petting a dog

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Nettle
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Re: petting a dog

Post by Nettle »

I have to disagree with you there, fosterdogs. It is totally unreasonable to expect dogs to enjoy touch they find unpleasant (patting) in an area of which they are protective (the head) from people they have never met before and have no trust in or liking for. This is how people get bitten and nice dogs gets euthanased - a problem caused by people for no reason other than to satisfy their own egos.

Nor would you accept random intimate touching from strangers. You would accept it from medical professionals and people you love, but definitely not someone who just walked up and grabbed at you somewhere really personal.

We teach our dogs to be well-behaved at the vet, with the groomer, the dog-walker, people with whom they need to be comfortable, and if we have a lick of sense, we accustom them to these people and to their type of touching before we need to have them groomed or medicated - then we build up their trust in these specific people. My dogs know that they must accept whatever the vet needs to do, and they will with good grace, but there is no way they have to accept being touched by people who don't have to rub their hands on them for their own pleasure. Nor do we have the right to stand passively by while strangers touch our dogs even though we have asked them not to. It is our responsibility to protect our dogs in all situations.

Otherwise we lose their trust, and deservedly so. Socialising is not about dogs having to submit to things they fear and hate. It is about making them comfortable in our world, and that includes protecting them where necessary.
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ladybug1802
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Re: petting a dog

Post by ladybug1802 »

dogs56 wrote:I would like my dog to be petted by strangers because it is important. Sometimes other people like the groomer, vet, dog walker have to interact with my dog.
Erm....WHY is it 'important' for strangers to pet your dog??????? Vet/groomer etc interacting with your dog is totally different and separate to forcing your dog to take random pettings from people she doesnt know and wont meet again when she clearly doesnt like it.

I'm with runlikethewind.....I am out of this now, as you (OP) dont seem to be listening to the great advice you have got. To be honest I sense a bit of a troll element in this.....
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Nettle
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Re: petting a dog

Post by Nettle »

Me too. I am now retiring from this thread - but am always happy to help with any genuine issues.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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ladybug1802
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Re: petting a dog

Post by ladybug1802 »

fosterdogs wrote:I agree that a dog should get accustomed to strangers and their approaches. Some people will pet a dog over the head no matter what you tell them. I foster dogs and it is so important to socialize them well so they are used to people and how people greet them, to children and how they approach them. By the time puppies reach about 4 months old, the puppy should learn to accept being petted by strangers, meeting other dogs, being handled by a veterinarian or groomer, and meeting a wide variety of people. Under-socialized pups often become fearful, shy, unconfident, anxious, unhappy, unstable and sometimes even fear-aggressive. Such dogs are hard to live with, and the person responsible is the owner.
Yes this is all wel and good when socilaising puppies, but this view is often totally unreasonable, and likely to make things worse, with adult dogs. If had the musguided view with my boy when I got him that the more people I had around him and tried to get him around the better, and it would get'him used to it'.....WRONG! It made him much much worse. Had I carried on with what you suggest he would have eventually bitten someone and then who knows what would have happened.....but that would have been MY fault, not his, for not listening to him. He is now a lot better with being around people, but I never ever let strangers touch him, like I saY, unless its part of our training....why do they need to?

I really do not understand why people petting a dog on their head is such a big deal for people......the dog doesnt like it so make sure people dont do it! End of!
Sarah83
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Re: petting a dog

Post by Sarah83 »

I'm with them guys above me. I fail to see why it is important or necessary for a dog to tolerate random people touching them for no good reason. I don't like strangers touching me, I don't expect my dog to like strangers touching him. And Shadow was no more difficult to live with than Rupert. Shadow hated to be touched by strangers, Rupert solicits it shamelessly in a lot of situations.
ClareMarsh
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Re: petting a dog

Post by ClareMarsh »

Also this seems focussed on the dog letting people (now the vet, groomer etc) pet the top of the head. Well you pay the vet and the groomer so if you tell them not to PET the top of the head and they still do it then find another one. Touching the head for the purposes of examining or grooming should be worked up to the dog tolerating it but only if it is absolutely necessary.

I am beginning to think this is a wind up, in fact I would prefer that it is than that the dog is being unnecessarily stressed because the owner can't or won't protect it. I think I'm done here too now.
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emmabeth
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Re: petting a dog

Post by emmabeth »

Ill have another go...

For the OP and also for fosterdogs

If you work from the principle that you won't get your dog to actively LIKE something he dislikes, and that it is unfair to attempt to do this - therefore you take every possible step to prevent it, such as telling people not to, removing their hands, blocking them out of the way...

AND you teach your dog that in some circumstances they may have to allow people to touch/handle them, by using clicker training or similar to prepare them for this..

THEN you can have a dog who trusts you, if you say 'yeah, this person has to touch you', they say 'ok, I am not happy about this but I trust you that its ok'.

If however you decide that a dog MUST tolerate this from anyone and everyone and you take NO steps to prevent it, your dog feels EVERY time someone goes to touch him that he/she is completely on their own with no support or help from you. You reduce the trust in you, because you are allowing things to happent hat your dog is clearly telling you they don't like.

You have a relationship with your dog, it is a two way street. YOUR job is to listen, understand, manage safely - so that means teaching your dog to handle what is necessary, and PREVENTING your dog from having to handle what is UNnecessary.

It is not necessary for people to touch your dog out in the street - and I am damn sure if someone tried to tell you it was important that your child or your partner accepted physical contact from strangers without complaint you would think they were thoroughly unreasonable and mad! Even though it is just as true for us as it is for dogs, that SSOMETIMES we have to allow strangers to do unpleasant physical and intimate things to us!

Would you honestly feel happy if random strangers ran up to YOU and patted you on the head.. or the bum.. or the chest, or grabbed you for a hug, or just kissed you? At best you would be shocked and freaked out, at worst thats illegal and you'd have a case for assault!
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runlikethewind
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Re: petting a dog

Post by runlikethewind »

I am going to make just a few comments in the hope that others might read this:

Fosterdogs - you are right that puppies need to be socialised and exposed to many different environments and rewarded heavily along the way, but you fail to realise that even pups who then might show a little fear during these socialisation periods need to be given the chance for a break - just as you would not leave a pup swamped with boisterous other dogs and puppies and left to fend for himself. You are showing the pup he has a way out and this then will give him the confidence to go in again and accept touch. You have to go at the pups's pace. If, as YOU recommend, continue to expose the pup to petting AND you are NOT listening to the signs your pup is telling you AND you let anyone and everyone carry on petting your puppy and ignore any anxiety signals, you have then given that pup an unpleasant fear experience he will THEN take into adult life. So think carefully about the advice you give.

Dogs56 - Are you an English speaker? If you are, I am finding it difficult to understand why, since you post the same questions time and time again, you are not 'getting it'. The advice is listed out in a clear format and even when someone asks you a question (to help with further advice), you ignore it. Are you actually aware of this? Your pup is already showing fear signals with people and unless you get a grip on this, your pup will continue to take this into adult life and possibly get more fearful. You have been shown ways to help AND desensitise your pup under controlled situations - you owe it to your pup to do this. I think it is fairly obvious your pup will not be the life and soul of the party - all dogs are different, some are friendlier than others. This is normal and, direct as I am here, about time you realised that. You are trying to make your pup into something he may never be - and at worst a fear biter, because you HAVE NOT listened to him and supported him. BUT you can work on the important stuff like vets, walkers etc. The way you write your posts smacks of wind up and I personally find you a waste of time and energy - but I write here now to help others.
Ari_RR
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Re: petting a dog

Post by Ari_RR »

On a lighter note, folks - we attended today the annual AKC/TICA "Meet the Breeds" event in New York. 160 dog breeds, 50 cat breeds, in one place, lots of people, crowd... Everyone wants to come over and meet (and pet!) the animals. Now, these were not your average household dogs, of course.. Most are CHs, with a lot of experience in show rings, accustomed to a lot of strangers around, but still it was quite amazing to see how patient and accommodating the dogs were with a heavy crowd of unfamiliar people and other dogs around, allowing touching and petting and picture taking.

Putting Rhodesian Ridgebacks aside, my personal favorite of this event was an Irish Wolfhound boy. I had not realized before how enormous they are in size. He was one of the very few dogs there whom people could not touch, by the way.
Most other dogs, from Newfoundlands and St Bernards to Bolognese and Russian Toy Dogs were all accessible to anyone.

As were cats.. Some of which were bigger then some dogs (Main Coon cats can be over 20 lbs), and some of which behaved like dogs. It turned out, for example, that Turkish Angora cats enjoy walks on leashes. :lol:

Cheers
Eugene
runlikethewind
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Re: petting a dog

Post by runlikethewind »

Ari - that is fine but the OP needs to realise she has a different personality of dog (and some dogs do still find shows very stressful). This is likely tp make the OP feel even more like she hasn't a 'normal' dog and dare I say, in support of her, 'inadequate'.

Now I must step away from this thread. It is taking up too much concern in my mind.
Ari_RR
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Re: petting a dog

Post by Ari_RR »

Yes, RLW, indeed... While all the people enjoyed being able to come up to almost any dog at the show, and touch it, I am afraid that some may try putting their own dogs in this extremely stressful situation. This is the downside. I wish there was some sort of warning there, explaining to visitors that while these highly trained dogs tolerate the environment, it's very stressful nonetheless and should not be replicated at home.
ladybug1802
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Re: petting a dog

Post by ladybug1802 »

I wouldnt even take Dylan to a show like that - the sheer volume of people would be too much for him I am sure.

Seems odd the OP hasnt comne back and responded.....makes me feel this is definitely a troll type post.
Ari_RR
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Re: petting a dog

Post by Ari_RR »

Absolutely.. We didn't take Ari, just us 2-legged attended..
ladybug1802 wrote:Seems odd the OP hasnt comne back and responded.....makes me feel this is definitely a troll type post.
But excellent thoughts and comments have been posted on this anyway, will be of value to all readers, regardless of the OP's motives here. Its a legitimate and important topic to cover, for the benefit of many others.
jacksdad
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Re: petting a dog

Post by jacksdad »

There are two concepts that were ignored by two people in this thread. The "it depends" concept and the "take each dog as it's own individual" concept.

There is no denying some dogs out there just absolutely LOVE people and more the merrier. the more touching, petting etc they can get makes them feel good. BUT there are also dogs out there that this is absolutely WRONG for them since people coming up to them is scary and/or stressful. For these dogs there is NO benefit to making them "accept" random people touching them. NONE WHAT SO EVER.

I do believe it is absolutely necessary to help these dogs for who people are scary and stressful to learn to be relaxed and comfortable as possible with humans near them so they aren't living in a world of fear and stress every time an unknown human comes near or looks at them etc. BUT part of doing this means doing exactly what we have advised. Keep people that have ZERO need to be touching your dog AWAY. Helping "socialize" a fearful dog does NOT mean making them accept touching. "Socializing" may simply mean working with them to the point they can be relaxed and comfortable with the sight of humans and or humans being near, but NOT touching.

The other point a person forgot in this thread is that we don't know enough to really give complete advice to help the OP. The OP for whatever reason didn't provide complete information. So advising the "best practice" concept for clean slate puppies was dangerous. The OPs dog could have been a fearful adult for all we know and advising the "best practice" concept for puppies could have been setting up the OP and the dog for disaster such as biting.

Even with "clean slate" puppies the "best practice" advice for socializing a dog with the goal of not having a fearful dog NEEDs to also include the idea that "it depends". meaning you can't blindly follow this "best practice concept". doing so could end up creating a fearful puppy because you need to take each dog or puppy as an individual.

And lastly, in my opinion, even with dogs that absolutely LOVE people and LOVE being petted and touched etc, we STILL need to be protective of them. There are people out there that will do some VERY stupid things to dog even though they have no "evil" intent that could create a very disastrous situation. So even with these types of dogs we owe it to them to be selective who we let enter act with our dogs.
Jack Monzon
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Re: petting a dog

Post by Jack Monzon »

jacksdad wrote:I do believe it is absolutely necessary to help these dogs for who people are scary and stressful to learn to be relaxed and comfortable as possible with humans near them so they aren't living in a world of fear and stress every time an unknown human comes near or looks at them etc. BUT part of doing this means doing exactly what we have advised. Keep people that have ZERO need to be touching your dog AWAY. Helping "socialize" a fearful dog does NOT mean making them accept touching. "Socializing" may simply mean working with them to the point they can be relaxed and comfortable with the sight of humans and or humans being near, but NOT touching.
I agree.

You start to get a sense of who will behave around your dog and who won't. Loud people crashing up to you: No good.

I box out toddlers and children who come running up. I tell them my dog will bite them if they come any nearer. Always works to make them scram.

I have a fearful dog, and he has done exceptionally with people who are distracted by something else and focused on me. E.g.: I ran across a guy in the park one day who was lost, looking for a particular path. The directions I gave him were complicated, and he stayed focused on me the entire time, ignoring my dog 100%, which my dog loved and took the opportunity to sniff the guy up and down, even touching his hand with his nose. The guy didn't even budge.

I think it's necessary to help a fearful dog for the reasons you mention, but you have to do it slowly and move a millimeter at a time. Watch your dog's body language.
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