Pandering (acknowledging needs) v staying put (desensitise)

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bendog
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:42 am

Re: Pandering (acknowledging needs) v staying put (desensitise)

Post by bendog »

I agree it's a fine line.

The other day we were on the canal and Poppy was scared of some fishermen. Unfortunately there was no other way home (except swim!) so we had to pass them. Instead of dragging her past though I did pick her up. Ideally I would have been a bit more patient, waited until she felt comfortable, and then encouraged her to walk past herself. And if it happens again thats what I'd try to do, but on this occasion I was late for Uni and so I couldn't.

If she turns out to hate the canal in general then we won't walk there, but since she's so young I think if she can get over her fear of fishermen she would enjoy it.

I take it as a positive sign that if she is scared she looks at me for a treat rather than stressing and barking or pulling - (if she looks really frightened and therefore likely to pull to escape the scary thing then we run away!)

She's only a pup so a lot of "normal" things are still scary to her, like cars and people, even though she encounters these often. I can't avoid these situations for her whole life or she will always be scared of them. But I try to let her choose what she feels comfortable with. She's ok with cars and people passing now, but she doesn't like them to touch her. if I meet someone who wants to touch her I instead ask them to crouch and let her approach and sniff them with out them touching her and she's showing more and more curiosity and willingness to approach people as time goes by. When my brother first came to visit she wasn't sure about him, but by the end of the evening she was getting belly rubs from him happily.

Ben used to hate walking on busy roads. Since we live in the country this is mostly avoidable. If we tried to go near a busy road he would sit and refuse to budge, or pull like a train to escape. But occasionally we have to walk on a busy road for a little while. Now he still doesn't enjoy it, but he will walk nicely. This is important because when we move house we will have to cross a busy road to get to the field, so I need to know that, even if he doesn't like it, he will do it.
Ari_RR
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Re: Pandering (acknowledging needs) v staying put (desensitise)

Post by Ari_RR »

Perhaps size plays a role in how we approach this.

With smaller size dogs we have an option, if everything else fails, to simply pick her up and carry to the vet, or across the busy street, or into the elevator. She may not be very pleased being forced in this manner, but if really needed - this can be done. So, with this, and Emmabeth's point that true emergencies are rare, maybe this is not so important for smaller ones.

But it may be different with large dogs. The ones you can't pick up.. Heck, there are ones you can't even move without a tractor if they really don't want to move! And while true emergencies are rare, that's where the stakes are really high. If you want to go to the woods, and the dog wants to go to the park - it's fine to end up at the park where he enjoys himself and has fun.
But if you want to cross the road to get to the vet because your dog just had an accident, and your 100 lb dog hates the vet, hates crossing the road, would rather stay put, and there is no way to carry 100 lbs - perhaps in this case I'd like my dog to be able to do what's needed, rather then what's fun and low stress.

To me - this is a no brainer, there is no question that I want Ari to be trained to do what's needed (meaning - what I say is needed, rather then what he wants), when the situation demands.
The question is - how to train for this. I don't have a good answer, other then "very gently, within +R principles". But we'll keep working on this, keep trying to build up the tolerance level for doing something other then what he wants to do, while also building bond and trust. These are not mutually exclusive if done the right way. Not knowing exactly what the right way is - we need to go slow, and carefully. Very slow and very carefully.

Cheers
Eugene
Last edited by Ari_RR on Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ari, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Sept 2010 - Dec 2018.
Miles, Rhodesian Ridgeback, b. Nov 2018
JudyN
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Re: Pandering (acknowledging needs) v staying put (desensitise)

Post by JudyN »

Ari_RR wrote:The question is - how to train for this. I don't have a good answer, other then "very gently".
I agree. The standard 'dominance' approach seems to require that the dog finds the alternative to going into the scary situation - i.e. the consequences of resisting you - even more scary. I don't want my dog to be that intimidated by me!

We had a good example of pandering vs ignoring your dog's sensitivities this morning. We went to the woods via a slight detour, and met up with Jasper's friend Alfie on the way, so he was quite happy. Bumped into the dog walker who he is wary of because she often has a mastiff with her who is like an over-friendly Sherman tank, so he went off the path and stood away from us till they'd gone past, then came back and had a treat. I tend to think this is good as he is able to use his own coping strategies and deal with the situation. When we came to the cricket pitch in the middle of the woods, though, there were three noisy beardies who he knows, and a couple of young labs and terriers looning around yapping their heads off. Once I'd have stayed and chatted to the owners while he stood on the sidelines (when he was younger he'd have joined in, and if he spotted a ball being thrown he'd still now go to chase it), but he just stood by me and looked at me with great big worried eyes so I took the hint and we left.

We'll probably avoid the woods for a few days now as that's enough excitement for him to be going on with.
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
jacksdad
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Re: Pandering (acknowledging needs) v staying put (desensitise)

Post by jacksdad »

Ari_RR wrote:To me - this is a no brainer, there is no question that I want Ari to be trained to do what's needed (meaning - what I say is needed, rather then what he wants), when the situation demands.
The question is - how to train for this. I don't have a good answer, other then "very gently, within +R principles".
part of the answer is really understanding that you are ALWAYS training. all enter actions with your dog is an opportunity to train. That training is not limited to a few "formal 5 minute" sessions a day.

Also to proactively think about typical situations that are difficult for just about all dogs, such as going to the vet and work on them so they aren't that big a deal for your dog. I am as guilty as most for NOT doing this, but that is the starting point for your question.
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Nettle
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Re: Pandering (acknowledging needs) v staying put (desensitise)

Post by Nettle »

Yes, it's about positive education before they ever need to see the vet or have a veterinary procedure. It's about handling all over, meeting the clippers, the brushes, all that kind of thing, before they need to. It's sitting watching the traffic go by at a distance where it is interesting not terrifying.

In class training, it's about giving the shy dog enough space to watch while feeling safe, and allowing it to join in when it feels ready. Only the dog knows when it feels ready.

Easy to forget they are animals and are not programmed to understand these situations. The primitive part of the brain tells them "keep away this isn't safe". We say "it's okay, get in there". We have to time what we say and when we say it so we aren't lying to our dogs - if we tell them it's safe and then it isn't, it takes time to build up their trust again.

We keep them in an alien world - easy to forget that also. It's a constant wonder to me that dogs are so obliging when we want them to do so much that is uncomfortable, unnatural or just plain horrid.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog

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