think it is best for a dog to attain sexual maturity first and wait 2 years or so. I'm just wondering when/why that narrative became dominant? I've seen quite a few discussion on here about it, and it seems that much of the links provided in support of waiting are from trainers, and trainers haven't reached a consensus on this yet. Is there a study that I haven't been able to find? Or anything that explains this a little better?

On one hand, it seems as if the most common belief is still that it's better to get your dog fixed earlier. On the other hand, it also used to be very common to believe that smacking your dog on the nose with a newspaper was appropriate and effective, and we all know how terribly wrong that is!

(Apologies for bumping an old thread, however I felt it would be redundant to create a new one when my post is in direct response to this particular discussion.)
Ari_RR
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Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by Ari_RR »

Very nice! Great to hear positive updates!

Ok, neutering.. I am sure others will articulate much better than I possibly can the biochemical, physiological, and canine behavioral aspects. But here are my thoughts anyway...

Why neuter at all? It's a surgical procedure, anesthesia, pain, and all.. I've heard of 4 main reasons:

1 - to prevent unwanted impregnation of a female, reduce the number of unplanned puppies, and so on. Good reason. But... If you have a dog who tends to run away and has a bad recall - would you cut one of his legs off to prevent this?? I hope not, there are other ways - training, environment management, equipments (long leashes, harnesses)
Plus, in my part of the world, I don't see many ladydogs in heat roaming around.. In fact, i haven't seen any, to tell the truth. So, bottom line - this is not a real concern for me. Ari (my dog) is very unlikely to be unsupervised AND run into a female in heat at the same time.

2 - to reduce risk of certain medical conditions.. Testicular cancer, perhaps? This is more real, although I'd like to review some studies myself on this. But - this is not something that plays a major role during first 2-3 years.

3 - to correct behavioral issues - I am not buying this. I've seen very well behaved intact dogs, and very rude, aggressive neutered ones. Some people can't or don't want to put required effort into training, and hope that neutering will do the job for them. It just doesn't work this way. And many believe that early neutering may in fact lead to behavioral issues later in life, instead of solving them.

4 - to make the dog more socially acceptable.. There are some dog parks where intact dogs are not allowed.. People look funny at you sometimes if you have an intact dog, and you almost feel defensive, in need to apologize and explain it. I get this, I've been on the receiving end of this many times, and sometimes it makes me a bit uncomfortable (I'd rather not deal with this stuff, life is hard enough as is :lol: ) But not nearly uncomfortable enough to send by boy to surgery!!

And now our experience.
Ari is a big boy.. 90+ lbs.. And he went through the bully stage, and that was a major pain in the neck. He has always been very gentle with small dogs and puppies, but big male dogs - wow, they were fair game and needed to be tested and pushed, every single one of them!! This lasted from perhaps 11 month until about 18 months old. A long time, yeah! During that phase it was impossible to have him off leash, unless sure that there are no dogs around, so he spent most of that time on leash. But even on leash there were tense moments, so he spent most of this time on leash and as far away from random dogs as possible. Only controlled encounters with familiar dogs were encouraged. Yes, major pain in the neck, no doubt, for a long time.

But - now the good part - once he grew out of that bully stage, he became a very nice dog! Still some issues.. Bad recall, dislike for some of our neighbors.. But with other dogs he is getting much, much better - confidently ignores them, plays with the ones he wants to play, and is not scared of any of them (in a good way - if another dog is growling at him, he will just move on)

Don't know if it's him being unneutered that contributed here.. But what I do know is that once we were passed that difficult adolescent phase, he became a very nice animal and still unneutered.

So, we'll keep waiting, and will make a decision when he is fully grown, in consultation with our vet, based solely on eliminating the risks of certain medical conditions.

Just my 2 cents :lol:
chay
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:58 pm

Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by chay »

my take on it is, that dogs managed to evolve pretty successfully for tens of thousands of years before medical vet science figured out neutering - if having their bits was such a very real danger to a dog's health, how are they still so prolific today?

it is true that there is a lower incidence of cancer in neutered dogs - because you can't get cancer in bits you don't have :P

so IF you do want to neuter your dog to prevent unwanted puppies, waiting later until the dog is sexually mature makes total sense to me. remember being a human teenager, with all those hormones flying around? imagine puberty being cut short in the middle, or even not being able to be started at all - what kind of a grown up person do you think that would make? i think they might have some different issues to work through than a person who successfully became an 'adult' in body AND mind as they grew through it and their biological processes were able to stablise naturally.

the other thing i try keep in mind, is that vets are medical doctors - they don't spend much time at all on behavior in their training. its kind of like how i wouldn't ask a GP for advice if i was suffering depression - i would be referred to a psychologist.
On one hand, it seems as if the most common belief is still that it's better to get your dog fixed earlier. On the other hand, it also used to be very common to believe that smacking your dog on the nose with a newspaper was appropriate and effective, and we all know how terribly wrong that is!
exactly! for one of our most constant and long-standing animal companions, we have only just recently started seriously studying dog behavior and psychology. old "common wisdom" is still so prevalent, but as we understand more about the science of it all the more evident that alot of it is at best just misguided or misunderstood, and at worse actually detrimental and damaging to the dogs overall wellbeing.
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: Seriously vicious puppy - Breaking skin - I am so desperate!

Post by jacksdad »

Leahfem wrote:... I've seen that on this forum many/most of the posters here think it is best for a dog to attain sexual maturity first and wait 2 years or so....
actually it's less about sexual maturity and more about physical and emotional maturity. As someone with a dog that defaults to fear responses in stressful situations I could care less about his sexual maturity, but would dearly love to have his primary source of testosterone back to help give him confidence.

my two cents. if you can and or are willing to do what it takes to prevent unwanted/planned mating, let your dog finish physically and emotionally maturing. typically this is achieved at about 2 years old. some breeds it can take an additional two years or so. I can't tell you how many people come here regularly looking for help with an issue and have a dog that has been spayed/neutered and the issue is one that is allegedly not supposed to happen once spayed/neutered according to many of the "snip them all NOW" types. That plus learning about fear in dogs has changed my opinion to basically be this.....

There is a lot of scare tactics/reasons out there to get people to spay/neuter. these can safely be ignored. But there are some actually good and sound reasons for spaying and neutering, but the real reasons don't require that you run out and do this RIGHT NOW or your a "bad" dog owner. It's not the responsible dog owner that needs to rush out and do this :wink: The sound reasons are to prevent the passing on of genes that shouldn't be passed on by breeding dogs with health issues. Or simply to not risk an unwanted/planned litter.

The scare tactics such as "your dog will have higher risk of cancer if you don't spay/neuter" or "your dog is less likely to be aggressive" (I want to meet the idiot that came up with that one) and other similar reasons in my opinion can safely be ignored.

It is my opinion, if you are willing to take the necessary precautions to prevent and unwanted/unplanned litter, there is no rush. let your dog finish developing as nature meant it to. let it reach physical and emotional maturity before making an informed choice based on good info and not scare tactics. you can always snip tomorrow, but you can't unsnip if you choose the wrong time or wrong reasons to spay/neuter.
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