Advice on training rear end awareness?

[Erica]

I've been doing Kikopup's Rear End Awareness with Ami and Zeus the past couple of days. Ami seems to be doing well - he very quickly understood to step onto the platform with one foot, then two feet, then keep those feet on the board while stepping to the side.

Zeus is having some difficulties, though. First is that he drools a LOT once we start training (he gets very excited about food, and being a mastiff...well ), so instead of using a book or the Wii balance board I'm using with Ami (hehe), I'm trying to use a folded up towel. I'm training him on the hardwood floor parts of the house so that the contrast between the floor and the target is noticeable, but I'm wondering if it's too close in texture to a carpet for him to notice? If so, any suggestions on what I could use?

He also focuses exclusively on my hand. Though I faded the treat from the lure very quickly, he still targets my hand (which is good!) but doesn't seem to notice what exactly earned him the click. I've tried using slightly lower value treats to lower the excitement level, but that doesn't help much...pretty much everything is high-value to Zeus; some things are just higher than others! My timing is sometimes off, I'll admit, but I'm paying super close attention to when I'm clicking with Zeus and I am very close to when his feet touch the towel. Should I just keep on going and see if he gets it eventually? I've also tried luring him from different positions relative to me (eg, from in front of me and from either side), so that the constant click-earning is his feet on the target, not him standing a foot in front of me. Is this changing too much too soon, though, for him to learn?

I know he and Ami learn at very different rates, but I wanted to catch any problems early in this so that I can give him the best chance to succeed. I can also try to record a session with him if that would help. Thanks guys!

[Horace's Mum]

Ok, I've just watched the video, and I know I wouldn't be able to do it with Horus that way, for the reasons you have just described. Targeting the hand for the food would distract him from realising that it is feet that are important.

The way I would do it is to go back to the start, and freeshape the front feet position from scratch, with no luring. The aim is to get the front feet targeting the book etc really strong before moving on. Once you've got that (and I would reward away from the book, ie throw the treat a few feet from you so he has to repeatedly move off the book and back on correctly, to really reinforce that position) then move on to pivoting. I would probably still avoid luring, because Horus really doesn't work well with it, just can't focus with a lure in front of him, so I would stand next to him and put pressure on him ie move towards him and build up until you are making contact if necessary, until you get a tiny movement from a back foot - anything at all - and click that and reward away from the target. Keep building on this tiny bit by tiny bit until you have worked up to the whole pivot. You might have to start really really slowly - if you can't get a back foot picked up then you might just have to click a weight shift to begin with.

That would be my method, with a dog who doesn't do luring, likes to freeshape, and a handler who enjoys freeshaping more anyway!! Very different to Kikopup but equally valid. That's the fun of having 2 different dogs though, you have to learn two different ways to do things!!

[Erica]

Thanks HM! I'll try that tomorrow. This will be my first time free-shaping, so we'll see how it goes... Is there anything I could to do to introduce Zeus to the concept, or let him discover it as we go along?

[Horace's Mum]

Just remember it may take him a while to realise he is allowed to think for himself, so reward the tiniest thing to begin with, even if it takes ages for him to get the connection. Try just clicking a look at the target to begin with, build up to movement towards it, then nose touch, then paw touch then foot on, both feet on then extend the time he has both feet on to build the position rather than movement. The secret to freeshaping is less is more - click lots of tiny things and you will get the bigger picture quicker, hold out for bigger steps and he might lose confidence or interest.

If he really isn't interested in the target, then put a treat on it and click as he picks it up, and then reward for the click. Just do this a couple of times and then wait for him to look for the treat, click, and go from there. If he has never played this kind of game he might not be able to acknowledge the target without a little help. But always throw the treat away for him to fetch - not far, you still want it to be fairly quick fire, but that helps to reinforce that the target is what he is working with, and that food isn't in your hand.

Freeshaping is great for really showing if you have your timing right, if it's slightly off you might end up with something completely different!!

[Erica]

Alright - thank you for all the help! Will report back after training tomorrow.

[minkee]

This evening, inspired by Erica, I tried the beginnings of some 'rear end awareness' training for Scout. For your entertainment I videoed the effort, and the results are here: http://youtu.be/LNLeU6yqHjo As I say in the description, it's not my best ever effort!

Our very very first step at shaping 2 paws on a book, so as to begin some 'rear end awareness' type work. Not my finest hour of cinematography - lots of cat bum - only forgot to switch all the lights on halfway through (black dog on a black background!) - and Parsnip pushed the camera over at one point too! AND I stood it back up on the wonk.

Also not our finest training hour either! I was trying to reward any interaction with the book to begin with, with the idea that once she knew it was 'all about the book' we could focus on getting her front paws on there. This sort of worked - but I didn't forsee her deciding that 'kill it' was a viable approach! Things worked out eventually - I jackpotted her with the rest of the treats at the end, when she firmly planted both paws on the book. Happy ending hurrah!


ps. please ignore my boyfriend talking to his game!

I posted this in the General Forum last night, but I'm moving it here so we can keep it all in one place. I'd forgotten where this thread was

Erica reminded me about throwing the treat away from the book, but the treat-fiend cat pounced on it. You can see her all through that video trying to work out how she can get more - and falling off the table! I'll take another shot at it tonight and see where we get to (sans cats).