ABC or Karen Pryor...??

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Pol
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Joined:Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:04 pm
ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by Pol » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:00 pm

Has anyone completed, or known someone who has, courses with either Animal Behavior College or the Karen Pryor Academy?
ABC seems more practical to do and seems more reasonably priced, but I don't know...

I live in rural Northern WI and want to do something like this.....

jacksdad
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Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by jacksdad » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:46 pm

I would personally not used ABC due to this from their training philosophy page.

http://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/tr ... osophy.asp

[/quote]
.....Animal Behavior College (ABC) believes there are many different types of training methods that work. While the ABC Curriculum primarily focuses on and encourages the use of positive reinforcement training techniques, we also provide our students with an overall education on correction and punishment. Although our bias is toward the use of positive reinforcement, we believe instruction which incorporates a variety of training methods and ideologies will provide the most comprehensive education for our students. [/quote]

There is nothing wrong with understanding the hows and why of punishment based methods so you can clearly explain/understand why they aren't the best way or why they cause problems etc. But the above is way to close to an endorsement of aversive methods for my taste.

also for me, there is a bit too much hyping of their size and cost. which I suspect isn't as cheap as they say IF you can't pay cash up front. They also seemed very geared to qualifying you to work in a petco store, which isn't necessarily a horrible thing, but your focus will naturally be the absolute basics for "normal dogs" in a group class.

For me, if I was to spend money on a dog training school, I would be looking at either Karen's or Jean's schools.

Jean's school http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/
Karen's school https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/

They are going to cost a bit more even cash, but I think you will get a better education from them. I would have to dig a bit more into Karen's school to get a better feel for how broad her curriculum is, but I do know if you want to know more than just the basics in order to work in a Petco (see the ABC site to understand this more), Jean's school will better prepare you to not only teach people to train their "normal" dogs, but you will also have at least a basic understanding of how to approach dogs with "issues" that need more than just sit, stay, down type stuff.

Just my personal (emphasize personal) opinion.

kimspetsitting4u
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Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by kimspetsitting4u » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:27 am

I have talked to two different trainers this past week about starting up my own dog training buiss... One, Julie with Out N' About Dog Training a VSDT recommend the Karen Pryor not ABC she said something along the lines of in her opinion ABC didn't offer as much information as KP did...I talked with another trainer who said don't do any of them, her opinion was that they were just money making scams...BUT as someone who is already a dog trainer with PetSmart i'm looking to maybe do KP...I think it offers more and is better b/c she only deals with +R...I live out in San Diego CA and after talking to my friend who went through ABC and seeing what she was learning...I really think KP is the better one...We might be able to ask Victoria :)
*up date! Just heard back from another trainer that I contacted (they are all sooo nice!) she said to go with KP, and gave me the link for Nan Author http://www.wholedogtraining.com/
Last edited by kimspetsitting4u on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OnceInAWeil
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Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by OnceInAWeil » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:48 am

I am finishing up an ABC certification right now and while I think they have a lot of good information, after reading Karen Pryor and books about reactive dogs I completely abandoned any notion of corrections. I think Karen Pryor has a much better grasp of training concepts than whoever wrote the ABC curriculum. Hell, they even still recommend "relationship exercises" designed to make your dog think you are the leader...these include things like going through doorways and eating first. I am taking my final right now and in order to pass, I am going to have to answer some essay questions against what I currently believe. In the feedback section, I suggested that they remove some of this information.

gwd
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Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by gwd » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:24 pm

OnceInAWeil wrote: Hell, they even still recommend "relationship exercises" designed to make your dog think you are the leader...these include things like going through doorways and eating first.
i actually have to do this........

it's not about being 'leader' or anything, it's all about keeping the excitement level at 8ish rather than 11 (spinal tap!)

when boy dog amps up too much, girl dogs seems obligated to be the fun police. she grabs his hock, shakes it, or grabs his ears. ...... i'm always sensitive on managing situations.

if i'm loading the dogs up, boy dog can get so excited that his self control vanishes. ..........charging to the back of the jeep, spinning excitedly, and that high pitched bark or squealing. .........girl dog will then do her thing. .....when boy's self control is gone in those moments, he can react to her being a little jerk to him.

to break this pattern, i had for awhile been loading them separately. however, i found that if i just gave a back, wait, walked out first, and then gave my release word, that kept boy dogs excitement at a low enough level that she didn't feel any need to go for his hocks.

i think if it in terms of simmer, boil, rolling boil, and boiling over. ............peace between the two dogs is maintained by keeping excitement below the boiling over. .........and, situation dependent, under roiling boil.
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Erica
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Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by Erica » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:05 pm

I think it's more the reasoning behind it than the behavior itself. I have our dogs wait at the doorway, and Ami and Zeus as well. It's about safety for them, though - if Marble and Opal charged out of the door every time it opened...well, our yard's not fenced in, so it'd be troublesome. With Ami and Zeus it's more for greetings - if they charged out of the door, it'd be very scary to newcomers!

If you have horrible allergies and don't let your dog up on the bed for that reason, well, that's all well and good. If you want your dog to cuddle with you (and your dog wants to) but you feel you shouldn't let them on the bed because then they'd think they were top dog...
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14

jacksdad
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Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by jacksdad » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:02 pm

kimspetsitting4u wrote:I have talked to two different trainers this past week about starting up my own dog training buiss... One, Julie with Out N' About Dog Training a VSDT recommend the Karen Pryor not ABC she said something along the lines of in her opinion ABC didn't offer as much information as KP did...I talked with another trainer who said don't do any of them, her opinion was that they were just money making scams...
This trainer is half right....but is also wrong at the same time. You HAVE to do your home work. The dog training field isn't regulated, there isn't an accepted standards body "governing" things. it's a bit of a wild west out there. The scams and out of date is still VERY predominate out there. People like Jean Donaldson and Karen Pryor are trying to do something about that with their schools. And in my opinion their schools are not scams. depending on the person may not be necessary, but they aren't scams.

Some people learn better outside an "official school" like environment. they do better with self study, attending things like clicker expo, watching dvds, and getting hands on experience. others need a good school to jump start them. each of us is different in how we learn.

The purpose of a school is to prevent reinventing the wheel. Pass on lessons learned, best practices, how to study and learn etc. A good "learn to be dog trainer" school will do that. And right now, based on all that I know to date...Jean and Karen's schools are the one's that measure up.

I haven't looked in a while, but my memory is that while both schools will have some overlap, they do have different focuses. So be sure to really read what each is offering and then decide how it fits with your current goals and needs.

I would challenge the trainer who says they are all scams to qualify that. What specifically lead to this conclusion? What does this person think about Jean and Karon, what they are teaching? Is this trainer up to date and understands even the basics of what is in Karen's book? Does this trainer do continuing education? see what that person has to say. they might have some valid points to consider, but they could also turn out to be blowing hot air. you won't know until you question.

jacksdad
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Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by jacksdad » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:11 pm

OnceInAWeil wrote:I am finishing up an ABC certification right now and while I think they have a lot of good information, after reading Karen Pryor and books about reactive dogs I completely abandoned any notion of corrections. I think Karen Pryor has a much better grasp of training concepts than whoever wrote the ABC curriculum.
My memory from when I compared schools. Karen's focuses on how to teach your dog to do X. how the learning happens, reinforcement schedules, how to break it down in to small steps and more. Jeans school is more about behavior, but does cover how to's of basic training. Both schools are probably (I say probably because I haven't gone through either, going based on the books written by both people and their reputation) worth the money. you will learn cool stuff from both. But if you want to work with fearful and reactive type dogs, I would urge giving Jean's school a look.

you might be interested in going to clicker expo this January 2013. It's in San Francisco, which isn't too far from you compared to say Connecticut in march 2013.

http://www.clickertraining.com/clickerexpo

OnceInAWeil
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Location:AZ, USA

Re: ABC or Karen Pryor...??

Post by OnceInAWeil » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:28 pm

Erica wrote:I think it's more the reasoning behind it than the behavior itself. I have our dogs wait at the doorway, and Ami and Zeus as well. It's about safety for them, though - if Marble and Opal charged out of the door every time it opened...well, our yard's not fenced in, so it'd be troublesome. With Ami and Zeus it's more for greetings - if they charged out of the door, it'd be very scary to newcomers!

If you have horrible allergies and don't let your dog up on the bed for that reason, well, that's all well and good. If you want your dog to cuddle with you (and your dog wants to) but you feel you shouldn't let them on the bed because then they'd think they were top dog...
Exactly. I make Antonio wait at doorways, but it's because I don't want him to be taking my legs out from under me by trying to shove through the doorway first. It has no impact on how he sees me.

@jacksdad,
I really want to go to Clicker Expo, but my training mentor is going and I agreed to help teach one of her group classes while she is away. It's a paid gig, and I can always go to CE another year. :)

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