Jindo and Recall

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jacksdad
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Jindo and Recall

Post by jacksdad »

A lot of what I read about Jindo dogs indicates they should never be let off leash because they are unreliable with recall. I have to wonder though if this not 100% actuate information.

Jindo are generally described as highly intelligent and driven hunters. my own association with my neighbor's Jindo backs this up. When Luna gets focused on prey she really focuses in on it. Cats, squirrels, gophers, rabbits etc.

However, I still can't help but think that just because of this that your Jindo doesn't have to be resigned to a life on leash. One site I found indicates that in Korea there aren't leash laws and the dogs can wonder around free. So they must be trainable after all or maybe they do come back a lot easier than people in the US think. Then just logic. makes no sense to develop a bred to hunt for you in place of a rifle or other weapon that you can't "control" or have come back to you and then continue to produce such a line of dogs. particularly since Jindos are supposed to be one of the "older breeds".

So, in addition to their described highly intelligent and independent nature and a strong desire to hunt, they are described as extremely loyal to their person. Which also makes me think that there is traits in there to capitalize on for developing a solid recall. And I also found an east coast trainer who claims to have a Jindo and posted a video of it being called away off leash from a deer. But this trainer uses methods I would never use nor would we advocate here. which makes me think a pretty darn good recall can be built with positive methods that might actually be even better than what this guy accomplished.

So my questions are ....
first, am I just being "wishful" in my thinking that this can be done?

second, in addition to normal basic recall training, since you are dealing with a dog who finds hunting a positive and reinforcing experience what else can you do to build a solid recall? how to do you complete with the drive to hunt?

I told my neighbor I would ask.
JudyN
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by JudyN »

My thoughts are that if you keep your dog on lead the whole time you have a good chance of ending up with behavioural problems, so you should do everything in your power to get round this. Maybe in Korea people aren't so concerned about their dog taking off after something and possibly catching it?

In a way, an intelligent dog with a really strong hunting instinct may be more directable than your average dog who just loves chasing squirrels or whatever because it's fun. I say this because Jasper will chase squirrels for fun, and is OK with cattle and horses, but rabbits and deer are a completely different matter. They are work, and he's going to do it properly... When we go to the heath where he often sees rabbits he can be really keen to get off the lead and feels like he'll take off like an exocet missile when I release him, but when I do let him off he actually slows down and uses all his senses to survey the area. He may also walk very close behind me at my pace because maybe in his mind we are hunters together looking for the right opportunity. So if the dog feels that what you ask him to do is part of the process of hunting, maybe he's more likely to obey you. (I'm sure Nettle will tell you if I'm talking rubbish! :lol: )

One method I've heard of helping with recall for hunting dogs is to throw a treat a few feet away from you, recall your dog, and then ask it to 'Find it!' So you are mimicking another dog in a pack which has spotted a potential prey and is calling for help.

Jasper's recall isn't 100% - he's very good if he's not found a rabbit, deer, or dried up sandwich, but if he has, I've no chance. He's worse in some places than others - if we go to the New Forest he's switched on before we've even parked and I can't remember the last time we went there where he hasn't taken off after a deer and come back without a new collection of injuries. Last time most of the walk he was on lead as even after chasing to the point of exhaustion he was still pumped up and ready to go again, so I'm very sadly resigning myself to the possibility of not being able to go there again. There's still a risk in the places we walk locally that he could injure himself badly but I accept that risk and given the choice, I think he would too.
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Nettle
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by Nettle »

As most of you know, I hunt with my dogs, and I don't mean shoot over them - I take them to suitable places and they find, catch and return with their spoils to me. So I am perfectly at home with genuine prey drive and that moment when the eyes glaze and the ears turn off, with the whole animal suffused with the need to kill. Because I live in a heavily-populated country with draconian hunting laws, my dogs need to be responsive to me, and they need to come back when I want them back. They are only ever on the lead on roads, by railway lines and other potentially hazardous places.

This is unremarkable here - in UK, hunting dogs of many breeds need to work under strict control. A pack of hounds generally comprises 30-40 animals, off lead. Many people work their dogs singly or in pairs. This covers all UK hunting breeds.

This is achieved by:

Selective breeding for co-operation, intelligence and the ability to work independently or under close control as the situation decrees.
Training right from the get-go
Management and manipulation of potentially risky situations
Working as a partner within the natural desires of the dog
Knowing when to quit! and which situations to avoid.


I don't know much at all about how Jindos work in their native country. I suspect the co-operative nature is not necessary - but if it were needed, it is easy enough to breed in a few generations.


Unfortunately, I have found many pure breed enthusiasts to be rather romantic about how their breed works. Most insist that their dogs are loyal, in a sort of vague fluffy manner, as in if there is nothing better on offer they will come home eventually. So I can't speak for the Jindo, but if anyone does know actually in detail how they hunt ie working with their human partner or working for themselves, I'd be in a much better position to comment on whether they could or could not have a reliable recall, given that no live dog has a 100% recall.

If co-operation were bred for and trained in from the beginning, I reckon it could work, with the caveat that careful management would be needed, as it is with all hunting dogs, to set the dog up for success, which includes leading it not into temptation.
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Nettle
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by Nettle »

JudyN, to address your comments separately - yes you are right there :wink: . When person and dog hunt as a team, the bond is very strong, and therefore so is the - I won't call it obedience as it's something more - huntsmen call it "The Golden Thread' which binds human and hound(s).
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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jacksdad
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by jacksdad »

Let me see what I can dig up on how they were used traditionally and or currently in regards to hunting.

I hadn't really thought about "loyalty" being a bit over romanticized. I suppose if the dogs felt loyalty in the way we humans romanticize the idea in relation to our dogs, there would be no need for recall training at all. In which case deep bonded to a specific or limited number of people might be a better way to phrase the trait trying to be described as "loyal".

Again, observations of a single example, but I can see the a bit more "intense" preference for a single or very limited number of people Luna. She is most defiantly not "lab like" when it comes to people. But then again neither is Jack, but for different reasons.

Ok, so more research is called for.

Fortunately there are literally just a couple places that Luna can be taken around here and let off leash safely with even a 50% recall. one is a beach that is enclosed by cliffs on all sides except the ocean side and the way in or out is down some stairs. Then of course there are some enclosed Little League fields.
Ari_RR
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by Ari_RR »

We used to let Ari off leash is large nature parks much more often when he was younger, then we do now (he is 14 months).
I am not that worried about him running after a deer or a rabbit. He would chase him for a min or 2, then decide that it's too much trouble and come back.
But I am worried about him running into other off leash dogs. He is unneutered, and still often lacks manners when interacting with other dogs, so I don't want to take a chance of him meeting another dog without me being near by.

This is not good, he needs a free run... But he gets it at the dog park for the time being.

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Ari, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Sept 2010 - Dec 2018.
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emmabeth
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by emmabeth »

Mmm...

I would take a lot of what is said about Jindo behaviour and their original job, with a pinch of salt. It might be true that the original Jindo dogs were used to hunt - notably, to hunt things that they then guarded, rather than things they would fetch back to the owner. The owner then locating the dogs probably by the noise they made when they had felled a deer or boar... and recapturing them that way (being the person who CAN drag the Deer or Boar home, the jindo's following the person with the food!).

Since its very difficult to get a jindo out of Korea, I wonder how many outside of Korea are true Jindos and how many are look-a-likes, the difference only being the temperament/behaviour really. I would also suspect that the very vast majority of Jindo in Korea are either feral dogs who roam free and thus have no one to recall TO, or are yard dogs kept chained up, and as such are VERY far removed from hunting dogs with any desire to work with a human.

This is mainly guesswork - but take a look at how many Labradors are actually working gundogs or even bred from working gundogs vs how many are purely pets and have never even heard a gunshot, and then also consider how much urban legend and national pride is involved.

If you go to australia one of the most popular breeds is the Aussie cattle dog, but there are more of those chained up in peoples yards or in the backs of their Utes than there are herding cattle.

The Jindo for me falls into a similar category as akitas, shiba inu's and slightly more broadly, huskies, malamutes etc - these are all VERY fiercely independent breeds who are often extremely hard to read and certainly in the case of the first two breeds, have for a long time been bred for their looks and not just without much regard to their temperament, but on the understanding that people will manage that by kennelling/yarding them as they only own them to show and breed more. (Certainly the Akita has suffered massively for this and the American Akita bears very little resemblance to the original Akita Inu, and probably very little genetic resemblence either!).

So those are things to bear in mind... and if you GOT a Jindo, I would deal wtih that dog as an individual, train the dog you have!
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bendog
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by bendog »

I suppose if the dogs felt loyalty in the way we humans romanticize the idea in relation to our dogs, there would be no need for recall training at all. In which case deep bonded to a specific or limited number of people might be a better way to phrase the trait trying to be described as "loyal".
I would say Ben is loyal. He has been allowed off lead from a pup, and never strays. Recall training seems to me to be only neccessary in order to get the dog back to you when there might be dangers (e.g. approaching a road) or when your dog is doing something that you feel is unacceptable (eating something, rolling in poo, chasing a rabbit etc).

For example, Judy's Jasper always comes back eventually. He just doesn't always come back when she wants him! I don't think that means he's not loyal.

If it was possible to let dogs range wherever they wanted and do whatever they wanted then recall training would not be neccessary, but I suspect that the dog would still stick around wherever it's owner is.

I definately think ALL dogs can be recall trained, if trained properly from a young age. And I believe the vast majority of dogs enjoy being allowed to run off lead. But perhaps if you have a dog with a strong hunting drive then you need to be selective about where you let your dogs off.

I allow Ben off lead much nearer to roads than I do Sash, because I trust his recall more. Sash I will put back on a lead way before we reach a road just in case.
jacksdad
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by jacksdad »

Emma, your right about the "is it a real Jindo or not" concern. a couple of rescue sites I was reading on were talking about how some shelters/rescues have miss identified Jindo's as Shepard crosses and other similar breeds. Then on the other hand some shelters/rescues have deliberately miss labeled dogs that have a similar look to tap into the desire to have a "rare breed"

I am fairly confident that Luna is the real deal. There is a fairly large Korean population not far from where I live in the Fremont/San Jose area. Then there is a fairly large Korean population down in Los Angeles so true Jindos are becoming more common in this area. Though still in LOW numbers compared to other breeds. One rescue also commented on poor breeding practices and all that comes with that.

The Jindo does fall into the akitas, shiba inu's spitz type dog category. But I hadn't really thought about things along your working Lab vers pet Lab analogy. That defiantly puts a possible spin on the possible behavior traits attributed to the breed.

One thought I did have is because this breed really is a rare breed, how much of the "training issues" are really "training issues" verse people just not having experience with these dogs and are just parroting what "everyone knows" without any really backing or foundation. but wasn't sure if that was wishful or misguided thinking.

I see how Luna acts when she see's squirrels, cats and deer, so I can see the challenges, but I can't help but still think that it is possible to reach a level of training that would allow her to be off leash in carefully selected places. Places where if she did run after a squirrel/bunny no harm will come to her such as running out into traffic or off into the woods and getting lost etc.

Even with Jack who's recall is continually getting better I don't just let him off leash just anywhere. He has no concept of cars being dangerous and if he gets going after a squirrel or cat the world could end and he wouldn't notice. The difference between him and Luna though is soon as the "prey" disappears he looses interest. she keeps going. she also stalks, he is a "bull in a china shop". he is about the chase, but I believe it's safer to assume she is in it for the kill until determined otherwise.

I guess because I don't have experience with her level of prey drive I was second guessing my self in my advice on training recall. But if she was my dog I would be inclined to try exactly what you ended your post on, train the dog I have, verse worry about "conventional wisdom" by people who may or may not know what they are talking about. And just be aware of the "weak points" such a with Jack, there is NO calling him away from food he finds right now. With Luna, I doubt you could call her away from a cat.
emmabeth
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by emmabeth »

I think if you train 'the dog you have', going through the stages of long lines, playing hide and seek, being selective about where you let them off - you will find out what is safe and possible and what is not.

To me, thats the sane and sensible thing to do regardless of a breeds particular 'lore' - sure you MIGHT not end up with a dog who can go off lead wherever you fancy, but even if the dog always stays on a long line, you might find the training gives you some level of safety, as a back up, just in case they get loose.

Better that than to never bother and have absolutely NO hope when an accident occurs!

What I would definitely do, and this applies to any dog not just the 'run forever' types, is to teach a distance sit that overrides anything and everything - often dogs who couldnt manage to recall CAN manage to sit!
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jacksdad
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by jacksdad »

that's a cool idea, distance sit. going to have to try that with Jack.

I don't think Luna's person is looking for off leash anywhere/everywhere (Where we live even with a Lab or other typical dog this isn't safe/realistic) or expects Luna to act like the local border collie/aussie mix that just seems to have a natural recall/stick near his people. Rather I think she is looking for more like what you describe and I have with Jack. A good enough recall that she can let Luna off leash as couple of spots that are safe and and be able to have a pretty reliable recall. I can think of three, maybe for spots it is safe to let a dog off in our area other than a dog park, it's where I let Jack run free and I think with some work Luna can for sure use a couple of them, maybe even all.
Jindo
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Re: Jindo and Recall

Post by Jindo »

:I I know this is a week old but I just wanted to let you know from my own experience with my dogs.

I haven't trained my dogs for off leash walking or calling them back.
Gong-ju will always always always come back, even if it isn't right away after we call her, she will always return to my side.
Sonata may take a little longer but she returns to my side as well.
I used to take them to a nearby park with a trail where I'd let them off leash, they'll go berserk and run around everywhere for awhile but they will come back when they feel like they've been too far away from me which would be about 10-15 minutes. Not once have they tried to run away from me and neither one of my dogs have played the 'chase me' game when I needed them back.
I know you want to talk about training and such but what I'd like to say is, I know my dogs won't run off on me, because I know they love me. Like many other dogs, if they're attached to you and home then they'll return.
I'd say the only problem is if there are other dogs around. Gong-ju is alright with other dogs as long as they don't bother her, if they leave her alone then she leaves them alone. Sonata is not good with other dogs so I'm always careful to see who is around before releasing them.
So if you want to get a Jindo and do some off-leash walking, make sure the dog is well socialized with other dogs so there is no problems.
My dogs have no problem with people when they're off leash, they don't bother approaching other people, they ignore them or turn the other way.

This is me walking my dog at nearby school track. She's 'off leash.'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1GZgkEt ... e=youtu.be
I decided to mess with her once and let her run in the open field above the track, it's huge. She went running off everywhere then I hid myself, after a minute she realized she couldn't see me so she came running back looking for me. When she found me she just ran back to the field.
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