Desperate for help. Can my dog's behaviour be improved?

[Minky]

I have a 2 year old German Shepherd. She's fantastic with people but she's terrible around other dogs. She's not aggressive, at least i don't think so, but when i'm walking her if a dog comes towards us she will bark non stop and lunge at it. She doesn't growl or show her teeth, she just barks. I don't think it's aggression because when i have let her walk up to the dog she's barked at she stops.

I don't know why she does it. We used to let her off the lead all the time to play with other dogs but about a year ago her behaviour changed and i don't want to let her off the lead in-case she did get aggressive. I don't know why she does it, she's fine at home. When she's in the garden she barks and barks even if there's nothing there. She's very boisterous and full of energy, which i know is normal for a young dog but we've walked her for miles and played ball and she still doesn't relax. I don't enjoy walking her because i find it stressful having to look out for other dogs all the time. The other day she saw a dog coming towards us so i turned around and went the other way. She started whining really loudly and wouldn't shut up, people were looking and it's just embarrassing.

Could it be that she's over protective or has anxiety? When we're in the house if i sit down she'll get up and sit right next to me. Every single time i sit down she'll get up and sit/lean against me. She's a lovely dog i just wish i knew what was wrong.

[runlikethewind]

I will let the experts advise properly but I too am not sure this is fear aggression or if it is, it is just leash aggression or she could be a 'frustrated greeter' (a term coined elsewhere) - always wanting to meet other dogs, calling them in with her barking but she cannot meet them naturally because she in on lead.

The others will advise but can you tell us what she would do IF you let her meet a dog whilst on lead (as I presume above you mean you let her off and she is fine with other dogs) Also what do you class as fine - How exactly is she with other dogs?

There's a lot you can do to help her depending on her intention.

I think the other issue you might have is a touch of separation anxiety, not resource guarding you as such. I know people think their dogs are protecting them when they are aggressing but mostly it is fear of the dogs that is causing the issue, not guarding you. However, I HAVE heard GSDs can have a tendancy for guarding but I am not entirely sure.

Others will be here soon to help.

[SusanRShipman]

It sounds like barrier frustration - she wants to go greet the other dog but the leash is preventing her from doing so.

Don't walk her without a leash, for obvious reasons, but I would work on getting her to stop and sit and give eye contact when another dog is passing by. Make sure her reward is better than the other dog, either her favorite treat or toy.

Once or twice a week, see about taking her to a dog park or doggy day care to socialize safely with other dogs, but discourage any rambunctiousness or rough mouthing.

Good luck!

[Minky]

I will let the experts advise properly but I too am not sure this is fear aggression or if it is, it is just leash aggression or she could be a 'frustrated greeter' (a term coined elsewhere) - always wanting to meet other dogs, calling them in with her barking but she cannot meet them naturally because she in on lead.

The others will advise but can you tell us what she would do IF you let her meet a dog whilst on lead (as I presume above you mean you let her off and she is fine with other dogs) Also what do you class as fine - How exactly is she with other dogs?

There's a lot you can do to help her depending on her intention.

I think the other issue you might have is a touch of separation anxiety, not resource guarding you as such. I know people think their dogs are protecting them when they are aggressing but mostly it is fear of the dogs that is causing the issue, not guarding you. However, I HAVE heard GSDs can have a tendancy for guarding but I am not entirely sure.

Others will be here soon to help.

When i say "fine" i mean she doesn't try and attack them etc We stopped letting her off the lead because she started to get very dominant with other dog's and getting too carried away i.e. play "biting", jumping on them etc She's a very highly strung dog. I know i need to get her into some sort of training classes but i don't know what kind. Somebody told me that she thinks she's in charge of me and that's why she barks at other dog's because she thinks she's the pack leader and has to protect me all the time.

I had another GSD before her and she was nothing like this at all. She was so laid back!

[Erica]

Mmm, I'd leave off on the dog park and day care until we know if this is fear or not. Taking a fearful dog to a high-stress situation like that is liable to make her worse, not better - speaking from my own experience with a reactive GSD girl (who behaves almost exactly the same as OP's dog).

The sit and watch thing is good if you can get her to do it. However, I'd try to keep my distance from dogs at this point - if you see a dog, turn around and go the other way, or dodge behind cars or buildings (depending on your environment) to keep her from reacting.

Could you give us a rundown of her typical day - time and durations of walks, what and when and how she's fed, any training she gets - so we can try to suggest a best course of action for you?

edit: Some people think all dogs' issues come from "dominance." This thread has a great little article on why it's a rather uninformed stance...

[SusanRShipman]

Mmm, I'd leave off on the dog park and day care until we know if this is fear or not. Taking a fearful dog to a high-stress situation like that is liable to make her worse, not better - speaking from my own experience with a reactive GSD girl (who behaves almost exactly the same as OP's dog).

The sit and watch thing is good if you can get her to do it. However, I'd try to keep my distance from dogs at this point - if you see a dog, turn around and go the other way, or dodge behind cars or buildings (depending on your environment) to keep her from reacting.

Could you give us a rundown of her typical day - time and durations of walks, what and when and how she's fed, any training she gets - so we can try to suggest a best course of action for you?

edit: Some people think all dogs' issues come from "dominance." This thread has a great little article on why it's a rather uninformed stance...

Good point. She said the dog was fine when greeting the other dogs so I assumed she meant it wasn't fear based or anything. I retract my previous statement about the dog parks/daycare.

I would still work on the eye contact thing though. Just start off at a distance that she's comfortable and calm with and slowly work from there. If she reacts badly, just remove her as quickly as possible and try again the next day.

[Minky]

Mmm, I'd leave off on the dog park and day care until we know if this is fear or not. Taking a fearful dog to a high-stress situation like that is liable to make her worse, not better - speaking from my own experience with a reactive GSD girl (who behaves almost exactly the same as OP's dog).

The sit and watch thing is good if you can get her to do it. However, I'd try to keep my distance from dogs at this point - if you see a dog, turn around and go the other way, or dodge behind cars or buildings (depending on your environment) to keep her from reacting.

Could you give us a rundown of her typical day - time and durations of walks, what and when and how she's fed, any training she gets - so we can try to suggest a best course of action for you?

edit: Some people think all dogs' issues come from "dominance." This thread has a great little article on why it's a rather uninformed stance...

Good point. She said the dog was fine when greeting the other dogs so I assumed she meant it wasn't fear based or anything. I retract my previous statement about the dog parks/daycare.

I would still work on the eye contact thing though. Just start off at a distance that she's comfortable and calm with and slowly work from there. If she reacts badly, just remove her as quickly as possible and try again the next day.

Ok, well a typical day would be:

8am: A long walk (roughly an hour and a half)
9:30am Feed her
12pm: Another walk, roughly 45 minutes
5pm: A shorter walk which would be about half an hour

In between that we usually leave the back door open so she can run in and out whenever she likes and we play ball in the garden. She seems to have an obsession with tennis balls. She will chew and chew all day if you let her (we don't let her). As soon as she's let out she wants the ball. I think it's a comfort thing. Me and my mum have been trying to get her to socialise by walking her in open fields where other dogs are but now i'm not sure if we're going to make her more anxious? I just feel helpless and a rubbish dog owner because i don't know why she is the way she is and my other 2 dogs i had before weren't like this. I feel like a failure.

[jacksdad]

when in doubt it is always safest to go with fear. two main reasons, if you assume fear then you are more willing/likely to take measures to protect your dog from having to deal with something that scares it. And second, the basic steps for helping a dog over come fear overlap with helping a dog that is just easily aroused our does really want to say hi, isn't scared, but just over excited and being restrained by the leash causes frustration...which leads to the lunging and barking....are very similar. More so than the other direction. So, when in doubt, assume fear with dog/dog on leash issues. it's safest, and if your wrong doesn't set you back..you "tread water" if anything.

couple side thoughts....

1. socialized. socialized doesn't always mean the dog has to go up to another dog. Dogs are not harmed or disadvantaged if they don't play or meet and greet every dog that comes along on your walks. In fact you would be doing those of us with fearful dogs a HUGE favor by NOT letting or encouraging your dog to meet/greet/go up to random dogs encountered while on a walk. Some dogs just don't want to be bothered by another dog and might get snarky with your dog. Some dogs are fearful and having an over excited GSD bounding towards them severely negatively impacts their rehabilitation.

2. I wouldn't 100% stop your dog from chewing, I would look to find things that are ok for your dog to chew and teach your dog to chew those verse things you don't want your dog chewing. Chewing is a great stress reliever and a great way to occupy a dog. preventing a dog from ever getting a chance to chew something can lead to a dog seeking out things you don't want chewed.

Just some food for thought.

I am not 100% convinced this is fear, but clearly she gets over aroused by other dogs...which is not good either. I would for sure skip dog parks, dog day care and random dog meet and greets for a little while. This is to break the cycle of see dog, flip out regardless of what the core emotional motivation is. So, to start, I would try and walk her at times and places you are least likely to run into dogs for a little while.

While your mostly avoiding dogs for a little while lets discuss some things you can do to help her be calmer and more in control when sees dogs "close by". we are not shooting for comatose, just more impulse control, less arousal.

are you or have you done any training with her to date? do you play any games with your dog other than fetch?

reason I ask is, because in addition to our advice on what to do on a walk, while it sounds like your dog is getting plenty of physical exercise, your dog does seem a little under mentally stimulated.


Question for RLTW - I am wondering if a "stealth BAT" type exercise would help with approaches and impulse control. thoughts?

[Nettle]

First off you are doing really well, so ease up on yourself just a few tweaks needed for biiiig improvements.

My regular experience with GSDs is that they want to lunge at other dogs and make them run. Whether this is bullying or frustrated herding instinct depends on the dog - often it is a mixture of both. And of course it can be fear/resource guarding. So for now it's a matter of you taking her to a distance that she does not react at (this will differ day by day, walk by walk and dog by dog) before she gets antsy, and rewarding her when she is calm. Stand between her and the other dog and do not let her eyeball it - break the line of sight by body-blocking, or else distract her with a toy and reward with a game of tug when she has demonstrated calmness, not while she is still hyped up from trying to reach the other dog.


Over time you will be able to reduce the reaction distance until she walks right by other dogs without trying to dive at them.

Meanwhile check out our Exerrcise the Mind thread for things to do which will tire her out mentally - she already has a great exercise schedule, so all you need to do is stimulate her clever GSD mind more.

I'm trying not to overwhelm you with too much information at once - stick with us: this is a fairly long job but it works well. We will support you all the way.

[minkee]

Here's the link to our Exercise the Mind thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1135

ps. Good name

[emmabeth]

You have some great advice so I don't really need to add to that.

What I will say is - she needs and wants YOU, your company, attention, direction etc far far more than she needs other dogs - so do not feel bad that she can't go play with other dogs or greet them at this point. Dog to dog 'play' is NOT the innocent, sweet, fun thing many people think it is. Dog play is 'practice' - it might be practice chasing, hunting, herding, fighting, whatever .... and some dogs (and it varies dog to dog, breed to breed, gender to gender) can keep it 'play' and many MANY dogs cannot and it becomes more about seeing where their status lies with others and pushing boundaries and 'testing' other dogs reactions.

GSD's tend to be very herdy/drivey/pushy players - chasing other dogs, grabbing hind legs, throwing themselves at other dogs. About the only dogs I know that like to play with GSD's... is other GSD's, and even then most times if left long enough it will turn nasty.

So, don't feel bad that she doesn't get to play with other dogs - what she NEEDS is to play with YOU, work with you etc.

She seems to get a lot of physical exercise from your daily run-down, but not much or even any, mental stimulation... so...

See what happens if you switch feeding from a bowl to feeding from a selection of food dispensing toys. Start out making them super easy so the food practically drops out at her feet, and work up to harder ones where she gotta chew and maybe throw them about to get the food out.

Take some of her food ration and use that as training rewards (mix in some higher value stuff too for difficult things such as counter conditioning when you see other dogs, theres no way that will work with low value daily kibble!) - this does two things. Firstly shes hungrier so shes more interested, secondly it gives you a good prod to do more training/fun brain exercise work with her because if you don't - she misses out on food!

Find some jobs for her to do - look up Treibball on youtube for example. Maybe she can learn that and herd giant exercise balls. Perhaps learn to do tracking with her - anything that gets her brain going and makes her work with you.

Finally - no more unsupervised outdoor time. Either shes out there with you or shes not out there at all. This way you can use time outs for unecessary barking, you can use food rewards to counter condition to any noises she may be barking AT, and of course you can spend time training and playing games with her.

[runlikethewind]

Hi Jacksdad

With the added info given, I don't really feel confident in advising - really because Minky has been offered several different options and they do compete if I may be so bold as to say and to add another option into that (BAT) is just going to confuse things and I find GSDs quite difficult to understand myself.. so I am really the person to go into detail on this.

Minky has been advised to train a Watch Me (without allowance to look at other dogs). She's also been advised to cue a Look at the Dog and back at her for a treat which is the opposite of the first method - of course both of these at a distance where the dog does not react and slowly reduce the distance. She's also been advised to avoid dogs all together and turn away. And then 3rd stage BAT is neither of these (because the end result is for the dog to have confident greetings) and neither of the first two have that as the aim as explained here.

Also, I do get the point about being the dog's world above all else - playing really good fun games and focus on the owner etc and really having fun, but (and I feel this is in conflict with other's advice but hey I am no way as near experienced as the people on here) but I don't see it as unreasonable for dogs to greet other dogs off lead (as I understand this is best) if we can really assess the situation and work by the rules as laid out by Nettle on another post about dogs on leads and reading the other dog's intent etc. I totally agree about playing - that is not a requirement IMHO but a butt greeting and a passing by is a delight to see when it is calm and both dogs know or have learnt to communicate well.

Finally, I have no personal experience with GSDs. The only ones I have seen have all been reactive or pushy or a bit bullyish/very herdy/wanting to round the other dog off in some way or another - as Emmabeth has said. One I know of one who attends OB (I don't..can't stand this sport) and agility - the owner spends all the time requesting Watch Mes - the dog is not allowed to look at any dogs and does perfect Watch Mes - he looks amazing but as soon as he is let off to run a course, he is rushing straight over to aggress at dogs so we all have to stand behind bars. I cant see what progress is being made there.

So... I don't know what to say - sorry that sounds a bit demotivating really.

This might give Minky some ideas on what methods would suit her dog and maybe she could better work out if it is fear or frustration. I don't know? For some weird reason, I feel a bit lost here myself

http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/do ... nt-summary

[Minky]

Thank you all for your advice. I agree that she doesn't get enough mental stimulation it's just i wasn't sure what i could do to stimulate her mind. I will read that link you posted to get some ideas. We've tried giving her toys, bones, those Kong things that you put food inside. but she's not interested. We've bought her expensive meat bones but she just turns her nose up at them. She's a very fussy dog when it comes to food.

[runlikethewind]

What's an expensive meat bone?..... ?? Just go to Morrissons or the butchers and get a cheap-as-chips pig's trotter or some lamb soup bones - edited (raw of course)

What training treats do you use? What do you fill the Kong with?

[Minky]

What's an expensive meat bone?..... ?? Just go to Morrissons or the butchers and get a cheap-as-chips pig's trotter or some lamb soup bones - edited (raw of course)

What training treats do you use? What do you fill the Kong with?

We used small pieces of chicken for the training. What would you suggest i put in the Kong?