The Old 'Aggression' Chestnut

[jacksdad]

based in the USA my self.

Yes, having a fearful dog does create a very steep learning curve. But it does get easier. it really does.

[Sarah83]

Those ears make me think terrier but I'm no expert. I was in the UK, moved to Germany in June. I've found it's much easier to avoid other dogs out here thanks to the large grassy verges.

I was in way over my head when I first got Rupert. He's taught me more about training, body language and fearful/aggressive behaviour than I ever thought I'd know

[Fundog]

It looks to me like a lurcher! And he's good looking, too.

[ladybug1802]

I know it can be very overwhelming at first...very!! But it will all fsall into place!

I am in the UK!

[Nettle]

Brilliant pics: thank you.

At first glance I think we have a nice collie lurcher type here. But the lay of the shoulders and fore end is unusual. I must have a think about that.

I'll be back.....

[Ocelot0411]

Nettle, why do you say no muzzle? I ask as I have had to resort to muzzling my youngest GSD, as she bit my partner when air snapping at another dog. Do you think this makes them worse?

[Nettle]

I say 'no muzzle' for several reasons, although I appreciate it works well in individual cases:

It takes another line of defence away from the fearful dog. It isn't that he should use the bite, but that he thinks it is still available to him. Otherwise, he can't run, he can't fight, and most dogs will then go into meltdown - which doesn't exactly help the fear or stress levels.

It's a good discipline for the owners - it makes them much more aware of what is going on around them. I'm not saying this of OP, but too many people get complacent once a muzzle is on, and thoughtlessly or deliberately get the dog into fearful situations, because they think they have the muzzle as backstop. A muzzled dog is still frightened. More frightened.

Muzzles on fast-running dogs such as this lurcher don't allow them to pant and cool properly. Should the dog get loose with a muzzle on and in the wrong conditions, it is possible for it to overheat and die.

A muzzled dog can still do damage by smacking another with its muzzle. It then gets into more trouble because the other dog can bite.

Ocelot, with your particular situation, you know what was wrong now - too close, not paying enough attention, not moving fast enough, and while I'm sure you have put these things right, you can see how people less aware might just whack a muzzle on the dog and carry on as before.

I'm not anti-muzzle, but I like to keep their use to a minimum.

[Ocelot0411]

Thanks Nettle, I hear what you're saying about making them more frightened and will give it some thought. TBH with you though the other reason I have done it is that some people STILL allow their dogs to come charging at mine saying 'ooooh he's only wanting to play!'. Well that's as maybe, but my girl does not want to play and she will not just aggress, she will attack and she will keep coming at it. Given her size and strenght the damage she could do really frightens me.

The other thing is she's started to become 'unpredictable' with people. I love this dog but she's become a liability to be honest. It so sad and unfair, but now I am part of a four dog household (not my doing or choice) I feel that she will never get the time she needs to become better and all we are doing is 'managing' situation.

If I could say one thing to people on this board and one thing only it would be that a multiple dog household is only for people who have the time to dedicate to mulitple dogs. If you only have just enough time for one (as I did before I moved in with my partner and his three) you do not have time for anymore.

[Nettle]

That extra information tells me that the muzzle is a good idea in your circumstances, Ocelot.


Oh HOW I hate those people who let their dogs rush up (had another only yesterday " He wants to say Helloooooo" did he blazes. She' d've been shocked at what he was really saying )

If I could say one thing to people on this board and one thing only it would be that a multiple dog household is only for people who have the time to dedicate to mulitple dogs. If you only have just enough time for one (as I did before I moved in with my partner and his three) you do not have time for anymore.

Thank you for saying that. So often people think more dogs would be less work (they entertain each other, right? ) but in fact they are MORE work - with very often one partner doing most of it. Two dogs are more than twice the work of one dog.


When I joined up with Mr. Nettle, we went from two dogs to four, and my it was a seismic change for all of us

[Sarah83]

Thanks Nettle, I hear what you're saying about making them more frightened and will give it some thought. TBH with you though the other reason I have done it is that some people STILL allow their dogs to come charging at mine saying 'ooooh he's only wanting to play!'. Well that's as maybe, but my girl does not want to play and she will not just aggress, she will attack and she will keep coming at it. Given her size and strenght the damage she could do really frightens me.

Ruperts the same. If a dog gets past me he'll tear into it and keep on going at it. I can usually see other dogs off with the Voice of Doom and body blocking but the other week we had 4 loose dogs rush up to us at once and although they weren't aggressive I couldn't be between Rupert and all 4 at the same time. The jack russell got knocked into next week by Rupe but had he not been muzzled it would have been badly injured and the fight would likely have set the other dogs off too.

I've had mixed experiences with the muzzle. Out here people seem to respect it and keep their dogs away. Back in the UK I actually had people purposely set their dogs on him when he was muzzled and others torment him and even try to hurt him in an effort to get him to show aggression. Usually young men doing these things. I didn't live in the nicest of areas. I stopped muzzling him there and took my chances with him on a halti. None of those things happened without the muzzle on.

[Mrs Sowerberry]

If I could say one thing to people on this board and one thing only it would be that a multiple dog household is only for people who have the time to dedicate to mulitple dogs. If you only have just enough time for one (as I did before I moved in with my partner and his three) you do not have time for anymore.

Thank you for saying that. So often people think more dogs would be less work (they entertain each other, right? )

So you don't think getting another dog would help Arthur learn to live in canine harmony?

But seriously, sometimes, when he sees other dogs chasing balls or just running around, I feel he would like to join in. He looks to me like he wants to play - but I am no master of body language yet - but then when he gets close to them it all changes. Could this be possible? And if I just let him go he'd just join in the fun ('course I couldn't really do it.)

[Nettle]

The thing is (that so few of us realise) that adult animals don't "play" - and, really, nor do young animals.

Everything they do is rehearsal for adult life - humping, chasing, scrapping, tugging etc ad inf. So when we see a dog "playing" with a ball - what is it actually doing with that ball? Chasing it, killing it? And when we see a group of dogs 'running around playing' they are really rehearsing the chase part of attacking other dogs and sending them off their territory. Of course they are enjoying themselves and mostly don't attack each other - if they are well-adjusted well-socialised dogs they swap between chaser and chasee, and don't get too rough.

Then you see the dog that isn't part of that group and who seems to want to join in and 'play' with the others. And sometimes it works - but more often it doesn't, and the 'play' gets a bit too boisterous or the visiting dog gets surrounded, and suddenly some are way out of their depths. Whether they freeze, attack or run away depends on the group dynamics and the individual concerned. Wanna be in our gang?

Don't take my word for it - go to a dog park at busy times, learn the established groups and how they interact in "play" then watch the stranger who wants to join in.

When dogs 'play' they assess each other for strength, weakness, commitment, fearfulness and many other things besides.

Now think of human 'sport' and wonder how similar it can be

[Mrs Sowerberry]

Me again

Thanks for that reply Nettle. So are you saying that my dog really just wants to chase and attack these other dogs he sees apparently playing fetch? And is that because he is frightened?

I ask this now because I noticed specifically today that when we saw a dog in the distance but walking away in the same direction as us, my dog was straining at the lead seemingly to catch up with the other dog. I am struggling with the reasons for his behaviour and have been working on the assumption that it is fear based, but I dont understand why he would want to get to a dog who is quite a distance away and walking away from us if it fear based.

As a slight aside from that question, I am beginning to think that when he 'goes for' small dogs, it is akin to chasing squirrels (which he would love to do if only I'd let go of the lead) and is instinct driven. But I just dont know about the bigger dogs.

Another thing I've noticed is that he seems to provoke a bad reaction from other dogs. He is not always first to snap. Is it something about the way he looks, his appearance, or his body language? I am still dumb over body language - usually to busy fighting the fire to see how he's holding his tail or how tight his lips are. I just dont understand what's going on.