How to properly "correct" a dog and other questions about +R

[SheilaTheDog]

Hello,
I have a dog who I have been training using +R (mainly with treats) for the past several months. I had done a lot of research on dog training through books, videos, and articles; but none of the trainers (Andrea Arden, Dr. Ian Dunbar, Emily Larlham, Karen Pryor, other clicker trainers) I have been following go into depth much about phasing out the use of treats. I am having an extremely difficult time becoming independent from the use of "cookie bribery," and my dog will only do what I ask when she thinks
a) I have a treat bag clipped onto my belt
b) there are treats nearby (in a jar or bag on a shelf)
c) there are treats in my pockets
d) it is her mealtime
e) I have a treat in my hand. Sometimes I will pretend I have a food reward in my hand and use my hand as a lure.
For all of the above, she will respond to a command once but if she realizes that she will not get a treat, she will not listen to any other commands I give her and will instead begin barking like a maniac. I have to end up taking smelly chicken in my pockets to the dog park and when we go on walks in order to be assured that she will listen. She is very attentive to my actions and can almost always tell whether or not there is food on me. She has absolutely no interest in toys, so I can't really reward her with play. I really hate the idea of bribing my dog all the time for her to do what I want. This would be especially true in the instance of an emergency.
When she barks in demand for food after she realizes she is not going to get a treat, I try to ignore her and wait for calm, quiet behavior to award with my attention. This does work, but only somewhat. It takes ages for her to calm down, sending my stress levels through the roof (she barks very loud and rapidly) and I have to keep repeating this every single time. It never gets better, only lasts temporarily.
Her barking really is a problem, she barks almost constantly when she wants food or get excited or if there are squirrels in the yard. She is also very reactive on walks when I don't have food tidbits in hand. It's obviously very self-rewarding for her, but I have no way to control it. Putting her on a leash and tying her to me doesn't help. Crating her often doesn't help. And Kong toys only last so long. I've tried teaching "quiet" which she picked up fairly quickly but once again, no treat, no compliance.
I've tried using "life rewards" such as permission to get up on furniture or to be let out, but when I give the command she almost seemingly glares at me and takes very long to respond, often well over five seconds. When I use treats, she responds in half a second, so I am sure she knows what I am asking.
This is probably an important factor: I have never "corrected" my dog, with either physical force or a voice correction. I have never told her "no." I had learned that it just leads to confusion and nothing more than abuse, and that I should reward my dog for doing good behavior rather than correcting the bad behavior. This obviously has become a problem; my dog is now equivalent to a brat.
I have tried proofing behaviors, making her do more than one command for a treat, and using life rewards - but the chances of my dog obeying me in those circumstances are about 1 out of 10.
She gets very excited/agitated around food, no matter what kind of food it is or how much there is. I have also tried the technique where you prepare the dog's meal ahead of mealtime and place the food in front of her when she is calm, lying down, and not thinking about food. I have noticed no change in the dog's excitement towards food.
So, I have quite a few questions:
1. How can I phase out the use of treats?
2. Should I ever correct my dog, and how should I do it?
3. Why not use a "scruff shake?"
4. Why is there such a bad rap with slip collars/choke chains? Would a partial check collar be more acceptable? (Picture of a partial check: http://www.canis-equus.co.uk/product/view/28)
5. How can I teach quiet without the aid of food?
6. How can I get my dog interested in toys?
7. What do you think about the being-the-pack-leader theory, and why?
8. It has been said that you should always follow up a "no" or "ah-ah" with a consequential action. What action should this be?
9. How can I get my dog to listen to me in distracting environments (preferably w/o treats)?

Thank you for your time and response

[emmabeth]

Ok..

1/ Phase out treats - you phase out the bribery, ie food directly under her nose, but you don't actually phase out giving rewards. She is never going to work for nothing, though with many dogs it is possible to phase out a food reward. (Look up Susan Garrett for this in particular as I think her way of working with this sort of thing will suit you).

So ask for a behaviour, reward. Ask for TWO behaviours then reward. Ask for three.. then reward, and so on, and then mix it up - so she doesnt know if she gets her reward after one or ten or three or fifteen.

2. Should I ever correct my dog, and how should I do it?

Generally speaking, no you shouldn't - sometimes life gets in the way of that and so there are consequences you can provide, such as walking out of the room when she nags for food, time outs when you fail to redirect or pre-empt a behaviour. If you use these when absolutely necessary (and you will find the further you get into this, the less necessary they become!), but ALSO you look at WHY the correction was 'necessary', and how you can prevent that occurring in future. That really is how this works. If you are needing corrections a lot then you need to rexamine what you are doing and why it evidently isn't working.


3. Why not use a "scruff shake?"
Why not punch someone in the face?


4. Why is there such a bad rap with slip collars/choke chains? Would a partial check collar be more acceptable? (Picture of a partial check: http://www.canis-equus.co.uk/product/view/28)
They can and do cause pain and permanent damage, their whole purpose is to cause pain and the dog associates the sound of the chain tightening with discomfort. Slip collars are used to correct dogs too but less so than choke chains. Half checks (such as the one in the pic which I made ) can be used as that sound aversive of chain tightening, or they can be used for dogs who can back out of flat collars. Some people like a collar that sits loosely when not in use, but will tighten up sufficiently that the dog cannot slip it, so half checks work for those. They are also called martingale collars. If they do not tighten up to smaller than the circumference of the dogs neck they are no more aversive than a plain buckle collar. Obviously if they can be adjusted to tighten smaller than the dogs neck then they are really no better than a choke or slip chain.


5. How can I teach quiet without the aid of food?

Use a toy that your dog likes and stuff that in their mouth - but if your dog prefers food then this is unlikely to work.


6. How can I get my dog interested in toys?

Sometimes, you can't. Sometimes you can, by making them super exciting, picking toys your dog is more likely to like, by associating them with things your dog already does like, and by limiting their use so they do not become boring.


7. What do you think about the being-the-pack-leader theory, and why?

Its based on outdated and 'duff' science - dogs are NOT pack animals, they ARE social animals who like to be with us, but they are not so hardwired to stay in a family group as wolves or a variety of other species. Following the old pack leader theory leads to a load of confusion and misunderstanding.

I prefer to liken the relationship between dogs and their owners as a mixture of friendship, teamleader/team player/ teacher/student, parent/child - these all suggest a MUCH healthier, kinder and more productive relationship than the common view of 'pack leader'.

8. It has been said that you should always follow up a "no" or "ah-ah" with a consequential action. What action should this be?
That really depends on the context I think. I prefer to avoid having to do this in the first place.

9. How can I get my dog to listen to me in distracting environments (preferably w/o treats)?

Get them listening to you consistently in quiet places without treats, then in distracting places WITH treats, then in distracting places without treats. But just as you wouldn't work for no salary, and you sure as heck won't bust a gut at the month end to meet extra deadlines and overtime without pay and probably a bonus... expecting a dog to work for no reward in a distracting environment is unreasonable and unrealistic.;

[Dibbythedog]

You've not given many details about your dog . Some questions to think about.
What age and breed is your dog? Has she been spayed? What brand of food are you feeding her? How much exercise and stimulation does she get? Does she get enough or too much? How can you train her to cope with frustration?
I know you are asking technical questions about training but you need to take the above into account when dealing with the problems you are having with your dog.

Alison

[SheilaTheDog]

@Dibbythedog
She is eight years old, yes she's spayed, she gets fed Wellness Complete Health, she gets plenty of stimulation (2+ hours a day) but I always end training sessions when she gets most into it, and I don't think she'd frustrated - she's just sensitive to her surroundings.
Breed: Sheltie

[SheilaTheDog]

"But just as you wouldn't work for no salary,"

People keep saying that treats are equivalent to a dog's salary. I never fully understood this concept. When teaching tricks or advanced behaviors I can fully understand that, but for basic obedience, treats shouldn't be necessary. You don't get paid for having good manners and kids don't get candy for coming to their parents when called, it's just something that is expected. When you use food all the time the dog is more focused on the reward than you. My goal is to get my dog to really like responding to my requests, without the aid of bribes, because she'll really like and respect me as a person.
Nobody likes a spoiled dog - or a spoiled child.

[ladybug1802]

I disagree Sheilathe dog. I use treats with my boy, and we couldnt have got to where we are now without them. I always have treats on me when we are out....always....but certainly doesnt mean he is focused on the treats all the time and not me. He is only focused on the treats when I get one out of my bag....but I also take a kong squeakair tennis ball toy out on walks with me because he loves squeaky balls, so when I recall him, for example, I always reward him either with a treat or a game with the ball because there has to be a reason for him to come back. If I constantly called him back to me and gace him no reward, why will he want to come back as soon as I call him? You dont have to ALWAYS give him a treat....as has already been suggested you can give a treat every other time, or once in 3 times, or whatever, and the other times give him rewards in the shape of scratches/strokes (if your dog enjoys them) or a game with his favourite toy.

Put it this way....I wouldnt constantly do what someone told me to do if I got nothing in return!

Treats arent bribes....they are a training aid. But so is affection, toys etc. Just because a dog obeys commands because he has been trained using treats does not mean it is spoiled.

[Sarah83]

Dogs do not differentiate between "tricks" and important behaviours. To a dog they're all just tricks and the vast majority pretty pointless as far as they can see. Dogs don't obey because they like or respect someone I'm afraid, they do it because it benefits them to do so. In the beginning phases of training anything I use a lot of food rewards. Once Rupe's learned a command though food rewards don't come every time. Sometimes he'll get a game, sometimes we go for a walk, sometimes he'll get a "good boy" and a quick stroke. Why should he do seemingly pointless things for absolutely no reward?

[Dibbythedog]

Thanks for your answers, it helps to give a clearer picture.

I have to cut and run but just a couple of points. She sounds a reactive dog but barking when she doesnt get a treat is ususally frustration unless she has learnt that if sh e keeps barkíng then you will give in.

BTW Shelties are very barky dogs , they are well known for it .

I've tried using "life rewards" such as permission to get up on furniture or to be let out, but when I give the command she almost seemingly glares at me and takes very long to respond, often well over five seconds. When I use treats, she responds in half a second, so I am sure she knows what I am asking.

Carry on using life rewards, it is working! While 5 seconds is obviously longer than 1 second, that is still a quick time compared to some dogs.

Ali

[ClareMarsh]

It's also important to remember that often (especially when outdoors) we're asking our dogs to do something that goes against their instincts (e.g. leave that very interesting smell and come back to me, come back to me rather than run over to that possible new doggy friend), this is hard work for a dog to do, but they do it because they learn that doing what we ask is MORE rewarding.

A behaviourist at my local trainers said to me that dogs have a sense of "fairness" (we were teaching "leave it" at the time) and that it's important to keep this in mind when training, I find this a nice way to look at it.

[runlikethewind]

Hi ClareMarsh

Please could you explain that she meant by fairness. I like the sound of that but would like to understand what she meant.

Dibbythedog

You call tell the dogs that return to their owners (who don't use rewards; be that play, treat, verbal praise at the far end of the scale) - they use fear and punishment as threats if they don't. The dogs' body language is submissive and actually very upsetting to watch. These are the dogs people think 'do things out of respect and love for their owners'. It's not that. Dogs do return to their abusive owners of course (it's something similar to how wives find it difficult to leave their abusive husbands)

[ClareMarsh]

Hi ClareMarsh

Please could you explain that she meant by fairness. I like the sound of that but would like to understand what she meant.

Well we didn't discuss specifically what she meant as it was said in the context of discussing teaching "leave it" so I'll give you some background.

I was talking about how Ted likes to find and eat fox poo, worms, chestnuts (and other things he shouldn't) and how I'd really focussed on teaching him a good leave it but that it didn't always work outside and (at the time) I needed to be stood right next to him with a visible treat for him to leave/drop whatever it was I wanted him to. I was (at the time) wondering if the treat being such an obvious part of the training was a problem and she was saying no that he would start to learn that if he left something that was of importance to him that I WOULD give him something in return. She said that I should work on having him leave things when he was further away (and explained how to do this) from me and also when a treat wasn't in his line of sight but that I should always give him something for leaving something that he wanted when asked. And this is when she said "dogs have a sense of fairness so always reward him for leaving things or he will start to think that you are not being fair, he gives something up, he gets nothing in return he will stop leaving things". Does this make more sense?

I would add that his leave it has come on in leaps and bounds and he now will sometimes even leave stuff that he wants before I have said anything. I can see him taking the decision to walk away himself and he also gets a reward for this too So it also seems to be teaching him what he should and shouldn't take which is great. I don't see the constant rewarding as bribery or him being spoilt but rather me treating him with respect.

[runlikethewind]

Ah yes it does. It is a nice concept

[emmabeth]

It is possible with some dogs, to transfer the immediate value of the reward (note, that doesnt HAVE to be food, but this depends on the dog, not on the handlers preferences) to the owner, as the person who causes the rewards to happen.

Ideally that would be the goal of all dog owners, but some dogs are harder to reward than others, and not all dogs think exactly the same way.

So, whilst one of my dogs will practically turn himself inside out for the opportunity to clicker train with me, as much because he adores learning and doing stuff and workign with me as because he likes rewards (you could give him bits of rice paper or ice as rewards there!), because IM the person who makes all that happen...

One of my other dogs couldn't give a stuff! She likes food she likes praise, and she is aware that I am the person that makes those things happen. But shes a sighthound, not a staffie x mongrel. She just doesn't THINK the same way he does, it is more rewarding for her to sleep than it is to work with me. I suspect her ideal reward would be a walk but that is quite difficult to apply as a training reward!

Most of her training is done by creating habits, as well as reward. She will recall because its always rewarding, but I couldn't teach her to close a door or put toys in a box.

So as well as reward, which again is not always food, and certainly shouldn't be an outright bribe, there are other things to think about. Mainly, preventing your dog doing the wrong thing in the first place, and creating a rock solid habit.

What I find positive training does, that other training methods do not - is it pushes you to think outside the box, to evaluate and train the dog YOU have, not the dog in the book or the one on the tv. The dog right in front of you. There are SO many ways to apply positive training, but you do sometimes have to think outside the box and step back a bit and think, and listen to your dog.

For a LOT of problems, (and this is hard to put into words so bear with me) - positive solutions mean you n eed to start BEFORE you have the actual problem.

So, positive methods CAN address the dog who does a runner at high speed, even though waving a roast chicken under the dogs nose won't fetch him back. Positive training starts out BEFORE the dog did a runner in the first place - by managing, (use a long line) by creating a habit (building a recall without allowing failure to be an option) and keeping the dog more interested in the owner, because of the inherent rewards, than in anything else.

If you havent dealt with the foundations, you can't build the tower block!

[runlikethewind]

Thanks Emmabeth for the info. I just looked up Susan Garrett - her 'inner circle' and recallers stuff sounds good - but v expensive! Shame. I would be interested to see what she does - she uses play instead of food?

[emmabeth]

There is a lot of free stuff of hers, via youtube and on her sites and facebook. I am saving up for some of her courses (and many many other courses!), but yeah she teaches how to transfer the value - I haven't yet fathomed out quite how she does that but I am working on it, its 'clicked' in my brain somewhere and fits nicely!

I would temper this enthusiasm i have though.. because as far as I am aware, Susan Garretts background is agility and collies - the further away from that type of dog-brain you get, the less applicable and less easy her methods are going to be to achieve results.

That said between posting on here in the last half hour, I have done a bunch of 3/5 minute sessions with Rocky, Errol and Ellie working on self control and also a lot of hand touch stuff. I got Rocky to the point where I can have him lay down and toss treats in the air, and he has to touch my hand, or do some tricks, then touch my hand before he gets his reward, and I am varying whether he gets the treats I have tossed or a treat from elsewhere so he really doesn't think he should focus on the immediately obvious treats.

We both enjoyed it!