Dog Whisperer/Dog Listener/Dominance methods.. discuss.

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Pooh Bear
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Post by Pooh Bear »

Brook wrote:Say we have children, and each one of are trying our best to raise our child the right way, but your technique, and my technique might be totally different in how we raise our children. Does that mean that each one of us are wrong in what we are trying to accomplish, which is well behaved, and adjusted children?
I just have an open mind to things and I see advantages in different training methods, not to say that everything I see is the right way.
When I was a child my father used to knock seven bells out of me. It worked. When he was around and in that sort of mood, I was the most beautifully behaved child you could ever hope to meet. I barely dared to breathe let alone anything else.

Despite how that may sound, I do believe he thought he was doing the right thing, he was trying to raise polite well behaved kids. And I grew up to be a polite well behaved adult, and I am fairly well adjusted I guess.

But the end never justified the means. What he did to me was wrong, very wrong, and IMNSHO there was and is no justification for it. It isn't always shades of grey, some methods are just plain wrong.

So it isn't enough for a technique to work, there are other measures that have to be considered as well, and kindness is one of them.

Having an open mind about training methods is one thing (and generally a good thing at that) but there are some things that are never acceptable, no matter what. You draw a line and you don't step over it.

Kicking dogs in the ribs, jabbing them in the neck, alpha rolling them, psychologically threatening and intimidating them is abuse. I wouldn't care if it was the most effective and efficient training method available (which it isn't), there is still no place for abuse in training.

I never want to be in a position where my dog does as I ask purely because he is terrified of what I will do to him if he doesn't. He deserves better than that.

But the thing I dislike most about CM is that he does these things slyly, without being honest and upfront with the viewers. Which leaves people with a completely false impression as to what he is really doing. E.g. he talks about calmly subduing dogs when he means throttling them. It's no wonder viewers get the wrong idea. People come away thinking that he was worked some sort of magic by communicating with them. Whereas really it's just another terrified shut down dog.

If he was honest about what he was doing (next time the dog does X I'm going to kick it/jab it/etc, it will soon be more frightened of me than it is of X) I would have more respect for him (though not for his methods) but then he wouldn't be nearly so popular and popularity means ratings and ratings mean money.

In the meantime it's the dogs who suffer, at the hands of their owners who think they are doing the right thing by following his examples, and that's the real tragedy.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

Brook, we were all beginners at one time, but we all gained experience by having dogs and training them, we found out what worked and what didn't. Many dog trainers have come across from horses for various reasons and you can't treat a horse the way some people treat dogs, they are far too big.

Horses are trained to walk next to you on a loose lead, these are often young, stroppy colts and fillies, if they can be trained without the gadgets to punish, so can dogs.

That clip I put up was one of his better ones, when I first saw the clip of his toughest cases I cried, I have a dog that was a lot worse than the one in the clip and now she loves to great dogs in a very nice way. She walks up to them with good body language and say "Hello". Gracie is 10 inches high and this is to big dogs as well. That aggressive type of behaviour is fear not dominance and has to be treated as fear.

There are many trainers like CM but as he has put himself on the tv he has to take the bad with the good, he gets the money so has to take the critisism as well.

One of my other dogs Joe, was trained by being beaten, 10 years later he still has a lot of fears which I can't get rid of. He also has brain damage caused by either the beatings or being given drugs.

My Greyhound is the second dog I have taken on that had shut down, he was beaten to make him run faster on the track, if I moved quickly or raised my hand for any reason he would scream. If I tried to take things off him he would threaten me, no it wasn't dominance, it was fear. Now I can take anything off him but I had to learn how to think outside the box to do it.

There is no one method of training dogs, horses, children etc, but the principles of training are the same but have to be adapted to the species we are training and what we are training. If you were reading and someone came and punched you, what would your reaction be? I know my first reaction would be to punch back harder, but that wouldn't solve the problem, the punches would just get harder and harder until someone was hurt. I hope I would be able to ask what that punch was for and try to solve the problem without more violence, it would be a much better result.
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Brook
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Post by Brook »

First off, I did not, and still do not believe that any of you were bashing me. Ya'll were expressing your views, opinions, experience about all of this, just like I was expressing my thoughts about CM.

All of you have opened my eyes to what I really wasn't seeing or hearing from CM, and ya'll have converted my thinking about him now.
Yes, I totally agree, I never thought of kicking a dog in the ribs, or forcing them down on their sides as a good way to make a dog submissive. In fact, I thought that would make a dog even more aggressive.

People are making a dog do what they want by terrifying them, not by the dogs thinking for itself that its the right thing to do, and will want to do what would please their owners.
When you treat your dog right, and train them in the proper way you have a happier dog when you get your dog to comply with love, compassion and respect, and they know they will get rewarded somehow, whether its through food, praise, or a pat on the head.

I call this respect. You respecting your dog, and they respecting you.
I have found since I have started given my dogs the positive, reward treats in training them, they are so much happier, and willing to do as I ask them to do now. I love that, and the main thing is that its working.

Ok, all of you have made your point, I will not watch CM again. BTW, I only watched his show. I never applied his method in training my dogs.
emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth »

Just to clarify, couple of posts have mentioned dogs becoming 'shut down' but I dont think anyone has explained what this really is.

'shut down' is another term for 'learned helplessness' - learned helplessness is a recognised state, whereby the animal in question has learned to do nothing. They know that nothing they can do will result in anything beneficial happening - so they just do nothing.

You can see this when someone alpha rolls a dog and the dog freezes and just lies there, not moving.

That dog has just learned that no matter what he is scared of, the handler is MORE scary, theres no point objecting to anything, it will only result in more scary things happening.

This is the ultimate really in dominating another being, if someone does this to you, you dont respect them, you fear them.

If you use this kind of method to train, your dog becomes more and more shut down, and is able to learn less and less. (You dont learn when you are fearful, you dont learn when you are too scared to think).

Another thing that can happen is that when the dog trained this way is in a fearful situation, with someone he is less scared of then that dog is very likely to react aggressively, usually MORE aggressively than they would have done in the first place.

An example would be:

A dog associates food time with having his food taken, so he defends his food.
His normal handler has punished him for showing his fear so he no longer shows that fear, but inside.. hes still very worried someone will take his food..

The dogs new handler is a small child, thats not a scary person, so when they walk by the food, or make a move that the dog percieves as threatening, instead of being scared into not reacting, the dog reacts and flies out and bites the child.

This dog could have easily been trained to associate people with more food, and he will have lost his fear of people near his food, so he would no longer have been a danger.

Instead he was punished for showing his fear - that can never take away the initial fear, only add to it.

Thinking of it in a human context often helps, we all have something we react less than rationally to.

Mine is wasps - i go NUTS when i see a wasp.

If someone tried to stop my reaction to a wasp (which is to scream and run around), by pinning me to the floor and sitting on me. Would I learn not to react to wasps. Yes.
Would I ever learn not to fear wasps? No. What I would learn is that wasps + that person = horrid thing, and so id stop reacting.

I would probably try and avoid that person, and become quite stressed with that person, especially in situations where I knew wasps were likely (so id not want to go on a picnic in the summer with that person!).

If a different person who was weaker or less of a threat, made a move to me that i mistook for an attempt to pin me down and sit on me, when I saw a wasp, or even just knew wasps were likely to be present, I would more than likely attempt to push that person over or make them go away from me.

If a third person, gave me £10 every time I saw a wasp, and £100 every time i saw a wasp and did not scream and run... what would I learn then?

Id learn not to scream and run.
Id like the company of that person.
My fear of wasps would drop.
I might even start to actively LIKE wasps, especially when that person was around.
I might even be curious to see if anyone else would give me stuff for not reacting to wasps.

So you can see, the two methods - the first one inhibits learning, you learn only bad things, and increases the chances of a misunderstanding ending in an aggressive response.

The second method encourages learning, you learn only positive lessons and increase the chances of calm, sensible behaviour.

Im still looking for someone who will give me money when I see wasps though....



:lol:
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

Brook wrote: Ok, all of you have made your point, I will not watch CM again
You can learn a lot by watching CM but with different eyes you will see what is good and what isn't, that will help you train your dog. It is just as important to know what is wrong and why when we train any animal. You should start to watch the dog more and CM less so learn to interprete what the dog is saying.

When I first got Tommy she had shut down, she had learnt nothing she does works so had learnt to be helpless in everything, that took about 14 months to get her out of it. With Merlin, not only had he learnt to be helpless, he had also given up on life. :cry: He was also full of infection which nobody had picked up on, once the infection went, he grew 2 inches, the infection was pulling him down. He was sent to England to be rehomed because nobody could get him to interact with him. Now he reacts to anyone with an Irish accent, he won't have anything to do with them and tries to escape.

This is the picture I fell in love with Merlin, just look at those eyes :cry:

Image

This was taken 2 day before I got him just after he arrived in Glasgow.

Image

As you can see he had deteriated in the 2 months between those pictures, it wasn't the rescues fault, he didn't want to eat, didn't see much point in it. I don't think Merlin would have lived for much longer if left were he was.
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emmabeth
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Post by emmabeth »

Arrrrr, Brook you got in there whilst I was posting my mega long post.

Don't stop watching though, watch any and all trainers you can, go on Youtube and watch as much as you can (Ive just found a great guy on there, Eric Letendre, ignore some of what he says, he doesnt word things as well as he could and he still has the whole 'pack leader' idea, but its how he applies it and what he actually means that matters, and he means 'dogs need guidance and boundaries, not to be trained with pain or fear').

By watching how people and dogs interact you can learn loads, and reading dogs body language in peoples video clips is very useful (and then you go dog training, dog behaviour nuts, like some of us and get really upset by the things some people do to their dogs).
Carrie
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Post by Carrie »

Some great posts and a topic which can really get me fired up. Emmabeth, you certainly give good analogies. I couldn't say it any better. So, instead of writing a post that looks more like word salad, I'll post these links. These words might as well be my own.

BTW....as an aside, has anyone read the Coppingers' book mentioned in one of these links? I highly recommend it.....fascinating, compelling and very enlightening.

Here are the excellent links for anyone who is sitting on the fence about CM. I highly recommend reading them. Very well described and explained.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


http://thebark.typepad.com/barking/2006 ... llan_.html



http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
Training with my mind, not my hands.
Carrie
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Post by Carrie »

Oh Mattie! Kudos to you for what you've done for Merlin. What a sad state he was in. He is so lucky to have you and your love and knowledge about dogs. It's just flat out heart warming!
Training with my mind, not my hands.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

My knowledge has come from taking on rescue dogs, most I would never have taken on if I had known just how bad they were but once I had, I panicked first then knuckled down to try and turn them round :lol: Problem is many rescues are not honest when you go to take one one which is what happened to me with some of my other dogs. Merlin was obvious when you looked at him.

I talk about my dogs problems to show other owners that anyone can change these dogs if they are given the right advice and use common sense.
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Nettle
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Post by Nettle »

Mattie, that's a wonderful job you have done onyour Merlin.


As Emms says - don't stop watching other dog trainers. We learn so much from it.
DawnStorm
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Post by DawnStorm »

South Park had a great episode on CM where he trained Eric Cartman. :lol:
My current crew:
Bruce the Albino Dobe; Flanders the Belgian Malinut; Leela, Scuttlebutt, and Felix, da kitties.
All much-loved but not spoiled!
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