Hi there
We are on holiday at the mo... The dogs are with my mum in their home and we have a dog walker who i vetted walking the dogs every day. Very difficult leaving them as you can imagine. Not least because they are not the easiest of dogs. The holiday was something I could not get out of....just to put that straight. Anyway, dog walker attempted to towel dry male collie who is touch sensitive anyway and he growled. Dog walker went back and told mum he would just have to get used to it. Mum put her right on few things. I can towel dry him in a particular way and deliver reward afterwards and all is good. So can mum but you would have to be aware of head turns and changes in body language which most people are not...I would assume this meant the dog walker was not either. Mum told her to give his space and dont do it again. Dog walker said he was complex dog. I said well sort of but he is a sensitive collie and you would do well to read him better and avoid the battles. He is very good when people understand and listen to him.
I was browsing this article. What do you make of it with regard to the old rank / controlling collie thing again. I have to say my male does fit into this description seemingly accurately.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Canine-Behav ... arling.htm
The girl has no issues with being towel dried. Accepts it and is fine and happy.
Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
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runlikethewind
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Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
The article suggests that growling on being handled is a sign of aggression that will get worse, and an indicator that the dog is pushing for rank... From what I've learnt from here and elsewhere, the dog is simply communicating that he's not comfortable being handled in that way. How else is he meant to tell you?
Jasper growled at me last night... He normally gets up once or twice in the night
and once he's back on his bed I tuck him under his blankie again 
As it's dark, I tend to put my hand down to stroke him to work out where his head is so I can position the blanket but last night he must have been a different way round to normal and I couldn't find his head. After a lot of fumbling, he let out a small growl. I don't feel any need to be concerned about this, I'd feel equally peed off with OH if he started fumbling when I wanted to go straight to sleep, and I'd growl at him 
Some dogs will withstand any amount of prodding and poking and would never growl, let alone bite, others are less keen to put up with handling they don't enjoy. I don't think this is anything to do with dominance - for some it's caused by past experiences, for others it's simply part of their personality.
Jasper growled at me last night... He normally gets up once or twice in the night
and once he's back on his bed I tuck him under his blankie again As it's dark, I tend to put my hand down to stroke him to work out where his head is so I can position the blanket but last night he must have been a different way round to normal and I couldn't find his head. After a lot of fumbling, he let out a small growl. I don't feel any need to be concerned about this, I'd feel equally peed off with OH if he started fumbling when I wanted to go straight to sleep, and I'd growl at him Some dogs will withstand any amount of prodding and poking and would never growl, let alone bite, others are less keen to put up with handling they don't enjoy. I don't think this is anything to do with dominance - for some it's caused by past experiences, for others it's simply part of their personality.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
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barneybuttons
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Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
i have a problem with my dog - only had him a few days as he is a rescue dog and i am fostering him. He loves his walks but will not let me towel dry him, he runs away or bites and growls at the towel. I guess he has had a bad experience but I don't know how to overcome this apart from hoping with time he will trust me more. Now I have to let him come in without being dried or keep him on the lead and use the hairdrier. I can only think of putting a muzzle on. Any ideas? He is a 3 year old standard Yorkshire Terrier. History of separation from his only elderly owner, but loving home otherwise. He may have had temporary dog walkers before he came to me.
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
Patricia McConnell occasionally makes comments about status seeking dogs. But unfortunately non of her material that I have expands too much on this concept. Based on her reputation, I am just for the moment accepting that this behavior exists. However........
Does this behavior apply to human/dog interaction? Does status seeking and aggression have any relationship, particularly between human and dogs? questions a bit above my experience at this time....BUT if I had to wing an answer based on everything I have learned about fearful dogs and dog aggression....
if a dog growls at being toweled off, it's not about attaining status or asserting leadership or lack of consistent leadership or anything else that the article suggests beyond the valid points regarding physical issues. Frankly to me, the way the article talks about leadership....it has the influenced by Dominance Theory feel to it.
It is just so much easier to blame things on lack of leadership, dog trying to achieve status etc, than to actually learn the individual dog, to learn to work with the dog's natural personality and traits. those things take time and effort.
I just keep coming back to leadership is STRESSFUL, EXPENSIVE, and RISKY...So I think far fewer dogs actually want to be "leader" than a lot of people think. And there is still the question of do dogs try and be leader of humans. knowing that they KNOW we aren't dogs, and given that we breed dogs to do a job for us, to defer to us to make OUR lives easier, I am still not buying that they do want/try to be leaders over humans. I just can't come to terms with the idea that dogs as a rule, as normal behavior, are driven to compete with us for leadership, EVEN when we are being inconsistent, aren't clearly communicating etc, etc. it just sets up a battle of wills that defeats the entire purpose of having a dog to do a job that makes human life easier.
So, for now I personally think the whole dog trying to achieve leadership over us humans is a flawed theory and "nice sounding" explanation that while sounding good, really and truly doesn't explain anything. at least to my satisfaction.
I think your dog walker isn't someone who your dog is truly comfortable with and so is NOT going to let that person do things you are allowed to do. I don't think this has anything to do with "leadership" or lack of or even status issues. I think it has to do with exactly what you said, "being a sensitive collie.. that needs to be read better". As such when your dog isn't trusting of someone or uncomfortable with a situation it's going to do the natural thing.....growl.
Does this behavior apply to human/dog interaction? Does status seeking and aggression have any relationship, particularly between human and dogs? questions a bit above my experience at this time....BUT if I had to wing an answer based on everything I have learned about fearful dogs and dog aggression....
if a dog growls at being toweled off, it's not about attaining status or asserting leadership or lack of consistent leadership or anything else that the article suggests beyond the valid points regarding physical issues. Frankly to me, the way the article talks about leadership....it has the influenced by Dominance Theory feel to it.
It is just so much easier to blame things on lack of leadership, dog trying to achieve status etc, than to actually learn the individual dog, to learn to work with the dog's natural personality and traits. those things take time and effort.
I just keep coming back to leadership is STRESSFUL, EXPENSIVE, and RISKY...So I think far fewer dogs actually want to be "leader" than a lot of people think. And there is still the question of do dogs try and be leader of humans. knowing that they KNOW we aren't dogs, and given that we breed dogs to do a job for us, to defer to us to make OUR lives easier, I am still not buying that they do want/try to be leaders over humans. I just can't come to terms with the idea that dogs as a rule, as normal behavior, are driven to compete with us for leadership, EVEN when we are being inconsistent, aren't clearly communicating etc, etc. it just sets up a battle of wills that defeats the entire purpose of having a dog to do a job that makes human life easier.
So, for now I personally think the whole dog trying to achieve leadership over us humans is a flawed theory and "nice sounding" explanation that while sounding good, really and truly doesn't explain anything. at least to my satisfaction.
I think your dog walker isn't someone who your dog is truly comfortable with and so is NOT going to let that person do things you are allowed to do. I don't think this has anything to do with "leadership" or lack of or even status issues. I think it has to do with exactly what you said, "being a sensitive collie.. that needs to be read better". As such when your dog isn't trusting of someone or uncomfortable with a situation it's going to do the natural thing.....growl.
Last edited by jacksdad on Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
barneybuttons wrote:i have a problem with my dog - only had him a few days as he is a rescue dog and i am fostering him. He loves his walks but will not let me towel dry him, he runs away or bites and growls at the towel. I guess he has had a bad experience but I don't know how to overcome this apart from hoping with time he will trust me more. Now I have to let him come in without being dried or keep him on the lead and use the hairdrier. I can only think of putting a muzzle on. Any ideas? He is a 3 year old standard Yorkshire Terrier. History of separation from his only elderly owner, but loving home otherwise. He may have had temporary dog walkers before he came to me.
Barney, while you may seem to have a similar issue, it is still best to open your own thread. hopefully our helpful and friendly moderator will be by to split you off to your own thread.
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runlikethewind
- Posts: 1166
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Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
Thank you jacksdad. I wish someone would just clear up this rank / status argument once and for all.
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
Want me to? But it's only my opinion would be a longish post.
Anyway, as far as this goes, I reckon this collie is saying that he didn't want the dog walker to dry him. End of. Not a status, just a statement. A lot of children would wiggle and squawk if a stranger tried to dry them too, and you have already told us that your dog is touch-sensitive. Dogs are limited in how they can say they don't agree with a proposed interaction - it's likely that collie did all the polite body-language stuff first and dogwalker didn't 'listen'.
Good on Mother for pointing things out, and quite simply, collie does not have to be dried. It's preferable for us because of the wet dog in house syndrome, but not vital for the dog. You'll be home soon - and maybe look out for a more aware dogwalker, though going by the ones where I live it may be a long search.
would be a longish post.Anyway, as far as this goes, I reckon this collie is saying that he didn't want the dog walker to dry him. End of. Not a status, just a statement. A lot of children would wiggle and squawk if a stranger tried to dry them too, and you have already told us that your dog is touch-sensitive. Dogs are limited in how they can say they don't agree with a proposed interaction - it's likely that collie did all the polite body-language stuff first and dogwalker didn't 'listen'.
Good on Mother for pointing things out, and quite simply, collie does not have to be dried. It's preferable for us because of the wet dog in house syndrome, but not vital for the dog. You'll be home soon - and maybe look out for a more aware dogwalker, though going by the ones where I live
it may be a long search.A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
The trouble is, there's so much contradictory stuff out there and you can turn your brain inside out trying to get at 'the truth'. I confess I haven't read all the different articles giving evidence for and against 'pack theory' but in the end, you have to look at the dog in front of you and see what works for him. The approach taken by this forum is far more effective on my dog than any other, and also explains his behaviour better - the idea that his 'bad' behaviour shows he's challenging me for leadership would totally contradict his behaviour in other areas.runlikethewind wrote:I wish someone would just clear up this rank / status argument once and for all.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
I'm not sure if this is the article Jackdad is refering to but you might find it interesting. http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/th ... -dominance This is the first blog in a series that you can follow using the date links on the right. I think the next one in the series is around the start of April 2010.
There's another article by Roger Abrantes here http://rogerabrantes.wordpress.com/2011 ... -nonsense/
My personal feeling is that I'd rather have the relationship with my dog that is brought about by being a clever human then the one you get when you try and be a tough dog.
There's another article by Roger Abrantes here http://rogerabrantes.wordpress.com/2011 ... -nonsense/
My personal feeling is that I'd rather have the relationship with my dog that is brought about by being a clever human then the one you get when you try and be a tough dog.
Operant conditioning rocks but classical conditioning rules
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
That's brilliantWufWuf wrote:My personal feeling is that I'd rather have the relationship with my dog that is brought about by being a clever human then the one you get when you try and be a tough dog.
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
runlikethewind wrote:Thank you jacksdad. I wish someone would just clear up this rank / status argument once and for all.
I would love to hear your opinions on this Nettle. And long posts don't bother us, remember?Nettle wrote:Want me to? But it's only my opinion
Seriously though, I have read your thoughts here and there on this subject, but to have it all in one detailed post would be fantastic!
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
Okay: here I go.
Wise wise words.
The leadership idea is very seductive to us humans. You know: the strongest, best-looking most charismatic, wisest person who wins all the fights, has first dibs at the best mates, gets all the finest food, the treasure, the.....
Doesn't work in the world of dogs. The dog is a co-operative species, and as Jacksdad says WE have bred them to help us, which means those that were averse to the idea didn't get bred from. Most of the things we want (world domination, cashmere sweaters, other people holding us in awe) dogs couldn't give a flying one about.
Dogs know we aren't dogs and they know they aren't human, as quoted above. They wouldn't think much of us if we were dogs because our bodies are so much less efficient than ours, and they have no concept of how our minds work. What they DO know is that we hold the resources - things they want - and sometimes we are slow in realising that they want these things, and even need some of these things. (HOW often does someone post here in a rare old huff because a dog has helped itself to some food that was lying about, or chewed on a lovely scrunchy stinky item like a shoe?)
From long personal observation, I confidently aver that dogs do not do 'leadership'. A dog does not want to rule. A dog wants to feel safe. A dog wants its needs fulfilled. It does not want to battle for supremacy. It would rather not even fight for its life - think of the ritual body language sequences that deflect a fight. Sadly, between dog and human, situations constantly arise where the dog feels frightened, threatened or has an urgent unfulfilled need, polite communication goes unheard and so the dog has to SHOUT by noise or actions. What else can it do? It might shut down at first but in the end it will react in a way that draws our notice.
Between dog and dog, you DO get animals that are confident, even-tempered, physically adept and mentally acute. For want of a better term, you could call these 'alpha' dogs. They are alpha among dogs not among people. Other dogs respect them. Courtesy of Dr. Dunbar via Emmabeth, I bring the valuable quote that the alpha does not take this respect - other dogs offer it. Because they feel safe around this type of dog. This kind of alpha (I think we need a better word - over to you all to find it) does not fight or challenge - other dogs give way. They do not fear this dog. There is a crucial difference between respect and fear. They fear being without this dog. Then they are alone in the world.
The alpha does not 'lead' in any way, shape or form. The alpha just is. When it comes to resources, the alpha will take what it is interested in, and leave the rest for the others. Different alphas value different things. They do not fight for those resources - other dogs allow them to have them.
My own observation is that when a true alpha becomes aged, well-adjusted dogs still respect it but badly-socialised dogs will attack. These are inadequates that couldn't handle alphaness if it were served up with fries. Because the next alpha waits patiently in the wings and in my experience there is no battle for the new order, but a bloodless coup whereby other dogs transfer their respect and still tolerate the retired alpha, who seems still to have some of the old aura. You won't read this anywhere else because it is not a scientific study but the product of years and years of watching dogs. However, old dogs that are sick or weak WILL be attacked and probably killed, because this is part of canine programming and ensures group survival. Social inadequates will offer fights to other dogs but not to people.
Only my own experience again, but there is quite a lot of it - I have never ever come across a case of dogs wanting to dominate humans. I have come across countless cases of dogs shouting to be heard, dogs that feel vulnerable because their humans do not protect them, dogs whose needs are not being met, and dogs that think their humans are attacking them. I have seen dogs that are so at sea behaviourally that their humans run the household around them, but these dogs aren't ruling any roost - they are so relieved when the owners understand their needs and start to address them that the 'dominant' behaviour fades away.
jacksdad wrote:I just keep coming back to leadership is STRESSFUL, EXPENSIVE, and RISKY...So I think far fewer dogs actually want to be "leader" than a lot of people think. And there is still the question of do dogs try and be leader of humans. knowing that they KNOW we aren't dogs, and given that we breed dogs to do a job for us, to defer to us to make OUR lives easier, I am still not buying that they do want/try to be leaders over humans. I just can't come to terms with the idea that dogs as a rule, as normal behavior, are driven to compete with us for leadership, EVEN when we are being inconsistent, aren't clearly communicating etc, etc. it just sets up a battle of wills that defeats the entire purpose of having a dog to do a job that makes human life easier.
Wise wise words.
The leadership idea is very seductive to us humans. You know: the strongest, best-looking most charismatic, wisest person who wins all the fights, has first dibs at the best mates, gets all the finest food, the treasure, the.....
Doesn't work in the world of dogs. The dog is a co-operative species, and as Jacksdad says WE have bred them to help us, which means those that were averse to the idea didn't get bred from. Most of the things we want (world domination, cashmere sweaters, other people holding us in awe) dogs couldn't give a flying one about.
Dogs know we aren't dogs and they know they aren't human, as quoted above. They wouldn't think much of us if we were dogs because our bodies are so much less efficient than ours, and they have no concept of how our minds work. What they DO know is that we hold the resources - things they want - and sometimes we are slow in realising that they want these things, and even need some of these things. (HOW often does someone post here in a rare old huff because a dog has helped itself to some food that was lying about, or chewed on a lovely scrunchy stinky item like a shoe?)
From long personal observation, I confidently aver that dogs do not do 'leadership'. A dog does not want to rule. A dog wants to feel safe. A dog wants its needs fulfilled. It does not want to battle for supremacy. It would rather not even fight for its life - think of the ritual body language sequences that deflect a fight. Sadly, between dog and human, situations constantly arise where the dog feels frightened, threatened or has an urgent unfulfilled need, polite communication goes unheard and so the dog has to SHOUT by noise or actions. What else can it do? It might shut down at first but in the end it will react in a way that draws our notice.
Between dog and dog, you DO get animals that are confident, even-tempered, physically adept and mentally acute. For want of a better term, you could call these 'alpha' dogs. They are alpha among dogs not among people. Other dogs respect them. Courtesy of Dr. Dunbar via Emmabeth, I bring the valuable quote that the alpha does not take this respect - other dogs offer it. Because they feel safe around this type of dog. This kind of alpha (I think we need a better word - over to you all to find it) does not fight or challenge - other dogs give way. They do not fear this dog. There is a crucial difference between respect and fear. They fear being without this dog. Then they are alone in the world.
The alpha does not 'lead' in any way, shape or form. The alpha just is. When it comes to resources, the alpha will take what it is interested in, and leave the rest for the others. Different alphas value different things. They do not fight for those resources - other dogs allow them to have them.
My own observation is that when a true alpha becomes aged, well-adjusted dogs still respect it but badly-socialised dogs will attack. These are inadequates that couldn't handle alphaness if it were served up with fries. Because the next alpha waits patiently in the wings and in my experience there is no battle for the new order, but a bloodless coup whereby other dogs transfer their respect and still tolerate the retired alpha, who seems still to have some of the old aura. You won't read this anywhere else because it is not a scientific study but the product of years and years of watching dogs. However, old dogs that are sick or weak WILL be attacked and probably killed, because this is part of canine programming and ensures group survival. Social inadequates will offer fights to other dogs but not to people.
Only my own experience again, but there is quite a lot of it - I have never ever come across a case of dogs wanting to dominate humans. I have come across countless cases of dogs shouting to be heard, dogs that feel vulnerable because their humans do not protect them, dogs whose needs are not being met, and dogs that think their humans are attacking them. I have seen dogs that are so at sea behaviourally that their humans run the household around them, but these dogs aren't ruling any roost - they are so relieved when the owners understand their needs and start to address them that the 'dominant' behaviour fades away.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
minkee wrote:That's brilliantWufWuf wrote:My personal feeling is that I'd rather have the relationship with my dog that is brought about by being a clever human then the one you get when you try and be a tough dog.
Certainly is
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
Well? What are you waiting for?Nettle wrote:Want me to? But it's only my opinion
I'm sure a lot of us would be interested in hearing your opinion no matter how long the post.You have a touch sensitive dog who doesn't want to be dried by someone he doesn't know well. Nothing to do with status imo, more likely he's simply not comfortable with it being done. Same with dogs who don't like being hugged, patted, grabbed by the collar or picked up. I don't like my husband tickling my feet purely because I don't like how it feels, why can some people not accept that sometimes dogs simply do not like something and that it's not all about rank?
Re: Dog walker towelling dog eliciting growl
Wuffwuff, that blob post wasn't specifically what I was referring to, but it is a good one.
Nettle, thank you very much for expanding on the question. it's nice to know we are all starting to really get it and look deeper for what the dog is really trying to say to us. I know the more I learn to do this, the better I get at it, the better live becomes for Jack and my self and my family. he just seems more settled. More willing to work with me while I bumble through trying to learn something new with him. And I consider my self just scratching the surface of all this.
Nettle, thank you very much for expanding on the question. it's nice to know we are all starting to really get it and look deeper for what the dog is really trying to say to us. I know the more I learn to do this, the better I get at it, the better live becomes for Jack and my self and my family. he just seems more settled. More willing to work with me while I bumble through trying to learn something new with him. And I consider my self just scratching the surface of all this.
