Pandering (acknowledging needs) v staying put (desensitise)

[runlikethewind]

Hi there

I have a question - a very generalised one of course...

This is a hypothetical question but one which I would imagine occurs day in, day out in training classes (for example) or anywhere with a bit of 'stress' and it is about recognising the need of the dog over and above your needs, the needs of people around you and anything else that is going on:

Say a dog is more or less enjoying an activity and then something happens (whatever it is) which makes the dog want to leave (there is no reactivity, just a short of shutting down, I want to go look). Do you acknowledge this need and say ok we can go now and take them away (until the next time ie next week for example) or do you try to stop them from shutting down/running to the door etc, coax them back in (maybe do some games as well) and maybe do some work with them (try to identify what upset them) and do some desensitisation - if this was possible and the dog was ok? These are two very different ways of dealing with a fear and it struck me it could be of interest to discuss this!

Would people see the 1st as 'pandering to the dog's insecurities' or would it create a better relationship with the dog to acknowledge what he is trying to say to you. Would that mean he could handle the same situation better next time? Or could you do a mix of both? Remove him from the environment for a few moments and see if he can handle going back in again whilst you work hard on desensitisation this time.

Ps this is not a personal experience, not now anyway (it would have been very relevant a few years back)

[Sarah83]

It depends on the situation to be honest. Sometimes I may just leave and work on the problem at a later date. Sometimes I may just try to jolly Rupert along. Sometimes I may leave for a few minutes to let him relax then go back and do some desensitizing. I've had success with all three. I don't see leaving as pandering to his wishes, if he says he's uncomfortable with something then it's my job to figure out what he's uncomfortable with, why he's uncomfortable with it and to do my best to improve the situation for him. The jollying along usually comes when simply leaving isn't an option and it's something important such as getting up the steps on the ferry. He either had to walk up them or be carried and he doesn't like being picked up.

[Horace's Mum]

I think it depend a huge amount on the dog, the situation, and how well you can read your dog. I have done a mixture of all three, but I think the best option is to try and pre-empt the increase in stress and remove BEFORE they get to the point of wanting to run away/shut down. Obviously this isn't always possible when something happens that involves another dog, or unpredictable sounds etc, but in training classes you should after the first session have an idea of how much your dog can cope with, and just leave before you get to that point in the future. You would also need to take into account other things in life - if the dog is stressed from something else then you may need to shorten the session even further for that day, or back off in the session so there is not too much to cope with.

I think there is very rarely a time when you should turn straight back round and face the stressor (or stay put), with the possible exception of Sarah's example of getting on a ferry, there is almost always a way to give them a few mins space, work quietly on something different, let them breathe, before heading back in. Probably what I would do in most relatively minor situations is get the dog to a point where it can calm, then walk away from the stressor for 5-10mins (or more if you can) then walk quietly back for a few mins, make a big fuss, then call it a day.

Pandering is not acknowledging needs, pandering is spoiling by not creating guidelines for behaviour eg moving every time they want to get on the sofa/want your dinner/want to sleep in your bed. Acknowledging needs is communicating in the way that two living beings should be able to do - "I need the loo, please let me out" gets the door opened. Staying put is also not always the same as desensitising - it depends on what you do whilst staying put, if you just stand there hanging on to your barking, lunging dog then you are not desensitising, if you stay put whilst trying to distract/reward calm behviour in close proximity/reward looks away/reassure then if desensitisation was to work it would have the best chance.

[GundogGuy]

As someone who runs puppy classes and more formal obedience classes for older pups/adult dogs I often come up against this conundrum.

When I get a puppy who either sits behind the owners legs, at the door or (most often) at my wife's feet under the wee desk she sits at I ask the owners NOT to pander to the dog but to give it little/no attention at all. I keep a close eye on it while the other pups are off leash for play time and ensure it's not being bullied/cornered in any way (i.e. always has the option to escape a situation).
When I make the call to recall the pups and put them on the leash I ask that the shy one(s) remain off leash. I'd say that around 60% of the time, these wee shy pups come out to explore once all the other dogs are back on leash. After a couple or 3 weeks of that, the change in them is pretty remarkable and they become just as bold/playful as the other pups...
I need to keep a keen eye on collie pups in particular... these seem to react/agress more readily from a young age. In these cases I manage their environment so that over exposure (stress) is kept to a very controlled minimum until they learn to cope a better with the puppy class...

My more formal obedience classes are clicker training based classes and I get in some dogs that don't cope well the first few weeks (6 week block for this format). I have a 10 month old rough collie in one such class at the moment. Last week was week 1 and it was pretty nervous/unfocused to the point it would not take a treat from it's owners. It was pretty excited at the presence of the other dogs and a tad over stimulated by them. However, the first night is really just an introduction to the clicker and the start of the 'charging the clicker' process and I instructed the dogs owners to spend some time this week finding some food that the dog really switches on for. Failing that, a toy that it really loves. We'll see tonight how they have got on but as a backup, I'll take along some tuna chunks just in case.

So far, only twice have I sent dogs away from my class as being unsuitable for the class environment and worked with them 1:1. I interview prospective attendees before each block to get a feel for them and their dogs 'attitude' to the class situation and on occasion I'll insist on meeting them and the dog first. It becomes very apparent very quickly in a class situation if a dog is too far over threshold to be workable at that time.

It is very important not to inadvertently reward the dogs actions when it is feeling afraid/vulnerable or uncomfortable in a situation by removing it from the situation unless it is too far over threshold. I think this is what you mean by 'pandering', i.e. Lucky doesn't like it in here... lets get you outside, Lucky. So, next time the dog is subject to the stresses that a roomful of (perhaps unruly) dogs presents, wee Lucky will expect to be rewarded by being removed from the situation and if not, can get more stressed and less likely to adjust.

In the class situation I rarely do anything to actively bring about desensitization but find that if managed correctly, most dogs will desensitize naturally because they have not been rewarded for feeling insecure (as above) nor being forced further into a situation that they are not comfortable with.

By week 3 or 4 of my 6 week program I like to say "Where are all the barky dogs? Did you all get new dogs and not tell me?" When I say this, I very often see the realisation on the owners faces as they acknowledge that their dogs are actually a lot happier now than they were in week one. Even the owners who just don't do the work expected and are not performing as well as the rest of the class smile and nod...

So, I guess I'm saying that with careful management, the dogs will adjust to most situations naturally... Although, idiot owners are another story

[Ari_RR]

Good example with steps to the ferry... Ari had trouble with crossing anything (a small stream, for example) over a narrow wooden bridge... And we have plenty of those around here. We never tried to force him in any way, but tried to encourage him on many occasions, and eventually he got over his fear of wooden bridges. He once saw other dogs easily going on such bridge, and was just astonished by their bravery.. Perhaps that helped. Not an issue now, it only took a few successfull crossings to bring wooden bridges into his comfort zone. But we took our time getting there, at his pace.

Not always we have the luxury of time. One may find himself in a situation where you have to get on that ferry, and your dog has never seen one and doesn't want to go up the steps... And with a dog like Ari (90+ lbs) carrying him up is not an attractive option.

So, it would be nice if the dog was capable of venturing outside of his comfort zone when needed. Which really means, I think, trusting his human that "it's really OK", even if those ferry steps look a bit intimidating. And in order to develop the ability to trust the owner, perhaps it's not a bad idea to help the dog in dealing with certain uncomfort, rather then letting avoid? This is a fine line to walk, probably, but I would not necessarily adopt avoiding a new situation as the universal rule whenever the dog feels discomfort and wants to get out.. In many cases - yes, but in some cases where there is no danger or threat - I would try to encourage the dog to trust me that "it's OK", and explore the situation further.

Cheers
Eugene

[jacksdad]

with Jack I listen. if he wants to leave dog park, we do. If he wants to move on from this or that dog, we do. if he doesn't want to be touched by someone, I do my best to not allow it to happen. If that is pandering, well I guess i pander. But I am ok with that, and so is Jack because the result has been a dog who is calmer, and with some help overcoming his fears.

Now, do I go back and counter condition, desensitize etc? that all depends on the situation. if he was just bored and wants to go do something else on a walk, ok, no problem. on the other hand if he is showing fear, there is NOTHING to be gained by just hanging around and letting him get more afraid, more worked up, more anxious and stressed. And if it was a fear situation, do I "put together a plan to address it"...again, all depends. was it a one off odd ball situation? was it because were face to face with a coyote? Or was it a human or dog? some situations are not worth the effort or impossible to "fix", so management is the key. other situations, absolutely put the time and effort in, example in Jacks case people and dogs.

I absolutely agree with Horace Mum, developing your ability to read what your dog is telling you is about effective communication, which improves the relationship and trust which I have noticed improves (at least with Jack) his willingness to "listen" when I ask something of him.

A lot of what I do with him would probably be considered pandering by those into the "dominance theory" or you must be "firm and in charge" mind set. But I just look at the Jack of today verses the Jack of 2 years ago...I am going to continue to "pander"

[Nettle]

I always listen to my dogs. Hell, if I don't, who will? They know they can trust me to take them out of a situation in which they are bothered. They know they can ask me to help and I will.

That's what I'm for. My job is to take the stress away, not add to it.

Because of this trust, they would go up the ferry steps after telling me they weren't keen and then trusting me to help them - just as Sarah's dog did. It's because of their good relationship that her dog obliged - not because she was 'refusing to pander' to him. She listened, 'explained' and her dog did what was wanted. Wow, what a lovely gift.

[JudyN]

This is something that's often on my mind, as I have a dog who can be sensitive, and can respond to stress and frustration with quite spectacular tantrums. We used to show him as a puppy and tried to introduce him to lurcher racing, but he did kangaroo impersonations in the show ring and freaked out at the lurcher racing. A row of rosettes is of no value to him, so we simply stopped doing either. He also went to a couple of lurcher workshops but again, the situation got to him and we spent the whole time dealing with 'bad' behaviour that he didn't have an issue with in normal day-to-day life, so gained nothing from them.

Refusing to go where I want to go has been a problem recently. One time, it turned out that he had a nasty rash in between his back legs which I only realised later must have made him really uncomfortable, so pandering was the right option. He also often refuses to walk up to the woods unless I take a detour over the heath. I'm in two minds whether he actually dislikes the woods (he seems fine when he's there, but not as happy as when he's on heathland), in which case I don't want to force him to go there regularly, or whether he just prefers the heath. I walk a fine line between giving in to his whims, avoiding confrontation, and easing him into situations I feel he should be able to deal with. Bribery is often involved

If he refused to go up the ferry steps at present, I'd find it difficult to perusade him up (unless his love of sausage overcame his fear of the steps). But I want to get our trust to the level where he would be OK to go up the steps because he knows that if I want him to do it, it must be OK. I'm not going to do that by dragging him into scary situations and proving that I can't be trusted.

[Sarah83]

Because of this trust, they would go up the ferry steps after telling me they weren't keen and then trusting me to help them - just as Sarah's dog did. It's because of their good relationship that her dog obliged - not because she was 'refusing to pander' to him. She listened, 'explained' and her dog did what was wanted. Wow, what a lovely gift.

Words can't express how proud I was of him managing to overcome his fear and follow me up those steps. It's seemingly silly little things like this that make all the tears and hard work worthwhile I've learned to listen to him and to know when I can convince him to step outside of his comfort zone and when he's too far gone to be able to think. He's learned to trust me when I tell him something is safe. It's a far better relationship than if I'd simply forced him into countless scary situations.

Judy, you'll get there. Rupert going up those steps was a result of 7 years of blood, sweat and tears. He's an incredibly fearful dog, even today the world is full of Rupert Eating Monsters, but he's taught me so much. Patience, kindness, to not sweat the little things, to pick my battles carefully, that the end doesn't justify the means and that you can lead without dragging or forcing. And the relationship is certainly important, Rupert still goes into meltdown if he encounters a "monster" while out with anyone except me.

[Ari_RR]

My job is to take the stress away, not add to it.

True, indeed. Perhaps the job is also to teach the dog. To teach different things - how to listen, how to focus, how to interact with dogs and people... and how to handle unfamiliar environment and trust his/her humans. And like anything else, this needs controlled exercises. Just whispering in dog's ear and "explaining things" is, I am afraid, not enough. This has to be substantiated by experiences, where the dog is offered an opportunity to deal with a little bit of an unfamiliar situation, and gets rewarded when he deals with it nicely. This is not much different from teaching sit/stay commands. It needs a plan, a lot of patience, and absolutely needs the attention and ability to read your dog and make sure not to cross the line between "unfamiliar" and "scary". It also needs the ability to manage the environment, so you can proactively create these controlled "unfamiliar situations" for the dog to explore

We live in the country with the dog. Mother lives in the city in a high-rise building. Which gave a great opportunity to explore an unfamiliar thing - "The Elevator".
1st time - scary, didn't want to go in. No problem, let's just look at it from a distance for 10 sec. Good boy!!! Treats!!
Next time - still scary, but we looked at it for 30 sec. Good boy!!! Treats!!!
A few times later - hmm? what's inside there, can we take a look? Good Boy!!! Lots of treats!!! And so on..

There is value in finding such new situations (in a safe and controlled environment) and encouraging the dog to explore. It's work, it takes time and effort, but I it's a part of teaching.

[jacksdad]

Judy, I personally wouldn't call it pandering if Jasper doesn't want to go into the woods regardless of why. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. in the scope of things is it really that important he "love" the woods is the question not if your pandering or not. Jack sometimes is ok going into a wooded area, sometimes even seems to have fun. But not always. so we don't go into wooded areas all that often and if he looks like he isn't having fun or is shutting down (which sometimes he will the longer we are in or deeper we go into the woods), we go somewhere he will have fun and be relaxed and happy. I just don't see situations like this as a battle of wills or one were the human needs to "win". Particularly given there are things in the woods that could take us both down...Mountain lion for example. So if Jack's not "feeling" it, I am not going to force the issue. he might just know something I don't. I realize you don't have Mountain Lion in the UK, but even still I don't see the need to "force" the issue right now with Jasper.

In addition to the damage "dominance theory" has done to peoples beliefs/feelings/common knowledge regarding dog I think it's made it "wrong" to listen to our dogs. Listening to our dogs doesn't have to cross the line into pandering/spoiling etc anymore than when we listen to our own kids and don't cross that line.

[jacksdad]

True, indeed. Perhaps the job is also to teach the dog. To teach different things - how to listen, how to focus, how to interact with dogs and people... and how to handle unfamiliar environment and trust his/her humans. And like anything else, this needs controlled exercises.

I would agree with that. and if I may barrow from raising kids for second, things some times have to go in a particular order. there were things I didn't let my kids do a different ages because they hadn't yet reach a maturity level maybe physically or emotional or intellectually or life experience wise to be able to handle a particular experience yet.

I see a similar parallel with our dogs.

To barrow Judy and Jasper to illustrate what I mean. Lets say for example that Jasper is 110% afraid of going into a wooded area. helping him over come this fear so seeing/going into woods are no longer a stress for him is the right thing to do. HOWEVER is now the right time to tackle this fear. is he even ready for it. has he developed the right level of skills and trust and bond etc, etc to take on this particular fear. if not, then in my opinion it's not the right time and trying to tackle this particular "issue" at this time would create unnecessary stress and could possibly negatively affect Judy's other training projects with him.

So again assuming Jasper is afraid of the woods it would not be pandering to not force him to go into the woods. Heck in my opinion even if he isn't afraid, but just doesn't enjoy the woods it wouldn't be pandering to not go into the woods with him. Humans have preferences for what we find fun, why shouldn't our dogs. I fail to see how it listening to our dogs and not doing something they don't find fun to be anymore pandering than not doing something that scares them.

so in teaching our dogs I think we need to pay attention to what they are capable of doing "today" and if we see something new that needs to be worked realize that to tackle that something new may mean learning some "pre" skills so the dog can be successful.

[Ari_RR]

I agree.. Nothing to gain and a lot to loose in pressuring the dog into doing what he doesn't enjoy just because we think that it ought to be fun.

But unfortunately sometimes this cannot be avoided. Like, for example, going to the vet.
Under the best of circumstances, just a routine check up, Ari dislikes visits to the vet.  Perhaps this is a side effect of an operation he had to have there. Not only he is afraid of the vet. He feels that the vet (and all staff at the clinic - receptionist, assistants, everyone)  might harm us and becomes protective.. That's on a good day, but add to that him feeling physical discomfort or pain, or other dogs at the clinic - and this is clearly a very stressful situation. Which unfortunately cannot be avoided by not going there. What needs to happen is, simply put, dog doing something that he doesn't want to do or is afraid of doing.

Vet's visits is not something we can really control. Vet's office can be packed, it may be hot or cold, there can be badly behaving dogs waiting their turn, or badly behaving owners.. All kinds of factors that can make things even worse. 

And so I am looking for ways to practice such things, starting very slowly, like jacksdad says - keeping in mind dog's abilities and tolerance level at present time, never pushing... But yet with a goal in mind to increase his level of tolerance when time comes for him to do something that he would much rather not do. And this time will come sooner or later. No matter how much we try to remove stress, some things are outside of our control. But getting the dog prepared to some degree is within our control..   Again, like jacksdad says - not at all unlike raising children. In the end life is not all play, there is also work from time to time and they need to be ready for this.

[emmabeth]

Mmm but for SOME things we are capable of doing more management or 'baby steps' training than we sometimes realise.

For example with vets - You can phone in advance and ask that the receptionists call you in from outside where you are waiting in a quiet place or in your car, rather than risk a busy waiting room. You can ask to be seen first or last to avoid this too.

You can ask if its possible to visit the office at quiet times, where there won't be any other dogs/cats/whatever in there and the staff can chuck some tasty treats to your dog, then you can leave again, thus building up the idea that vets office = good!

It can be really really easy to fall into the trap of thinking 'I MUST do this and it is totally necessary, therefore using force IS acceptable in this instance' - look at how people cleverly twist things like certain types of training on some tv shows! 'I MUST pin this dog and choke him, because he is trying to rip my head off' - and 'If i do not do this, this dog will be put down' - well yes, taken at face value that might be correct, but it neatly avoids many of us realising there was a time BEFORE the dog was about to rip someones head off... and things could have been dealt with then... differently.

Grooming is an issue where people will use force because its for the dogs own good - thats primarily because they don't realise just HOW fast positive methods might be, nor that they can do much of the work there themselves.

Sometimes, we really do have to, but those times are EXTREMELY rare in reality - most times we can think of a way around things and if we DO, if we reserve forcing a dog into something for life or death emergencies only, and train for, proof our dogs to, work our way through, the other more mundane issues - our dogs will trust us more! And, recover better from the times we DO have to do something unpleasant.

[Sarah83]

Look at how Ladybug has handled her dogs problems with the vet. Like Emmabeth says, we are often capable of more management and smaller steps than we believe we're capable of. Sometimes it's just a matter of figuring out how to manage it and where to start with the baby steps. Dogs do need to learn to cope with new situations but I dont believe forcing them into situations they're uncomfortable with teaches them anything except that maybe you're not to be trusted. I believe it has to be done at their pace and with their cooperation for them to learn from it.

And I'm with Jacksdad, I pick my battles carefully, choose when to work on them depending on the dog, the day and various other factors and sometimes choose not to work on one at all. I've now given up trying to desensitize Rupert to other dogs. I've spent 7 and a half years trying and gotten nowhere. It's stressing me out, stressing Rupert out and the situation isn't nice for any of us. I've found a field I've never seen anybody use, it's full of rabbit holes, mole hills and man eating nettles and isn't a particularly nice place from a human point of view, especially given the lovely walking areas round here. Rupert loves it there though. So we're just going to go there and he can enjoy being a dog without worrying about looking out for other dogs and I can enjoy being with him and watching him take pleasure in something outside the house.