Choke Chains
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Choke Chains
My dog used to pull really bad on a walk, so my dad started. Using this spiked choke chain on him. I wouldn't be so against them if people no how to use them, iv seen him lift my dog off the ground by the chain when he's being "Naughy". When really I could have fixed it in a less violent way. I'm amazed that when we pull the chain off of him we haven't found blood yet, Iv been training and working with my dog ever since I saw the show "It's me or the dog" back when I was 5. I can easily walk him in just a collar or in a harness. But if my dad catches me he yelled and tells me that he'll get lose. Really I handle 1500-3000 pound horses every day, so if It did come to a battle of strengh I'm sure I'd be fine. But my dad still thinks he's this crazy dog on the leash. How can I convince him to not use a choke chain? My dog is a Huskey/Malmute/Germansheperd cross if that helps at all.
Re: Choke Chains
It's great that you came here with this situation!
I am sure you will soon get a lot of info here on why choke chains are not advisable.. that's the easy part, there is plenty of information on this subject.
But as far as convincing good old Dad - this may take a while. Dads usually know best...
I would suggest first to switch to a harness, the kind where leash is attached on the front, not on the back, like EasyWalk. This way you will stop hurting the dog and at the same time Dad won't feel that the dog is beyond your or his control. If this is not good enough for him - head collar. I personally don't like head collars, but it's better then chokes.
At the same time you can start working on Dad and getting him on board with positive and non-violent ways of training.
I am sure you will soon get a lot of info here on why choke chains are not advisable.. that's the easy part, there is plenty of information on this subject.
But as far as convincing good old Dad - this may take a while. Dads usually know best...
I would suggest first to switch to a harness, the kind where leash is attached on the front, not on the back, like EasyWalk. This way you will stop hurting the dog and at the same time Dad won't feel that the dog is beyond your or his control. If this is not good enough for him - head collar. I personally don't like head collars, but it's better then chokes.
At the same time you can start working on Dad and getting him on board with positive and non-violent ways of training.
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runlikethewind
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm
Re: Choke Chains
Well done on standing by your beliefs. Send your Dad onto here and we will tell him in the nicest way possible what he is doing is abuse.
Re: Choke Chains
Well first off there isn't really a "right" way to use these things. Choke chains and prong collars are by design and intent meant to cause pain. the idea behind it is based on some incorrect "science" of how dogs treat each other. So, in case your dad hasn't noticed, the reason your dog still pulls is it's NEVER been taught to NOT pull regardless of who is walking him. that takes training and it sounds like you have made some progress when it's you, so big pat on the back.
Training will always trump "gadgets and tools". There are some gadgets and tools that assist training such as the harnesses that Ari_RR mentions. But even these will NOT train your dog to not pull. Only teaching your dog to not pull will do that. Right now your dad is essentially punishing your dog at (from your dogs perspective) random times, random reasons and as such isn't learning what to do. that is a key to fixing "problems", don't punish what you don't want, teach what you do what. dog's want to work with us, want to please us, only punishing leaves them confused and unsure what to do. which is why (among many other reasons) it is not only a poor training method, but doesn't work. So, again, focus on what it is you DO want your dog to do.
We have a great thread for teaching your dog to walk on leash without pulling found here viewtopic.php?f=20&t=858
a dogs natural pace is faster than us humans, they tend to trot more than walk, so your dog needs two things. one, to know where you want him to walk, and two, time to learn to adjust his pace to yours. both can be accomplished at the same time using the above method. one of the cool things about this method is the chance to move forward and or take breaks for sniffing and exploring is for most dogs reward enough. food treats are often not necessary with this method. which might be a selling point for your dad to switch methods.
as for him running off, again training is the solution. teaching a solid recall is a part of that. a huge part of getting your dog to willingly come back is to not be associated with pain and punishment. why would a dog come back if it knows it will be yelled at, choked, or receive some other form of punishment. a huge part of my dogs recall isn't me calling him to me, but him having learned that I am fun and safe to be near to return too. he regularly "check back in" with me either by stopping and looking at me or actually on his own coming back over to me without me calling him. returning to me means fun and good things happen, so he is more than willing to do so when called.
A good thread for teaching a recall is found here viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7155
a word of caution on this though. recall takes time and effort to train up and make solid, but can be ruined in a fraction of the time it took to train. so if you can't get everyone on board, long leads may be a solution. 15 to 25 food leashes where safe, while not as much freedom as being off lead, is more freedom than a 6 foot walking lead. I used a 15 foot lead for a while with my dog to give him more freedom, teach recall, but sill have a safety net so to speak.
Training will always trump "gadgets and tools". There are some gadgets and tools that assist training such as the harnesses that Ari_RR mentions. But even these will NOT train your dog to not pull. Only teaching your dog to not pull will do that. Right now your dad is essentially punishing your dog at (from your dogs perspective) random times, random reasons and as such isn't learning what to do. that is a key to fixing "problems", don't punish what you don't want, teach what you do what. dog's want to work with us, want to please us, only punishing leaves them confused and unsure what to do. which is why (among many other reasons) it is not only a poor training method, but doesn't work. So, again, focus on what it is you DO want your dog to do.
We have a great thread for teaching your dog to walk on leash without pulling found here viewtopic.php?f=20&t=858
a dogs natural pace is faster than us humans, they tend to trot more than walk, so your dog needs two things. one, to know where you want him to walk, and two, time to learn to adjust his pace to yours. both can be accomplished at the same time using the above method. one of the cool things about this method is the chance to move forward and or take breaks for sniffing and exploring is for most dogs reward enough. food treats are often not necessary with this method. which might be a selling point for your dad to switch methods.
as for him running off, again training is the solution. teaching a solid recall is a part of that. a huge part of getting your dog to willingly come back is to not be associated with pain and punishment. why would a dog come back if it knows it will be yelled at, choked, or receive some other form of punishment. a huge part of my dogs recall isn't me calling him to me, but him having learned that I am fun and safe to be near to return too. he regularly "check back in" with me either by stopping and looking at me or actually on his own coming back over to me without me calling him. returning to me means fun and good things happen, so he is more than willing to do so when called.
A good thread for teaching a recall is found here viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7155
a word of caution on this though. recall takes time and effort to train up and make solid, but can be ruined in a fraction of the time it took to train. so if you can't get everyone on board, long leads may be a solution. 15 to 25 food leashes where safe, while not as much freedom as being off lead, is more freedom than a 6 foot walking lead. I used a 15 foot lead for a while with my dog to give him more freedom, teach recall, but sill have a safety net so to speak.
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ladybug1802
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
- Location: Surrey
Re: Choke Chains
Try suggesting to your dad that you put the prong collar on HIM, and then when he least expects it (because your dog truly will NOT know why he is having pain inflicted on him!) tighten it as tight as you can and see if HE likes it and see what effect it has on him! I am honestly surprised your dog has not shown some form of aggression towards your dad because, as runlikethewind says, this is sheer abuse to your dog.
Can I ask - is he your dog, or your dad's dog? If he is yours then I would tell your dad to actually keep out of it as it is up to you what you do with your dog not him.
Can I ask - is he your dog, or your dad's dog? If he is yours then I would tell your dad to actually keep out of it as it is up to you what you do with your dog not him.
Re: Choke Chains
but only if you are at an age where such a approach won't get you in troubleladybug1802 wrote:Try suggesting to your dad that you put the prong collar on HIM, and then when he least expects it (because your dog truly will NOT know why he is having pain inflicted on him!) tighten it as tight as you can and see if HE likes it and see what effect it has on him! I am honestly surprised your dog has not shown some form of aggression towards your dad because, as runlikethewind says, this is sheer abuse to your dog.
Can I ask - is he your dog, or your dad's dog? If he is yours then I would tell your dad to actually keep out of it as it is up to you what you do with your dog not him.
i would hate to have you get punished by following advice from here.
If credibility helps with passing on advice, I am not some "young whipper snapper". I am also a dad, my kids are college age and I have been around the block in life so to speak. if that helps with your dad at all.
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ladybug1802
- Posts: 1991
- Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:39 am
- Location: Surrey
Re: Choke Chains
Ah yes good point Jacksdad.....to OP...i dont know how old you are (a point that slipped my mind!!), so if you are of a young age, please suggest to your dad he comes onto this thread and he will be advised why this is a very bad method to use with your dog!
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Bluegirly01
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:00 pm
Re: Choke Chains
Put your dad in the choke chain and see if he likes it, just a thought.
Re: Choke Chains
If you are young, I have had your exact same experience (except I don't handle horses). We had my pug max on a choke chain or prong collar when I was younger. I saw an episode of It's Me or the Dog and also had an experience of some neighbors murmuring about his choke chain. I actually hid the prong collar and choke chain and convinced my dad that we had lost them. We put him on a no-pull harness. (I had told my dad to get a normal one, but he came back home from the store with it so we made do) And I used the loose leash walking tips on this forum and It's Me or the Dog and Max is walking fine. He can walk well on just his collar but we always keeps his harness on while out just in case he suddenly lunges at something.
My dad has always been anti positive reinforcement, but I'm slowly converting him. Sometimes I'll peek around the corner and see him attempting some obedience commands I have taught max and giving him plenty of praise and rewarding with food intermittently. Makes me really happy to see. (And then I'll "reward" dad by telling max to do some extremely cute trick so dad is smitten) Of course he'll still revert to some quite harsh punishment, but I normally stop him in the middle of it and tell him how to do it positively.
My dad has always been anti positive reinforcement, but I'm slowly converting him. Sometimes I'll peek around the corner and see him attempting some obedience commands I have taught max and giving him plenty of praise and rewarding with food intermittently. Makes me really happy to see. (And then I'll "reward" dad by telling max to do some extremely cute trick so dad is smitten) Of course he'll still revert to some quite harsh punishment, but I normally stop him in the middle of it and tell him how to do it positively.
--dontpugme
