Loose Lead Walking gentle ideas for a reactive gsd?

[reactive123gsd]

Oh my our first 10 min walk allready started like hell...... *sigh* *sigh* *sigh* I took the dog in the backyard without working him up, and I let him sniffed out some treats for 10 mins before he could get super hyperactive wanting to play. Then I took him out for our first 10 mins walk... you can't imagine what a stresser! At first everything was fine, even if my heart was beating right when we got out of the house... then we walked nearby my house to get some bus tickets which is a 5 min walk. Before we got there a neighbor's reactive dog came straight towards without me even noticing it, because there where tons of people infront of them.... There was no way we could move of the way. It was pure crazyness both dogs where over over threshold but the other dog's owner kept up comming towards us. After I meet a friend that was flapping is hands infront of my dog happy to see him (my dog was getting so aroused like crazy), like imediatly after what just happened. I told him not to do it, but wow I sounded like a jerk. I have to allways sound like a jerk all the time! It is driving me nuts, you guys can't imagine how many fights I have been in just because I sounded like a jerk (without even wanting to be one).. people do not understand! I am going to wait another 30 mins, and take him out on another 10 min walk... let see how it is going to go! Like I with all this nervousness I need to drink a whole bottle of Bach flowers!

I be super rich too if I had a nickle for every mistake I have made, and the ones I will make.

Horace wow I can't believe how our dogs are so alike! Like how where you able to find out he was such a stressed dog? Like how could you tell? Did at first you thought he was just being wild, or something.. or was he shutting down? You know I was intrested on getting some suppliment for stress (for him, and I).. I am going to look it up. A friend told me that they believe it might be his food too. Right now he is on Royal Canin GSD Junior... I was told that with something with less proteins would help him out, and also adding steamed carrots in his kibble would work. I didn't add the steamed carrots in because I was afraid that it might mess up his stool. Did you changed diets for your dog?

Jack when it comes to breaks, usually I do not do anything... but I guess for him doing nothing is kinda stressful too. So I should do some light training, and do what ever to build his confidence, and mine. Nothing that gets the both of us stressed out! Yesterday we tried the box idea hahah it was so funny... my dog seemed like he couldn't believe it was so easy. I am going to use this idea to then teach him how to Pivot! I am not going to add serious training intel monday... I am not even going to try to train in distractions at the moment. Just want to keep everything simple, fun, easy for now.. With play I am going to keep it pretty soft, and short..

Yeah it is not a good idea to give any dog dog anti stress breaks (not all dogs have stress problems) like these because a dog can seriously, seriously, seriously go nuts thats for shure.

[Horace's Mum]

It was fairly obvious Horus was a stress bunny, he couldn't sleep, couldn't be still, couldn't let me out of sight and reacted to literally everything and anything. Bu he is a rescue, and had extreme chronic stress from being kennelled on his own for 18mths even ignoring the stress caused by his abuse in earlier homes.

Clicker training in the house is such a fab way to build a bond and build your dog's confidence - I'm not sure what I would have done without it. But when you are using it to help him chill, keep the work easy, very high rate of reward, and always end on a good note. Try never to ask the dog so much that he can't get it right every time.

As for sounding like a jerk, I'm afraid a lot of us on here know that feeling, and it is just something you have to get used to until such a time as you no longer have to stand up for your dog. If everyone took the time to actually think and learn about dogs, then we would never need to tell them to back off, give space, don't touch, get your dog away - but it isn't going to happen, so you need to be brave enough and confident enough to tell people where to go and what to do. It took me a long time, I am not that kind of person, but now I can either tell people clearly and calmly to call their dog/don't touch etc, or I am able to call Horus away. I spent a long time teaching him how to greet people so no-one ever gets the chance to stress him because he takes himself away from them. As far as dogs go, sometimes the best I can ask for is for him to walk past without lunging, sometimes he completely ignores them, it really depends on the dog.

Would be worth training a "go behind" command as part of your clicker work so when strange dogs approach you can send you dog behind your legs which helps them to feel safe and makes it easier for you to stand firmly against the other dog and tell it to get lost.

[jacksdad]

Yeah it is not a good idea to give any dog dog anti stress breaks (not all dogs have stress problems) like these because a dog can seriously, seriously, seriously go nuts thats for shure.

remember...it all depends on the dog, the current situation, the dogs progress, etc, etc.

teaching your dog to settle and be calm and relaxed will be just as important as helping him have out lets for his stress/energy by doing training/games/play .

The key is to be flexible to your dogs needs.

[reactive123gsd]

Oh you guys are so right! Today we had our first results! *dancing* Wohoo!

My dog Joker

(I finally say his name because I was afraid that I wouldn't remain long on this forum, but I love these forums so I am planning on staying... you guys are so cool!)

yesterday after the 5 walks we had he was pretty much being sooo quiet.. it was weird.. no pacing.. no panting... wasn't even messing with the cats. I thought wow that is weird... Could it be because he having a anti stress detox.. who knows? I even tried to do simple clicker exercises, but he was not even focused on anything!
This morning I woke up NO WHINING SLEEPING LIKE A BABY (figure of speech) , and when I went to get him out of his "area" the first thing he did was rolling (you know that happy "rolling" that the do when they feel good I can't remember if there is a term for it). Never in my life I have seen him wake up like that. I was like wow! Horace it is like how you said with Horus it seemed like he woke up bright, and happy! On our first walk he didn't even pull he stayed underthreshold allmost the whole time there was only one case that we have found a lady out of nowhere with her dog we came so close.. he start barking at the dog.. but imediatly I gave him lots of treats to get a distance.. in just 4 yards away from the dog Joker stoped reacting, and gave calming signals! WoW! WoW! WOW! There was no jumping, no tugging, no stress, nothing! I made shure to walk on streets where there where less traffic of people, dogs, and ect. I was looking everywhere for everything, at a certain point one guy had his pitbull off leash on the middle of the sidewalk.. fortunatly someone told me to watch out for the dog (because I wasn't able to see it) so I crossed the street.. the owner on the other side yelled at me "Don't worry she is a girl!". I didn't even respond because I was in "concentration mode". We ranned into one lady that went up in Joker's face to tell him how cute he was. Instead of telling the lady off I kept on clicking if Joker remained still, and the lady left... with no problems.

I am sad to hear about Horus' life.. he is soo lucky to have you! I can imagine how terrible it had to be for him. When you rescued him was he afraid of the outside world? I have seen dogs that have been closed into cages for such a long time.. right when they get out they are afraid of everything, sounds, noises, pavements, smells, lights, food, everything! I remember seeing this one dog in such a bad shape that he seriously created another world within himself. It was really sad it was like there no way to get past that bubble he made.

[reactive123gsd]

Well not to be too anoying, because you guys have answered alot of my answers, and everything but today on our second walk of 15 mins we past around the corner green lot where the "attack" happened... Joker was really calm intel we got there.. he started whinning, he was glassy eyed, panting, looking down, started to sniff everywhere, nose was dripping, tounge liking, body lowered..... then after 3 mins we left to get back home he started to walk ahead, jump foward, react to everything... lucky us hardly anyone around today (which is weird).. but with calmness (and the help of a clicker) we came back home okay he had one of thoes "zoom" like moments for about 10 second, and then he got back to normal! But yeah Jack was right you can't take things to lightly! Do you guys think the rest of the day should be rest, or should I still take our 10 mins walks?

[Ari_RR]

Not sure about the rest of the day, i would just watch him, and follow your gut feel.
But try to avoid that place if possible, dogs remember places. He may feel uneasy just being there.

[jacksdad]

Not sure about the rest of the day, i would just watch him, and follow your gut feel.
But try to avoid that place if possible, dogs remember places. He may feel uneasy just being there.

Yep, agree.

[emmabeth]

Just catching up on this - wow you are doing brilliantly (even if you think actual progress isn't so great, look at what you have learned and what your dog is telling you and what you are 'hearing' from him now!).

Less really IS more - I think you need to remind yourself of that over and over because you do seem, in the best possible way, to be quite a full on 'do it, do it nowww' person - so for example, the walk where you went back to where the 'incident' occurred - 3 minutes was too long. Looking back you can see that within seconds he was stressed, and that stress had an effect on the rest of the walk. So - I wouldn't take him there again for some time, but the NEXT time he gives you that sort of response - you respond IMMEDIATELY by taking him away, fast, and rewarding him.

You will find over time that you learn how to respond, and how to bring his stress levels down faster - he will learn in time how to settle and calm himself too, so that will help a lot.

On a day when you have had a negative experience like that, then the best thing to do is make the rest of the day a rest day - only take the walks necessary to go potty (if you need to do that), and just focus on calm things, things he finds EASY (so games/trainign that he finds a total walkover and things he finds calming/relaxing such as something to chew on).

Definitely keep a journal (you can do it here or you can do it on paper) of what you do, your progress and your thoughts at the end of each day on what was good, what wasn't, w hat you learned and what you would change next time - it really does help!

[Horace's Mum]

Absolutely fantastic!!! I knew you could do it, just needed enough reassurance to be confident in doing it. Never ever apologise for asking for more advice either, we will spew advice and reassurance as much as anyone wants if you are willing to try new things and listen, which you have proved you are!! I am so proud of you

Here begins your journey to really understanding your dog. You have started to see the small signs that say he is unhappy, and you have realised the difference when you ignore them. Remember that, and take it forward. There is no shame in making mistakes, as long as you always learn from them - as you have done with your trip to the stressful place. If you are not sure what lesson is there to be learned, do what you have done and post about it on here so we can help you understand it. No question is too silly or small.

I am so glad you have seen what a nice dog you have finally, hold on to that because you will have good days and bad days, and sometimes bad weeks, but you need to build a little photo album of positive memories to keep you going through the harder times.

But most of all WELL DONE!!!!

[reactive123gsd]

Awe thankies guys your are all so sweet! Yeah I finally understand that my dog isn't a crazy dog... you know I have met lots of people that told me "how dominate he is".. I had a trainer telling me he is mentally crazy dog (I was sooo offended when that happened.). I had trainers telling me what I do was wrong (when I was right). I had a vet tell me how wrong I was with doing counter conditioning, and telling me once again how Joker is dominate because I was spoiling him.. ect..ect..instead he is nervous wreck. I have lots of people telling me lots of diffrent things. Making my head so confused... "You can't let the dog sniff the ground".. "You can't let the dog walk ahead of you"... like lots of you can't do this, and that. If dogs where just soooo evil why do we have them? You know what I mean? Anyways it was seriously driving me crazy, and making me loose my patience.. I have the book The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. Which makes me understand lots of things, but when you have so many people telling me how wrong was this, and that. I didn't know what to believe any more! I am happy that there is you guys here to help.

One last questions.. I have read on one blog how it is important to not make training too easy for stressed dog. That dogs can learn how to deal with stress through clicker training. That making it too easy, might not help him in the long run. It says to start the day of with the first clicker session really easy, and then durring the next session make it little harder (allways keeping high reward rate), and rotate from easy sessions to hard. So he learns that after a session (various sessions I imagine) the little stress he went through to concentrate, and learn is nothing. Does this make sense..? Like stress can be a big distraction in training I have noticed..

Plus I was wanting to know sience we are working on calmness, loose lead, and we are taking really really really short walks how can I teach my dog various tricks in distractions? Do I just work in the house, backyard, and my neighborhood for now. Then while we move on to other streets, when he seems like he is not in a stressed state.. we work on other tricks? Just take one street at a time as distractions? I wish I can take him to the park for a little offleash run, but I can't even get to the nearest bus stop without him stressing out, becoming nervous, start staring at everything, leaping, and start zooming. For example today we went out on the street, and imediatly when people passed by he started to hop ahead, looking like his but was on fire. It is weird.. Now he gets so excited when he trains with me that he gets easily fustrated too because it is consider his play time for now. When I ask him to do a new trick do I just keep it to a 3 times rule? For example I am working on bow (for months now), and I allure him to a bow I just allure him three times and that all with out over doing it. Then keep stuff he allready knows just for play to not get him over worked up?

[reactive123gsd]

Well I am back again to write.... more questions *sigh* *sigh* *sigh*-- Well I was watching a video of kikopup on youtube on counter conditioning. She said some tips allways about rest.. she says if your dog has a bad day.. like if my dog is lunging out to another dog. Which has happened three times this morning at a huge distance (so today we had another set back, and I didn't realise it intel I watch that video), and when I took him out again on the walk he was much nervous.. anxious.. ect... (so we pretty much lasted 5 mins on the walk before it was getting too much). A lady past by near him, and you could tell that he was also getting aroused by her.. so I guess the mixture of stress, anxiousness, and arousal isn't good. So I guess he will just pretty much rest for the rest of the day (I will just take him out constantly to poo, and pee).. no training.. I guess I will just do some easy impulse control exercises which he is really good at. I am just afraid that if he is getting to little exercise, and that is going to make him more stressed too. I don't know if I should play with him or not today, because if I play with him I am afraid we can get too rowdy, and it could upper his stress hormones....

[Horace's Mum]

So much to write, and I don't have time just now, but just so you don't feel ignored.....

Regarding tricks while distracted - you need to teach the tricks to as close to 100% perfection as you can in the home, anywhere and everywhere in the home, when he is not expecting it and when he is, and then the same out in the garden, before you can really use them when outside. Once you have them this good, they become a distraction fro a stress trigger - so he sees another dog, you give him the command to spin, and because you are a super dog trainer ( ) he listens to you, refocusses on to you instead of the other dog, and said dog can walk past while your boy is busy spinning, sitting, bowing or whatever else. Does that make sense? So for now you can't really practise anything outside that isn't fully proofed inside.

One tip I found when doing this is that moving tricks are better distraction than static ones - so spinning both ways, close heelwork, pivoting at your side, all that kind of stuff works better than begging, bowing, standing on two legs etc. They also have the advantage of tying in with calming signals - asking for a spin helps to break eye contact and makes your dog turn away, which is a calming signal, asking for a close pivot allows you to turn him away with the same effect. To begin with always ask for the spin AWAY from the trigger, to make it easier to comply. Once you have that focus again it doesn't matter which way you do it.

[jacksdad]

when you have so many people telling me how wrong was this, and that. I didn't know what to believe any more! I am happy that there is you guys here to help.

Want my thoughts on this...Good, glad you asked

You can trust what Jean says, what Patricia McConnell says and at the risk of sounding like I have an inflated ego...you can trust us here too.

There is a LOT of out of date and frankly incorrect information still floating around out there and unfortunately a lot of professional dog trainers and even some vets are still passing it on. Joker is NOT "dominate", he isn't crazy, he is just a "teenager" with some fear/anxiety issues. I suspect if he was a true "mentally crazy" dog you would have some very clear but different issues and very possibly not feel safe with him yourself.

The hardest part of helping a dog like Joker if this is your first time, is all the conflicting advice from friends, family, "professionals" etc. Been there, went through it, coming out the other side and people are not questioning me or rolling their eyes at me as much...proof is in the progress my dog has/is making. You will get there too.

On stress. The end goal is to help your dog be able to deal with/handle stress, not protect him from any and all stress for the rest of his life. Stress is apart of life. There is good stress, there is bad stress. but some people and in this case dogs, don't know how to deal with the "bad" stress in their life. The solution is to first try and remove all the stress points from their life that you possibly can. Give them a break, let them calm down, teach them they won't face it alone and when things are to much you will step in and deal with whatever, they don't have to. Then slowly reintroduce the dog to the sources of stress in a way that lets the dog not be overwhelmed and with skills. The "skills" would be those calming signals Horace's Mum mentions and counter conditioning plays into this too by no only changing how the dog feels about a source of stress, but by teaching an alternate behavior for dealing with that stress.

[reactive123gsd]

Horace oh now I get why I am having problems with training ! Now I get it! I have been so obbsessed over trying to teach stuff he doesn't know even in distractions........... I might sound stupid, but no one told me intel now that he has to know a command like 100% everywhere in the house before taking it out in other places! I was watching this one vid where a man ask his dog to do something out of no where, and the dog imediatly responded even if the guy didn't even get up. For example I have noticed if Joker is laying down on the ground doing nothing, and I am sitting if I ask him to do something he looks at me like he didn't understand, but if I call him first, and grab his attention while I am standing he does it.... So I got to start everything over! Stupid me! Earlier this evening I tried to ask him to do vario is tricks in the house, and they where all messed up and Joker doesn't even seem that intrested. I am going to start over forget all the 30 commands badly taught to him, and act like he doesn't know the tricks

Thats a good idea the spin trick! I would have never thought of it! Wow that is a smart idea I am going to make it one of my important tricks!

Jack yeah it is pretty much impossible to have a stress free life (especially for us), and some stress is good for him. What is important that you guys helped me open my eyes on the situation. I seriously think we would have gone down hill.. if I hadn't wrote on this forum. I am much more relax too, and I can't believe it.

[Horace's Mum]

You don't sound stupid at all, it is one of the most common mistakes people make, thinking that dogs generalise ie once they know sit, they know it everywhere. It does get easier, but to begin with you might well need to almost teach everything from scratch in each new situation, and gradually build up the distractions.

It is the classic problem of dog owners who come to classes and say "but he does it perfectly at home!!"

At the end of the day the tricks are a tool - you wouldn't expect to turn up at a garage and fix a car with an owner watching you and tapping their foot unless you had already learned what each tool is, and then how to use is in the engine, and then how to use all of them to fix a whole engine, so don't expect your dog to be handed a new toolbox when he is under pressure and know how to use it!!