Permission to greet dogs!

[HuXen]

Hi guys! New here and would really appreciate some advice if possible! My boy Pica is 30 months old, and likes to greet each and every dog he sees when out off leash. He greats well, sometimes a bit over enthusiastically but I'd much rather him wait for a cue, before running off. If I see a dog before he does, and don't want him to greet it (on leash dog for example), I can call him back to me and put him on the lead 100% of the time. The issue is when he sees a new exciting dog before I do. He's a Lurcher (Sighthound mix, Whippet X Bedlington X Deerhound) and extremely fast, so he gets to the dog quite quickly and recall goes out the window. Once there, recall works again but I can't stop him mid run at all.

Luckily, nothing bad has happened from this, though there has been a situation where there was the potential for him to get injured, when he approached two on leash Rottweilers who were not dog friendly at all. So I'd love to be able to have him 'check' with me before he goes bolting across a field to see another potential friend, but I have no idea where to start.

Thanks for reading, any replies are greatly appreciated !!

[JudyN]

I was going to say that you've got pretty good recall for a lurcher, then I went off to find pics of him and realised I know you from another forum!

I use a whistle as an 'emergency recall' for Jasper, always giving high-value rewards, and mostly I can call him back when he's approaching another dog. But he tends to go up cautiously anyway and turns away if he's unsure of a friendly reception, so he's not as committed to saying hello as Pica is.

I wonder if you could try offering Pica a treat every time you see a dog and then, if the dog is off lead and looks OK, release him to greet it. Then, maybe, when he sees a dog before you do he'll return to you for the treat and you can decide whether to put him on lead or not.

Hopefully the experts will have some more advice!

[Nettle]

Okay here goes.

You are taller and can see further - you will see the other dog(s) first. It is your decision not his whether he greets or not.

If the other dogs are on-lead, he does not greet.

If the other owner looks nervous, is on the mobile or listening to music or half a mile away or 'minesweeping' with an extending lead - he does not greet.

If the other dog drops to the ground and stares at him, or stalks forward with full eye contact and stiff legs, raised tail, they do not meet.

You manage this by calling him back as soon as you see the other dog, putting him on-lead, rewarding him really well, and getting between him and the other dog so he is on the side furthest away. This means you can protect him if the other dog looks nasty.

When the dogs are closer, observe - does the other dog play-bow, wiggle its body in greeting with dropped ears and a relaxed mouth? They can meet - if the other dog is off-lead, you let yours off also and give him a phrase or word eg 'go see'.

If the other dog is on-lead, walk on by and do not let them greet. On-lead should never meet off-lead, as on-lead feels insecure because it can't run away.

Practice calling your dog back, rewarding him, putting his lead on for a few places and then releasing him, several times each walk so that he does not link coming back with being kept away from the other dogs. At 30 months he is a grown-up chap, and should be happy to let you take charge of his social life.

And congratulations on the recall - that is pretty good for this type of dog - well done!

[jacksdad]

actually, it's rather rude and dangerous to allow your dog to run up to other dogs. even if your dog asked your "permission" first. There are many of us working with fearful dogs that having another dog running up sets back progress and makes helping our dogs much, much harder. That's the best case. worst is there is a dog fight and someone ends up in the vets and or hospital.

Here is how I would go about the basic idea you are asking about.

First a couple thoughts.

1. your dog really doesn't need to go up to other dogs. It's a much stronger need for us humans to see our dogs inter acting with other dogs than our dogs have to inter act with other dog. This isn't to say it's wrong and 100% never be allowed, but it's certainly NOT all that important. The most important aspect of "socialization" is your dog simply not being afraid or over reacting to other dog on sight. A little over simplified, but for this discussion it's an important point due to the fact there are dogs that absolutely can not have other dogs running up to them. they are generally fine as long at this doesn't happen.

2. part of recalling your dog away from other dog is no allowing the habit of running up to dogs in the first place. another part of a good recall is being the center of your dog's world. you are the source of all the good, fun, tasty etc things in life. your have a super strong bond because you spend time with your dog, you train your dog, you play with your dog. if your bond it not strong, your recall won't be all that strong. again, little over simplified but food for thought. a good recall is a mix of responding to the "command" and your dog thinking you are super cool and rewarding to be around.

To be able to call your dog away or have your dog look for permission I would start with building a really, really good recall. here is a good thread on building recall. it's the foundation for my dog's recall. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7155 in addition, I worked on making recall a game too. so it's not just come to me on command because we are going home. which is an nice way to kill a good recall. Its a game. he comes to me and has fun and gets to then go on and have more fun, which for a dog might simply be sniffing a new bush or continuing on the walk.

I would also build a really good watch me. this is where your dog either looks you in the eye or just at you in general, either will work, on command. Then build that so eventually you can ask your dog to look at you when other dogs are around. when your dog does, provide some supper special tasty treats. your goal here, see dog look at you. we do this for fearful dogs, but for different reasons. then you can choose to just walk way and not great the other dog. BUT your dog still gets something really cool out of it.

ONCE you have those two things solid, solid being you would be $20 dollars your dog will respond to recall or watch me in the face of another dog, you then could ask the other people if it's ok if your dog and theirs meet. if it's not ok, you have the tools to keep your dog at a safe/respectful distance. If it is ok, walk your dog over, don't let it run. if your dog pulls or lunges, turn walk away..turn and start again...if your dog can not make a calm approach end the meet and greet and move on.

AKC K9 good citizenship requires dogs approach calmly at their owners side, then sit and wait for permission to meet/greet the other human and dog. this would be a great phase two.

in a off leash area you can relax all this of course. But it is dangerous and rude to allow a dog to rush up to another dog when the other dog is on leash and permission has not be asked first human to human.

[HuXen]

Thanks for the quick replies guys! Hope to get to work on this asap

jacksdad - I know it's rude, and that is exactly why I want to fix the problem as soon as possible. I don't let him run up to each and every dog, and most of the time I do stop it from happening. But there are times when I miss certain things and he's gone. It's not something I want to continue at all. The park I go to for 'every day' walks is off leash, and 99% of the dogs get on and play together, that is why I haven't worked on it before, because it was never an issue, and I didn't think about it. However, after reading about peoples dogs who are fearful and reactive and how an approach like Pica's can set them back, I never want that to happen. Luckily, like I said 99% of the dogs I do meet on regular walks are all off leash and playful together, known each other for a while and there hasn't been one incident, so greeting is a good thing in that respect. Other walks I go off the beaten track and don't see any other dogs anyways. But for when there's a chance (beach walks for instance) of this happening, I'd rather he ask me before hand, so I can assess the situation/dog or put him back on the lead more easily.

Really do appreciate the advice guys thanks.

[jacksdad]

on behalf of fearful dogs everywhere, I THANK YOU for making the effort to train your dog so it doesn't run up to dogs on leash.

here is a thread on dog body language that will help with nettles advice regarding reading the dog. I only half take the other dog owner's word about their dog and look for the things nettle talks about above.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2959

[HuXen]

Thanks very much jacksdad! Will definitely give that a read.

Today's walk saw him very well behaved. He was playing quite well with his friends, after I'd spent about 10 minutes in the other field on my own, working on basic recall with his favourite treats, when an older dog was walking around on leash (he was 15, I asked the owner later on). Pica saw, and his ears went up (which is his cue for 'I'm about to run'). I called, he came, I rewarded. I kept the leash off as he was focused on me, and not the other dog, and he stayed by me, and they walked past. I chatted to the owner for a bit, and Pica trotted along side me for a while, then nagged me for the frisbee and ignored the dog totally.

It's a small step, as the dog wasn't running, or very active, but it's nice to know it can be done. Will keep you all updated on Pica's (and mine) progress.

[bendog]

Well done. I have a 10 month pup, who wants to meet every dog she sees too, like yours her recall is great, but can disappear when she sees another dog (or cat/duck/horse etc), on the other hand I also have a fear reactive dog, so I know how annoying it is to have a dog run over to you so I try hard not to let my pup do it.

[doggiedad]

your dog doesn't have recall. if he did you could call him whether he sees another
first or you see another dog first. i think you should work on his recall
usuing a long line. i would train train daily (several times a day) in short
sessions. i would train near a dog park. you'll have all of the distractions
you'll need. since you have a sight hound you don't have to get that close
for your dog to be distracted. you want him to greet on command and that's good
except from a distance how do you know the other person that's walking their dog
wants your dog meeting their dog?

[ClareMarsh]

Hi there, I'm working on the exact same issue with my 10 month old long haired chihuahua who would love to go and say hello to every dog we see. Clearly I don't want him running up to on lead dogs (although I wish other people would do me the same courtesy when Ted is on lead) or dogs that are beyond a certain distance from me (he doesn't like rough play so can find himself in a panic quickly) or dogs I just don't want him to meet.

I've worked out the rough distance above which he will focus on, and stay with, me and I am working on reducing that. What I've noticed though is the importance of what Jacksdad says (copied below) re being the centre of your dogs world.

2. part of recalling your dog away from other dog is no allowing the habit of running up to dogs in the first place. another part of a good recall is being the center of your dog's world. you are the source of all the good, fun, tasty etc things in life. your have a super strong bond because you spend time with your dog, you train your dog, you play with your dog. if your bond it not strong, your recall won't be all that strong. again, little over simplified but food for thought. a good recall is a mix of responding to the "command" and your dog thinking you are super cool and rewarding to be around.

I believe I have a good bond with Ted but even so if I have been "lazy" on a walk and just let him do his own thing (which I think is good in the right circumstances) without playing some games/doing some outdoor training if another dog then appears and I suddenly try to become interesting to him it is much harder to get him to focus on me and he is more likely to want to go to the other dog. If however I have been periodically playing games and interacting then the other dog is far less appealing and the distance above which he can ignore them is much closer.

I wanted to share this as you mentioned in your post about having been playing recall games and then seeing another dog and him staying with you. It sounds like he might be a little like Ted in this respect so thought I'd mention it incase it helps

[HuXen]

your dog doesn't have recall. if he did you could call him whether he sees another
first or you see another dog first. i think you should work on his recall
usuing a long line. i would train train daily (several times a day) in short
sessions. i would train near a dog park. you'll have all of the distractions
you'll need. since you have a sight hound you don't have to get that close
for your dog to be distracted. you want him to greet on command and that's good
except from a distance how do you know the other person that's walking their dog
wants your dog meeting their dog?

...Then that would be the exact situation where I wouldn't allow it? :S I don't want him to ask permission just so I can say yes everytime...

And he DOES have recall in every other situation. Anything from food he finds, eating grass, chasing a ball/frisbee his recall is there. I can throw the frisbee, and call him off it mid run. I would like to be able to apply this to when he sees other dogs/squirrels and am slowly but surely getting there

Clare - Yes They sound very similar. Especially when it comes to us being 'lazy' on walks. Definitely the same with Pica, he's far more focused on me if I'm not doing a 'lazy' walk and letting him do his own thing. I agree it's great in the right circumstances but can hinder progress if the situation does change quickly (as it can in dog parks)

[minkee]

My dog's recall is reliable enough that I don't do this now, but when she was still a bit hit and miss, I used to leave a long line (about 10m I think it was) attached to her harness, so even if she got that flightly look in her eye I could step on the end of the line and she wouldn't be able to dart off.

[rachel540]

Hello! I just wanted to ask what games/ activites people do to be the centre of your dogs attention. At the moment pepper is going through her teenage stage, recall is hit and miss and we havent always been as strict with the training as we should have been. Shes off the lead alot more and comes back when called but not without looking around and thinking 'oh ok then i suppose so' but if shes spotted a dog this seems to make her hesitate more and often decide to ignore us. We use treats (the same dried food she is fed at meal times) and we have her favourite squeaky toy which she then demands to be thrown for a game of fetch, in order to grab her attention if calling her doesnt work. We follow the rule if a dog is on lead we put pepper on lead and walk right past them, if a dog is loose we let pepper greet them. Would this be considered acceptable?

[minkee]

That's my rule on the whole, Rachel. But I do also watch the dog to see how keen they look, and also the owners to see how nervy or relaxed they are. Sometimes even if the owners are fine with it, the dog doesn't look keen, and sometimes even if the dog looks perfectly happy the owners look like they're about to go into a full scale panic if a dog approaches! I also make sure there's a relatively short distance between me & my dog, and their dog, before I allow interactions. This is so I can be in a position where my dog will listen to me, and I can observe the interaction.

It's also good to remember that not every dog has to be greeted. Dogs don't NEED to play with other dogs, the play is actually more like sizing each other up and testing limits and boundaries.

As for attention... my dog is a ball fanatic, so I have it easy! However, here is a playlist of a few videos about building attention, by kikopup. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... ature=plcp

[bendog]

I play a kind of quick fire game with treats. So I recall, ask for a trick (maybe a spin, hand touch, jump through arms - active stuff) and then throw a treat, then same again throwing the treat the other way etc. Gets lots of nice quick keen recalls and the dog gets to chase the treat. Would also work with a toy, but my pup isn't toy mad, and my dog loves toys, but won't return them reliably and for this game I like to keep things moving fast.

We also play chase me - I call them, run, and they chase. Lots of zig zagging, sudden changes of direction etc.

And hide and seek - I hide behind a tree/bush/wall etc and call them. Plenty of rewards when they find me. Sometimes I don't call and they have to find me anyway - encourages them to keep an eye on me and not wander off too far. Equally on walks I'll sometimes go the other way without giving a "this way" cue, so they have to be alert to what I'm doing or they'll get themselves lost.

The other thing I do is to reward "check ins" - not every time (though usually they get told good dog) but if they look at me - sometimes I'll reward this with a treat. And as a result they'll look at my fairly often on walks, and it gives me an easy opportunity to recall them and get them on leads if necessary, since their attention is already on me, and they will come to me for their reward, without really needing a recall.

I tend to err on the side of caution and put my Pup on a lead near any dog, even if it is off lead, only because she is still a rude puppy and some dogs, even friendly ones, don't like it. We don't have dog parks and such here, so off lead dogs aren't neccessarily friendly. When we get near enough I'll shout to the owner "is it ok if I let her off to play?" - and if I'm happy I'll let her off, ideally I prefer both dogs to meet on lead first, and then let both off to play, but it's not always possible as some owners just will not put a lead on their dogs .

I have my own dog off lead most of the time, and he is fear reactive towards other dogs, but is fine if they are a distance away and has good recall- if a dog starts coming towards us I put him on lead. Before his reactivity issues I followed your rule of if the other dog is off lead then mine can stay off - but that was because he had little interest in other dogs and so would just sniff and move on if a dog approached him, and not go out of his way to greet other dogs. Pup wants to play, flattens herself to the ground and then darts away, etc and it startles some dogs, she wants to play with every dog - a polite sniff is not enough for her, and many dogs don't "play" - she is also nervous around some bigger dogs, and can find herself panicking if I'm too far away. So basically it depends on your dog, their dog etc. I've met dogs when my dog and theirs are both on lead and even then sometimes the other dog is clearly worried and trying to get out of the way, despite the other owner insisting they are friendly. I've also had owners say it's fine to let my pup off, only for their dog to growl at her (as I said, she is a rude pup so it's likely her own fault).