Loose Lead Walking gentle ideas for a reactive gsd?

[reactive123gsd]

Sarah83 I am happy that I am not the only one that has a dog/pup with problems with pulling! Need to create a club!

[reactive123gsd]

I was wanting to know what would you guys think a typical week should be like working on this problem for now? Like wake up early at 6 take him out train then take him out again at 11...ect ect???

[jacksdad]

This morning I took him out on a quick walk outside for 15 mins both of us where pretty relaxed the whole time(in 30 mins I will take him out again).

Excellent.

The thing I am afraid of is that he might even learn to walk well but the moment he gets out of a certain environment to go somewhere he starts to get so excited where he starts going ahead again.

Ok, this is to be expected. Remember dogs are very context sensitive. learning to walk "perfect" in your neighborhood does not automatically translate to walking "perfect" at a new park or neighborhood when starting out. this is why you often have to start from the beginning in new environments and be very consistent. in time your dog learns that walking loose lead and not pulling ahead is just how you walk no where you are.

If I take a walk with my husband he gets so aroused that he goes crazy.

Again, a bit expected. my dog does the same when my wife comes along. again, you just need to take things back to the "beginning" when your husband is with you treat it like day one of training to walk a loose lead. and with time and practice your dog will know that loose lead not pulling is how you walk husband or no husband.

Plus I can't not avoid all triggers because I live in a European city, where people, pigeons, noises everywhere it is never quiet out. There are times where there are less dogs out, but there are always dogs everywhere all the time!

Avoiding all together is the ideal. Not always possible. next best thing is keeping the greatest distance possible. do your best with what you can do.

The idea of taking things slow is sooo hard for me. I love taking him out on walks...... The reason why I wanted a dog is to take him everywhere...

Slow is actually "fast". By taking things slower, keeping greater distances etc. then your dog will actually progress "faster" because he will be learning in the least possible stress educing environment. Even IF you dog was NOT having reactive issues, the first 2 years of a dog's life can be a challenge. Dogs do NOT come already programed to know what each of us expects of them. and with puppies they, like humans go through development stages that sometimes require taking things back a step and repeating training.

Like I said I hope this is a age thing, even if I would like to solve it as soon as possible.

It is possible that some of your issues will fade over the next 6 to 12 months, particularly if you are very mindful of his thresholds and don't rush things and put him in situations that he can't yet handled. Not talking about what you can't control, but what you can. If at all possible try and not focus on "soon as possible". Your dog is it's own individual and will move at the pace he will move. you can't rush it. Honestly, but going "slow" you will get there "fast". hope that makes sense.

I wish I can be a person that does not care if my dog pulls me or not.

you should care. nothing wrong with that. the solution though is to work on loose lead training. If we haven't shared this link already, we should have.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=858 this is a great and very effective method for teaching a dog to walk loose lead.

Do you think that if he gets use to be calm on walks over time his arousal goes away on his own? That he becomes less aroused to stimuli if he is constantly introduced to thoes stimuli in low doses, then start upping the notch little by little.. ) I don't know if it is clear what I am trying to say... I am so tired at the moment *yawns*

yes, continuing to mature will help to a point. But you have got to keep his "ex poser" to his triggers (stimuli) to lower "levels" than what causes him to react as much as possible. this is the only way he will learn to remain calm. if he is pushed to far, to fast and is going "reactive" more often than calm, that will be the learned and reinforced response.

[reactive123gsd]

ARgh... you guys will not imagine what happened I am seriously crying right now... I am so fustrated...
Well we where on the sidewalk and we turned onto a little green area on a street corner (we where on our first 15 min walk o the day). I wasn't able to see that there was anyone, but out of the blue a offleashed huge mixed breed dog came in our direction heading straight to my dog(owner is a 80 year old .. can you believe it?)... barking like crazy in attack mode.... I dropped the leash, because I didn't know what to do at that moment. Then there goes my dog escaping in the middle of the street (I shouldn't have dropped the leash I know)! I never been so scared in my life. My heart stopped when I sawn him running into the street in flight mode. I thought he was going to die from being hit from a car, and that I was going to cause an accident to someone in a car. The aggressive dog kept on going towards him, intel at a certain point I ran and got into the middle (not a good idea either) ready to hit the old women's dog... I am against hitting dogs, never hit a dog in my life... but in that situation I was so scared my natural instincts was to hit him. The dog got so scared at me (weird because dogs that are so out of it, get so in another mental level that they do not snap out of it) Of course the old women didn't do anything she kept standing there... it was a miracle that she could still hold herself up (sounds mean but true). Fortunatly I was able to get my beloved dog, and imediatly left. My dog was so nervous, barking, stressed, and ect. Poor thing look like he was the one who started the problem... The women kept on saying "They where just playing..." . I am so mad, upset, fustrated, stressed, amd sad at the moment.

My worries is that my dog is in the fear period at the moment.. I am afraid that he traumatized over this (I made shure to ignore my dog afterwards to not reinforce is anxious behavior). He allready been attacked onced by 7 stray dogs in a park, that torn him open (I think that also caused his reactivity to get bad too), and now this.....

Poor doggie..

Now it is rest for him for 2 days straight, no training, no walks, no play, only chew bones, and time in the back yard to sniff, poop, and pee. I don't know if I should keep him on the leash while I am in the backyard.. Little by little durring the week I will start adding training back in, play, and our 10-15 mins outings back in the picture, and all the other work we need to work on. I hope he is not going to become a crazy dog in the mean time. Seriously the past week we have been snowed in, and could not even hardly move from the house. Sidewalks, streets, everything was iced. Any ideas to stimulate his mind without stressing him?

Well back to the subject...

Jackdad it makes alot of sense what you have said! If I need to teach him to walk in a new enviroment.. I can get the car/bus take him one place.. walk him for 10 mins get the car/bus again return imediatly home..sounds like a good idea? Unfortunatly I do not have a car usually it takes me hours by foot, or busses to get to one place to the next, so that means I need to start finding rides.

When I take him to my training course, or to the dog trainer he gets there he becomes so reactive, nervous, panicky, zoomy, everything. His emotions seem to become a mixture of everything! He suffers a little seperation anxiety my fault, because I was never told how important for a pup to be on his own.... he was allways around me all the time. At first it was hard, I could not even walk a yard ahead of him with my husband holding him, because he would get so out of it. Now his seperation anxiety is much better.... Only when we are in a new enviroment, or in my training course it gets bad again. My husband does not like walking him together anymore too.... It sucks for my dog to suffer from it. I tried the best to get everything right from the start, and there is soo many things I have miss. Oh I wanted to add that he never suffers from seperation anxiety in the home, could there be link in all this to his other problems due to the enviroment? I would like to do Free Style with him, so it would be great to get to do shows with him but with all these problems he has it is hard to believe he will ever get to a point where he can ever be with me at dog show, and at the same time be calm.

Can someone tell me what could be my biggest mistake with him? What could have probley cause him to be such a nervous, excited, zoomy dog? Like I said I allways worked on training him, exercising him, people can't believe how much time I put into him. I wish I knew the exact mistakes that I have made so when the next time (next time will be intel my dog gets over all his problems) I will not make the same ones! *sigh* Sorry for long long long post...

[reactive123gsd]

Thinks to self *which mental stimulation game will I choose now on the Exercise the Mind... thread.. hmmm which would be a good pick at the moment..... hmmmm*

[Ari_RR]

I am not sure at all that "no walk, no training, etc" is the right thing to do... Why, what will this accomplish other then being bored and building up energy inside with no release?

As for being traumatized.. Well, I don't know, he didn't get hit by a car in the end, all that really happened was a large dog appeared all of a sudden and he ran away. Unfortunately, not an unusual scenario. I think you were traumatized much more then he was, mostly knowing the dangers of being in the middle of the street.

Dropping the leash - if not for the street, this in my opinion is not a bad thing to do in certain cases, for this exact reason - to give him the opportunity to escape if you cannot control the situation and keep the other dog away. The alternative, not being able to run away, may be worse - your dog feeling trapped and attacking the other. But near a busy street with cars, this is a different matter, of course...

But bottom line - don't necessarily project your reaction onto your dog, give him some credit, he may be more resilient than you think he is!

Just my 2 cents

[Ari_RR]

)Fortunately I was able to get my beloved dog, and immediately left..... I am so mad, upset, fustrated, stressed, amd sad at the moment...

Getting out of there immediately - good!!!
Feeling mad, stressed, etc -not so good, dog senses your emotions which does not help her in regaining composure.

[jacksdad]

Oh Boy quite the adventure. I am so sorry this happened though.

Don't beat your self up too bad, you did the best you could in a quick and highly stressful situation. you actually did right jumping between the dogs. there is a BIG difference between getting between two dogs in an active fight and between your dog and a dog that is running all out right at you. While I don't recommend diving between two fighting dogs, you would be surprised how effective becoming a "wall" to an on rushing dog can be. I have done it many times with off leash dogs, as recent as this last weekend in fact. some young hooligan of a dog thought it was great "fun" to charge up to other dogs, if they reacted or tried to defuse the situation he would pin them on their back and bite at their throats. I suspect this dog was either a bully or a very insecure dog in reality. so, he charges right up to Jack and I out of the blue, rare that I don't see this coming but you can't be looking in all directions at all times. your going to get surprised from time to time. any, Jack didn't freak, stood his ground (bless his terrier side sometimes) I immediately moved towards the dog as a wall, he took one look at me and didn't bother us anymore. before we could move on this dog started to assault and harass a poor golden retriever, when it tried to make a second pass at the golden, I moved towards it again like a wall and it ran off. the key is to NOT escalate, don't yell, be calm. soon as the dog backs down so do you. So, again. you did good to be a "wall" for your dog. it works.

As for hitting the other dog....probably not a good idea. BUT don't feel bad for feeling that way. I get it. I have zero desire to hurt another dog, but my dog comes first. I will keep him safe. In 3 years of having Jack I have only gotten physical with 1 dog and only because he had Jack in his mouth. all the other times simply body blocking, "voice of doom" (telling the dog to sit, or go away), pats on the head in as an annoying fashion as I can, but not in a threatening way etc. have all worked much better than getting physical or yelling or otherwise escalating the situation. So again, don't feel bad. you need to protect your dog. your dog comes first since you have to live with the fallout of such encounters.

Oh, and it's ok to have comforted your dog. It won't reinforce any anxious behavior. how to have done this might have been some nice calm pets in long strokes down his back, assuming that is something he likes. Or getting some safe distance then asking for some fun but simple behaviors like target your hand, look at you, ask him to shake etc. anything to change the subject and get some fun and safe interactions from you that earn some food rewards. In some situations I have even been known to pickup and carry my dog, which I realize isn't really an option for you. But the point is, I do what I can to change the "subject" and feeling from anxious/stressed/scary to something good, fun, relaxed, safe.

Rest for the next couple days sounds like an excellent idea.

as for new locations. if driving somewhere isn't an option, not a big deal. start by just walking part way down a new block that you haven't been down before.

Separation anxiety can actually be triggered by leaving a puppy without preparing it to be left alone. But then on the flip side, you could do everything right and still end up with a dog who struggles with SA. Don't under estimate genetics in all this. If when you and your husband walk the dog together he doesn't like you walking off, start by walking side by side but with your husband holding the leash. then after a week or two, walk just a little ahead for a few second, drop back, then move forward a few seconds, then drop back. build it slowly, only by doing this will you move forward "fast".

Try not to focus on what you wish you could do with your dog, agility, free style etc. focus for now on what you need to do to help your dog over come it's anxiety. Even with a perfectly "normal" dog, there is no guarantee that you could do any of those other things. they may or may not click with your dog regardless of any issues or not having any issues. And while there is no way to know what can be achieved with your dog at this time, the future isn't always bleak or hopeless. there are some on this board with dogs that make your's sound down right normal and they have gone on to do things that they never thought would be possible when there were at the same point you are now. So, try and relax, learn to enjoy the dog in front of you, learn to be satisfied with what it can give you today. you have no idea what tomorrow will bring so try not and worry about the future..says the guy who is always thinking 10 steps ahead so I know this is easier said than done.

[jacksdad]

I am not sure at all that "no walk, no training, etc" is the right thing to do... Why, what will this accomplish other then being bored and building up energy inside with no release?

It's actually not a bad idea. how far you take "no training" would of course depend on the dog. If the dog is actually traumatized, then it may just want to sleep or lay there and not be bothered or look for quite, calm, relaxing activities. again, all depends on the dog.

As for being traumatized.. Well, I don't know, he didn't get hit by a car in the end, all that really happened was a large dog appeared all of a sudden and he ran away. Unfortunately, not an unusual scenario. I think you were traumatized much more then he was, mostly knowing the dangers of being in the middle of the street.

Don't ever underestimate how something like this can traumatize a fearful dog. better to assume more traumatized than may really be and switch to a stress management mode and do things that address a possibly stressed out and traumatized dog. I know with Jack there was a time when something no where nearly as "exciting/stressful/scary" as what reactive123gsd describes would set him back for days.

But bottom line - don't necessarily project your reaction onto your dog, give him some credit, he may be more resilient than you think he is!

valid point, but I also think it's very early in reactive123gsd's journey to help her dog, and it's better to not under estimate the effect something like this might have had on her dog.

[Ari_RR]

Right.. Better err on the side of caution and assume the worst case scenario.. Safer that way. Makes perfect sense.

What about dropping the leash if can't keep the other dog away? I have to say I am in favor, unless there is a street with cars.. But my dog is not fearful though, and in most cases it turns out that the other dog indeed just wanted to play, and after being startled initially, Ari accepts the invitation and engages in a game.. And if not - I am still near by and can intervene. I just feel that not being restrained by the leash actually gives him more confidence to deal with the situation and the other dog.. But, again, he is not fearful to begin with, quite the opposite in fact, perhaps overconfident.. With fearful dogs - don't know... Does keeping them restrained help?

[Nettle]

I would caution against dropping the leash as a coping mechanism. What was done in the heat of the moment is not criticised, but it is a bad thing to do in future because a trailing leash can trap your dog and the other dog can then attack. The leash rattling behind the dog can also really frighten it. As for the dog running loose in traffic, well, no more needs to be said about that.

In the future - constant vigilance. You are taller and you can see further. Watch out the whole time for what is happening ahead, behind and to the sides. This doesn't have to be overt: it can be done perfectly casually and is a useful life skill, with a dog or by yourself.

Occasionally - especially at first - you may get caught out by loose dogs. It is surprising just how a determined human can deflect a loose dog. Get your dog behind or to the side, make yourself big, use the Voice of Doom. Even the worst-trained mutts usually react to SIT said very firmly and accompanied by a hard glare. As you become more alert to your surroundings and your own dog telling you things, so the loose-dog scenario gets easier because you will see them in good time and be able to take whatever action is necessary.

[reactive123gsd]

Good morning guys!

How are you all? Yes it could have been that I have been more traumatized than the dog! I went home imediatly, and for the rest of the day I was so exausted that the only thing I did was write to you guys. I just wanted to sleep all day, and for every little thing I felt my head boil, and muscle tense up! I couldn't talk, I speak two languages so I was not even able to express myself speaking my second language. I talked like if I was drunk or something. Plus the whole time I was thinking of the dog worrying what if.... what if....

The dog is just going crazy not doing anything.. He never barked in his life, never caused any problems in the house... Well this morning he started to try to "dig" the tile floor, and is starting to bark at everything (even at victoria's podcast)! I guess he is not used to not moving. I think a non stress pause would be good, for atleast for me. My husband is bugging me two for little things so he is not helping me out on relaxing either...

I can tell you after what happened yesterday my doggie was soooo nervous, whining, barking like crazy, just out of it. Like Jack said I am too early getting into my dog training journey.. so I rather not take what happened yesterday to lightly. I don't know... tonight I might take him out at 12 o'clock the only hour of the day which is "considered" quiet, and do a easy easy easy easy clicker session (hand targets he is really good at ***). This morning I took him in the backyard hid cups full of kibble in the yard so he can find them, and I gave him a few toys to "destroy in the house" (I never do usually toys are for training I never leave him anything out). We where about 30 mins in the backyard.. I didn't do anything outside I just wanted to relax..I read a book for my dog training course. So I was pretty much studying. I was reading this book called "Stress in Dogs" by Martina Scholz and Clarissa von Reinhardt.... really good book... Reading the book there are various signs of stress in dogs... lots of them I noticed them in my dog.. (I am trying to get a idea what can be a cause of his leash problem)... leash tugging, nose dripping, restlessness, confusion (sometimes it seems like he can't remember even the easiest commands)...

It could be that his zoomies durring the walks where he gets to a point where he "tugs" "leaps", and "run ahead" could be because of stress, and all the triggers at the same time. You know I thought sience he was used to the city ever sience he was a pup he was ready for it all, and he was able to adapt to it. It could be his age, it could be I have pushed him too hard, with training, too too long walks, play play play, that he never learns how to calm down other than in the house. For example when I take him out in the backyard.. I usually take him out to play.. so he needs to learn that when he is out in the backyard it doesn't mean that "excitement" switch should be turn on. My teacher for example was explaining me that her dog (Border Collie) is able to switch on, and off. If she is at home, walking around, in class she is calm stays put, sleep, the moment that she says "Ready" her Border Collie lights up full of excitement, and is ready to play, train, work (is a sheep dog, does agility, free style, obbedience..). For shure it was good up bringing, genes... and the ability to also let the dog be a dog at the same time. Plus she doesn't care if her Border pulls her or not on the leash she doesn't stress about it because she says she knows that the moment she needs the dog by her side the dog will be by her side.

Yeah I never wanted to blame genetics because lots of irresponsible people just claim that genetics is the reason why they have crazy dogs, but in my case it could be because (even my SUPER AMAZING dog trainer teacher told me that she thinks it is genetics).. He was given to us a present (friends knew that I dreamed of a GSD for years, and years), and they got him at a really bad dog breeder. Where afterwards I learned that this terrible "breeder" breeded dog's with the dog's mothers, dogs with dysplasia, heard of stories of dogs being starved, pups are left in cages not socialized prepaired for handling,.... these guys even had a kennel that has been closed down... strangely in this kennel there where lots of gsds.. list goes on. I can't believe how bad people are! A true breeder would breed a gsd to be stable mentally, and healthy. There are good breeders out there, it is terrible that there are bad ones that make the really good ones look bad too. Poor dogs victims of greed, and money.

I allways thought that doing free style would make him happy, it wasn't because I wanted a trophey or something it was because I was wanting an activity to do with him to bond... I need to start focusing on just having, a happy, normal dog, that lives a normal life. Then if we are able we will think of the next step afterwards.

There has been trainers that told me to push him in every situation possible, everyday force him to get to handle them, it seems like it is not working... So I am going to do what you guys say to take it slowly.... and I am going to post everything on this thread. Tonight I am going to write a training plan.

Ari, Nettle when it comes to the leash dropping... it was a automatic response because it was so out of the blue... I know (because I read a book from Turid Rugaas) that it is not good that a dog feels traped, and need to be able to escape.. but in that situation it wasn't a good thing that I dropped it I should have blocked the dog like Jack said. I could have risk my dog dieing or someone else having a really bad car accident..... and I could have ruin my life! Nettle with the trailing leash you are right.. I guess if I was not near a road if I unhooked his leash it would have been a good choice.

Nettle I am allways looking out for dogs, it is crazy... I have to look out for dogs, cats, pigeons, various of other triggers, broken beer bottle on the ground, used needles dump on the ground, holes in the streets, dog poop everywhere on sidewalks, cars parked on the sidewalks, snow that has iced and no one cleaned the streets.. I try my best. Imagine New York, but with smaller streets, everything attached people everywhere, cars everywhere, and ect.. You can't see past a corner, and it is not easy to cross a street if I do see someone afar with there dogs.

Well I am going to take some Bach flowers... *drop* *drop* they usually work everytime!

[jacksdad]

On taking breaks. do you completely do nothing or do you do light training, play games or what? it really depends on the dog. For my dog, sometimes it means literally doing nothing and letting him either sleep in his crate or where ever he feels safe and comfortable. Including plastered to me while I watch tv and he snores next to me. Other times we play "box game", this is where he gets to "do things" with a box and earn clicks and treats. put paw on the box, touch box with nose, flip box, sit on box, sit in box etc. other times it might be "hunting" he starts in a sit/stay where he can't see where I hid 4 treats then on cue he is released to find them. both these things work his brain and tire him out.

So when you take breaks after something like yesterday, let your dog guide you a bit in what it needs.

I would consider leaving a toy or toys available to play with on his own laying around. save that super special toy for training purposes, but if you can, if you don't already have them, get some "not so special" toys that he enjoys playing with to self entertain. rotate them so they stay new and "exciting" if necessary.

acknowledging a genetic piece to the puzzle doesn't mean you just throw up your hands and do nothing, which sounds like you already know. but it does help set expectations and bring to focus what will or won't be possible or appropriate for your dog.

On the leash dropping. Yes, having that trapped feeling while on leash is part of why dogs like yours react the way they do, but that issue is minor and the lessor of two "evils" in a situation like you were in yesterday. Everyone made it home alive and safe. that is what matters. don't beat your self up over it. If I had a dollar for every mistake I made learning to help Jack, I could retire.

[Nettle]

If I had a dollar for every mistake I made learning to help Jack, I could retire.

You could say that for me too (obviously different dogs from Jack) None of us was born knowing this stuff, and if I can save some people from making the mistakes I made, that's a good enough reason for me staying on the Board.

[Horace's Mum]

When Horus came to me, he was seriously hyperactive, I could walk him for hours and he still couldn't settle, I could train for literally hours at a time, it was crazy. But gradually I realised that he needed more than anything else to learn how to settle and chill. I couldn't use a crate because that was a source of stress to him, and because of his deafness I had to stay in sight and still too. So I taught him to lie down and stay, so I could basically make him stay put in one place. I also every couple of weeks had a day when we literally did nothing - the only walk we did was round the block morning and night for bowels, but other than that he went in the garden to pee, or stayed in the house. I more or less ignored all his behaviour - I didn't ignore HIM, just the behaviour, he still got cuddles (although he wouldn't accept many at that stage), so any pacing, scratching, whining, yapping, nudging, it all got ignored. Eventually he would heave a big sigh and settle down, and then sleep the entire evening - it usually took until about 6 or 7pm to get there, but he always slept well at the end. The next day he woke up bright and happy again, and we could progress with training.

Often these days would be following a stressful incident such as yours, or sometimes they would be after a hard training session with other dogs. Whenever we went away, we had a couple of days off when we got back. When we started competing in agility, he had 3-4days off after a days competition, sometimes a week if we were away for a weekend. I always knew when he needed it because he would get grumpy, snappy and more reactive to me in the house again, seemingly making backward steps. And I always knew when he was ready to go again because he would wake up with his smile again and be relaxed when we were out walking.

A lot of what you describe reminds me of Horus, and if you hadn't already come to the conclusion yourself I was going to suggest that your boy is a lot more stressed than you might realise. Some of his craziness is likely due to stress and adrenalin, and not so much that he needs tiring out with walks etc. Teaching them how to be calm is as vital, if not more vital, as teaching them obedience.

It may be worth having a look at something called Stress-less - it is a magnesium supplement to help with longterm stress, and has worked very well for us. It doesn't aim to calm your dog down as much as help your dog to cope with the physical effects of stress, which may in turn cause more stress and discomfort. Google it and have a read.

So if you can, find a day or two that you can do nothing in, and the pair of you settle down in front of the tv other than essential walks. Keep these to a bare minimum. You might find that it just gives you a little leeway and enables you both to move on and forwards with your training. Definitely do not keep pushing him, he will not cope.

I would stress to anyone else reading this that this is very much a management technique for highly anxious and stressed dogs - I don't advocate doing nothing with your average dog because you will end up with a bored and destructive dog. But sometimes stressed dogs need a holiday, and staying in a house that is "safe" for a day or so can really help.