) Obviously I don't think I'm being unfair and he doesn't seem to have any problems doing it, in fact if I'm in there a while he goes to sleep in the doorway, but just out of curiosity what do you all think?
Would you consider this unfair?
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Would you consider this unfair?
I don't allow Spencer in the kitchen. Our kitchen is really narrow and having a dog in there while you're cooking is dangerous imo, there's no out of the way place for him to lie and I'd either be constantly moving him or stepping over him and would most likely end up dropping something on him at some point. So for that reason I taught him not to enter the kitchen. Today I've been told that that's unfair, that if I don't want him in a room I should put a baby gate up so he cannot get in there at all. Now don't get me wrong, I don't expect iron self control and if I'm not in the kitchen the door is shut but if I'm in there I expect Spencer to stay out without me having to block access. And he does. He lies in the doorway which I find acceptable but he doesn't enter the kitchen even if I drop food on the floor (this is often rewarded by him getting the dropped food so he quickly learned that staying put is well worth his while )
Obviously I don't think I'm being unfair and he doesn't seem to have any problems doing it, in fact if I'm in there a while he goes to sleep in the doorway, but just out of curiosity what do you all think?
) Obviously I don't think I'm being unfair and he doesn't seem to have any problems doing it, in fact if I'm in there a while he goes to sleep in the doorway, but just out of curiosity what do you all think?
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
Not unfair at all.
Nothing wrong with having no dog zones in your house, especially the kitchen. Very sensible idea in fact.
Nothing wrong with having no dog zones in your house, especially the kitchen. Very sensible idea in fact.
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
Oh it's not the no dog zone they were objecting to, it's the fact I expect Spencer to stay out of the kitchen without being physically prevented from going in there. Apparently dogs have no concept of rooms so expecting them to learn to stay out of one room is highly stressful to the dog. I would agree if I were expecting him to stay out of there when nobody's here and the door is open and then punishing him when I caught him going in there but they say it's just as stressful to expect him to stay out while I'm in there. I disagree but just wondered what others thought.
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
My kitchen is six feet square and dogs are not allowed in it either, while I am in there. When Mr. Nettle is in there or nobody is in there, they can go in if they want - but really a kitchen is seldom fun if there is nobody in it Doing Things with food. (no they don't want the food - they want to watch what I'm doing with it).
I don't use a physical barrier. They know where the kitchen starts. They don't seem traumatised.
I don't use a physical barrier. They know where the kitchen starts. They don't seem traumatised.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
If it works, there's nothing wrong with it at all. It would be different if you were cooking a roast chicken and Spencer sat in the doorway whining, drooling and getting in a terrible state, and then you told him off when he couldn't stand it any more and came into the kitchen. There's a difference between expecting a behaviour, and finding you can get the behaviour so going with it and rewarding it.
Jasper is allowed in the kitchen if I'm making something that I can keep my eye on at all times. Otherwise I ask him to leave the kitchen, and I reward him when he leaves. I do use a stairgate then, but he's more food obsessed than most and if I didn't, I'd have to keep an eye on him the whole time in case he succumbed to temptation. Also, if he did manage to nab food I couldn't take it off him, so he'd learn that being sneaky works
Spencer's not daft - he knows that staying out of the kitchen is more likely to get him a reward, so he's happy to do it.
Jasper is allowed in the kitchen if I'm making something that I can keep my eye on at all times. Otherwise I ask him to leave the kitchen, and I reward him when he leaves. I do use a stairgate then, but he's more food obsessed than most and if I didn't, I'd have to keep an eye on him the whole time in case he succumbed to temptation. Also, if he did manage to nab food I couldn't take it off him, so he'd learn that being sneaky works
Spencer's not daft - he knows that staying out of the kitchen is more likely to get him a reward, so he's happy to do it.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
Oh I expected him to learn to stay out of the kitchen from the start. However I did realise I'd have to teach him, that he wasn't just automatically going to know to stay out. It was actually very easy to teach him, he's terribly foody and very quickly picked up on the fact that if he stayed out of the kitchen food would often come flying through the air to land near him
And nope, Spencer doesn't appear traumatised either Nettle
And nope, Spencer doesn't appear traumatised either Nettle
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
I would bet the person who made that comment is either an eater or a feeder.
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
I would not consider keeping the dog out of kitchen unfair.
Ari most certainly would.
We happen to have an open floor layout, essentially no doors and even no walls to speak of downstairs, one area flows into another... Most of time Ari is allowed into the kitchen, but I have to say that he rarely bothers anyone there... If there is one rule that we have been able to enforce without exception, it's that begging for food NEVER works, no matter what kind of sad and pitiful face he manages to put on.
So.. If something is cooking, he wonders in, kinda hangs around with a starved dog's expression, and soon departs to a much more comfortable spot on the sofa...
Ari most certainly would.
We happen to have an open floor layout, essentially no doors and even no walls to speak of downstairs, one area flows into another... Most of time Ari is allowed into the kitchen, but I have to say that he rarely bothers anyone there... If there is one rule that we have been able to enforce without exception, it's that begging for food NEVER works, no matter what kind of sad and pitiful face he manages to put on.
So.. If something is cooking, he wonders in, kinda hangs around with a starved dog's expression, and soon departs to a much more comfortable spot on the sofa...
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
Nope, your expectations are totally fair and you have set about ensuring the rule works in the correct manner.
If you expected him to stay out when you are NOT there.. or when you are not there and there are huge piles of food all over the place... different story, but you know thats not the case!
If you expected him to stay out when you are NOT there.. or when you are not there and there are huge piles of food all over the place... different story, but you know thats not the case!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
I don't consider it unfair to expect the dogs to stay out of the kitchen without a pysical barrier. It is something that needs the full cooperation of other family members however. At one point I started to train the dogs not to enter past a certain point, because my husband didn't want the dogs in the kitchen while he was in there. Guess who then proceeded to often call the dogs into the kitchen to lick the peanut butter knife or clean up spills? Needless to say, our dogs out of the kitchen policy is very lax. They do understand the out command and they seem to have come to a pretty good understanding of "the big guy seems cranky today when we go past that line, so we will just hang back here for now." Not that this is the ideal scenario, but the dogs don't seem particularly upset by it. Sky will tend to naturally settle by the door which is within the "out of the kitchen" designated area. Sirius tends to be a bit more problematic as she is highly food motivated, but she will often be off elsewhere and not seem to even realize someone is in the kitchen.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
Victoria has used the technique of "claiming space", at least at the door, in one of her recent shows (although I haven't seen any new ones since the "New York" series of 2010). She also once set up a remote camera and watched a dog enter the kitchen, and when it started to "counter surf", she let out a scream which startled the dog and helped reduce the dog's unwanted behavior. And she also was able to have a couple stop their dog's annoying begging at mealtime by directing the dog to stay out of the area and go to his/her "spot" or "place". These seemed to be effective and well-done, although I don't know if she would still use the same techniques now. But I believe it is fair to give a dog rules, boundaries, and limitations, although the proper way to do so with positive reinforcement can be tricky. If you toss a treat for the dog when s/he approaches the kitchen, it may reinforce the unwanted behavior. Any ideas on how to do this correctly?
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
Sarah, very similar to what I do with Jack. No baby gate, he waits outside the kitchen while all the cooking and commotion is going. Sometimes he gets nothing for it, sometimes he gets a random treat. I purposely but randomly give him food for waiting outside the kitchen.
I don't think you are being unfair in the least.
I don't think you are being unfair in the least.
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
that is not what happened, rewatch the episode. What she did say was "Stains away....Stains...away". the dog was neither screamed at or startled.DogNut wrote: She also once set up a remote camera and watched a dog enter the kitchen, and when it started to "counter surf", she let out a scream which startled the dog and helped reduce the dog's unwanted behavior.
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
All I did to teach Spencer to stay out of the kitchen was remove him every time he came in and rewarded him when he was sitting in the dining room/kitchen doorway. At first I gave him food rewards at regular intervals to reinforce that staying out of the kitchen was rewarding but as he got the idea the rewards decreased. He does still randomly get them but nowhere near as often as he did in the beginning.
I don't expect Spen to stay out of the kitchen if I leave the door open and go out though, that does seem unfair to me. I just shut the kitchen door so there's no need for remote cameras, startling the dog or anything like that.
If I'm not mistaken there was an episode where VS did what DogNut says, it wasn't the Stains episode though, it was an earlier one.
I don't expect Spen to stay out of the kitchen if I leave the door open and go out though, that does seem unfair to me. I just shut the kitchen door so there's no need for remote cameras, startling the dog or anything like that.
If I'm not mistaken there was an episode where VS did what DogNut says, it wasn't the Stains episode though, it was an earlier one.
Re: Would you consider this unfair?
It's really no different from training your dogs as Dognut says, to claim space, as in at the doorway to leave you room to open the door and have visitors enter unmolested, or another example, having your dogs stay away from the dinner table while you're eating.
It's not unfair, it's merely teaching your dog some self restraint. - What's the word I'm looking for. Self control isn't it either... You know, when a dog can resist a temptation, look at a treat but not eat it. Oh what's the word....
It's only possibly unfair if you're not consistent. Your dog can readily work out when he's not allowed somewhere when it's a permanent rule, that's easy, but it's a lot more confusing when he is allowed somewhere at some times but not allowed there at others. It is still very possible, but you need a definite signal your dog can follow so he can work it out. You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong but I've read in some threads about a traffic cone on the table meaning 'this is not a play time', I'm busy, so don't bother me. Maybe not that, but something to let Spence understand when he's not welcome.
It's not unfair, it's merely teaching your dog some self restraint. - What's the word I'm looking for. Self control isn't it either... You know, when a dog can resist a temptation, look at a treat but not eat it. Oh what's the word....
It's only possibly unfair if you're not consistent. Your dog can readily work out when he's not allowed somewhere when it's a permanent rule, that's easy, but it's a lot more confusing when he is allowed somewhere at some times but not allowed there at others. It is still very possible, but you need a definite signal your dog can follow so he can work it out. You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong but I've read in some threads about a traffic cone on the table meaning 'this is not a play time', I'm busy, so don't bother me. Maybe not that, but something to let Spence understand when he's not welcome.