Training severely traumatized/abused rescue dog

[Rustyoldknife]

Hi,
I just adopted a very sweet, very timid mini poodle from a local rescue in WA. They said that she had come from a very abusive home and would take some time warming up. I think she came from a puppy mill where she was left in a crate all the time and smacked around when she wasn't. Either way, she has some issues. Luckily, it only took one day for her to warm up to me and I am definitely her mama. The vet suspects that she's about a 1.5 years and is very healthy now (when I got her a couple of months ago, she was very malnourished, filthy, and wouldn't eat).

Anyway, she is very comfortable in my home (our home) and I figured she was ready to be trained over a month ago. I managed to teach her 'no', 'come' and 'sit' right away, but she won't do them now unless she sees some point in it (like a treat). She won't sit at all for me unless I have a treat (often gets too excited too) and only comes to me when she either wants to snuggle or come in from outdoors. I think the only reason she comes in from outdoors is because she's afraid that I will leave her out there, though I've never done that.

She has a lot of separation anxiety as well. She lays/sits down in a way where she can always see me. Also, when I leave, for no more than a few hours at a time, she goes to the bay window and waits there until I come back - often scratching on the window as I'm leaving. When I return, she's so overjoyed that she'll jump up on me and scratch me repeatedly with her paws. I've tried ignoring her until she calms down, but it takes a while before she does. Usually, I'll say hi for a second, and then ignore her until she calms down.

She had some problems pottying in the house at first, but with regular back yard visits and constant positive affirmation when she goes potty out back, I think she has stopped in the house (unless I leave her for too long a period of time). Also, she used to chew everything, including pillows, blankets and curtains, but I've given her toys to chew on and praised her greatly when she played with them. No more bad chewing so far.

We have a loose daily routine. Breakfast, potty outside with a little play if it's not raining. Then I work from home and she sits and watches me, sleeps or plays with a toy. If it's not raining, we'll go for a walk. She is happy to be outside, but she won't walk ahead of me. Sometimes she does get ahead, but then realizes is and rushes back behind me. Also, she doesn't walk very far before she get's very scared of something (usually somebody) and stops walking altogether, sometimes trying to dart away. After that, it's dinner and we relax watching tv or I work some more.

She used to be afraid of everyone and everything, but now that's only when we're away from home. At home, she barks and growls at people, but runs if they come near her. I have a pet boarding business, so I often see new people and other dogs. She's fine with the dogs after the people leave, but won't play with them. When the people come back, she barks and growls, then hides in the bedroom. I don't force her to say hi to anyone, but I will pick her up and have her join us as we're 'meeting and greeting', often trying to put her on the ground so she has the opportunity to sniff and say hi. She's actually overcome a lot of the fear and will stay in the room while people are there, but still barks and growls. She's never attacked, though.

I hope this isn't too much information; I just need a little help on how to train and socialize her. I thought about taking to her obedience classes, but she would just be terrified the whole time. Any advice would be welcome.

[emmabeth]

I think you have actually made quite a lot of progress.

Do you think it would be fair to say that, given her previous history you have tried very hard to kinda 'make it up to her' at all??

I suspect that the 'won't respond unless she can see a treat' thing is a symptom of that, its really easy to accidentally turn reward training into bribery, but there are some simple tricks you can do so she is always willing to work even if she can't see a treat.

The fear thing - I think you are right about classes just yet - too scary. Also I would not be picking her up, effectively forcing her to remain in the room with strangers. Have her behind a gate so she can see them but is aware they cannot approach her (and do not LET them approach her!). Whilst visitors are there then you can toss food to her through/over the gate and hopefully she will start to associate people with a/food, and b/no confrontation.

Whilst she may never have bitten someone YET, if she feels sufficiently trapped/threatened, she will, so do bear that in mind - her growls are a communication that she is not comfortable, set the situation up so that she doesnt feel as if she HAS to growl, and you will make more progress.

Mini poodles are smart cookies (quite probably why shes figured out she can blow you off if you don't have a treat right there!) - I would do clicker training with her (www.clickertraining.com, and our thread on it in the articles section of the forum), to teach her new behaviours, and fade out the click + treat quite quickly (NEVER fade out the treat without fading out the click too!).

Make a point of carrying treats around in your pocket, have some really high value stuff in one pocket and some every day boring stuff (her own kibble) in the other. Also place some pots of treats around the house where she cannot reach/see, so that you are ALWAYS near to a treat even if you don't have one in your hand.

Then you can show her a treat in your hand, close your fist and ask her for a behaviour she knows well, then reward her from either that hand, or your pocket, or a pot somewhere across the room - vary it so she never knows where the treat will come from.

With the clicker you can, once she is conditioned to understand that click means 'treat is coming', use the pots rather than food in your hand, and you can gradually build behaviours up so she has to do one, then two, then three, then one, then three, then two, etc before you will click and reward.

And of course, she will never know if shes getting a high value reward, or a boring bit of kibble low value reward.

All of this will keep her guessing, making you less predictable. Right now she probably thinks if she can't see a treat, then there definitely isn't one in the offing so it isn't worth working. By doing the above stuff she will be pretty confident that there IS a reward.., eventually, and it MIGHT be a really high value reward, so it IS worth working and guessing and trying to get you to 'pay out'.

[Rustyoldknife]

Hi!
Thanks for the tips. I'll be sure to try them.

"Do you think it would be fair to say that, given her previous history you have tried very hard to kinda 'make it up to her' at all??"
- I have had rescue dogs in the past where I have definitely done this, but in my experience, it has often hindered their progress. At first,with my new pup, she was very afraid of my hands, but I wanted her to understand that being petted was a wonderful thing. So I would force the issue very gently and for only small amounts at a time, until she gradually began to like it. Now, she absolutely loves having her head scratched. I have shown her loads of love and praised her a lot when she deserved it, but I don't want to allow her to be afraid of everything. So I've just pushed her to do some things she wouldn't do on her own, like taking walks or coming on trips with me to my relatives houses (where they have dogs too). Often, I'll bring her bed with us on trips and make up a 'spot' for her, so she always has a place of comfort to go to when she's overwhelmed. I have been firm with my 'no's' with her, obviously not physically telling her 'no', but follow that up with praise when she's doing things correctly (as in with the chewing I mentioned). When I tell her 'no', I like to show her what she should be doing and praise her for that.

I was afraid that the treat thing was turning into bribery, so I think that the 'hidden' treats and the great vs normal treats might be the trick. I've tried the clicker, but she's afraid of the noise, so I didn't want to push that until she's overcome a lot of her fears.

I will try the gate thing, but I'm also afraid she will think I'm separating her from me. She will also bark the whole time. But, if it works, then it would be all worth it.

Again, thanks so much for your advice.

[jacksdad]

At first,with my new pup, she was very afraid of my hands, but I wanted her to understand that being petted was a wonderful thing.

Is it a wonderful thing? you sure about that?

Petting is very much a primate/human thing. generally speaking dogs do learn to tolerate and maybe even enjoy petting, but this is one of those things that is all about us 99.999999% of the time. There are dogs that will not like or no matter what have very limited tolerance for petting. Other dogs will have to over come past negative associations with being touched/petted. It is generally best to let the dog set the pace and make the choice to seek the attention.

My dog isn't comfortable with strangers, he doesn't see any and all people as potential sources of "wonderful petting". At a recent vet appointment the vet did not touch him at all until Jack asked for it. which he did when he was ready. By the end of the visit he had made the choice to seek attention and was getting all kinds of scratches and pets from this person he had never met before.

but I don't want to allow her to be afraid of everything. So I've just pushed her to do some things she wouldn't do on her own

her being afraid isn't up to you. and pushing her could one of these days back fire. you might be surprised what patience, improving trust (step one, don't push), building a bond with the dog and helping them build their confidence, will lead to a dog doing something you never thought they would all on their own.

Just some food for thought when working with a fearful and or abused dog.

I would also encourage you to drop using "NO" and the idea she needs corrections. The reason for this is more about you than the dog. when you think in terms of "NO" or corrections you focus on the negative and what is "wrong", verse what would you rather the dog be doing. While my dog does not have any abuse issues to over come, he does have low confidence and fear issues. I work very hard to avoid just trying to tell him "NO" when he does something I would rather he didn't. I am trying to build the habit of stepping back and saying to my self..."what would I rather he be doing when he does X" then work to replace X with what I would rather he be doing. Then I work to teach him that rather than doing X, do Y...if he "slips" and does X rather then tell him "NO" or "correct" I just ask him to perform Y" The other issue with "NO" and "corrections" is these are way to general and dogs need specific and it doesn't teach what the dog should do. Don't to this, oh and don't do that, but what should I do?

Example, I would rather my dog not bark at the the window over every little noise or smell or seeing a dog he is not comfortable with. normally the solution is prevent the dog from viewing out the window. But with my dog it doesn't matter if he can't see out the window, there are still things that will set him off based on hearing or smell. so, I call him to me and I actually say "thank you Jack" give him a little praise, and change the "subject" by playing with him or letting him jump in my lap for some attention etc. It might seem that I am rewarding an "unwanted behavior", the barking at something he heard or smelled, or if the curtains are open seeing something. The reason it's not is he isn't having fun, his reaction is fear based. In his case he isn't having anymore fun than me. End result, last summer he would bark "forever" at the drop of a hat over the smallest things, even without the ability to see out the window and the trigger being long gone. this summer, he stops very quickly if he barks at all. This was accomplished by not thinking in terms of "NO" or "corrections", but rather how can I make my dog not feel the need to fear bark at every little thing seen/unseen, heard or smelled that passed the house.

I've tried the clicker, but she's afraid of the noise, so I didn't want to push that until she's overcome a lot of her fears.

not a problem. you can "clicker" train without the click. replace the click with your voice. use a word like yes rather than a click. I conditioned my dog to respond to "yes" just like he would a click.

One of the first things you might want to try with your dog in terms of clicker training, after you "load the clicker" or special word, is the 101 to do with a box game. this is a great confidence builder because there is NO way to get it wrong. anything your dog does with the box is ok and earns a treat. touch the box = treat, jump in the box = treat, tears the box up = a treat and so on. the idea is the dog learns it's ok to offer behavior and the process of getting it right builds confidence. and with this game the dog can't loose or get it wrong. the only "rule" is as the dog learns to play, it has to offer new behavior to earn a treat verse just touching the box over and over and over again. Initially keep game time short and tolerate some repetition to keep interest up.

[emmabeth]

I can understand why you think pushing her a bit, telling her things are wrong etc, and balancing that with positive reward would make for faster progress...

But it actually doesn't.

What happens when you punish her (in the strictest, most scientific sense of the word, ie, you do something to immediately stop the behaviour and make her not want to repeat it, i dont mean punish as in 'be really mean'), is that you make avoiding punishment important to her..

When avoiding punishment is important and a priority this has a negative effect on something else... that being the desire to figure out ways to earn reward.

When you teach her with rewards and you want her to learn and figure out for herself (as that is the best way of learning), she needs to be open and confident to test behaviours out and seek the rewards.... but she cannot do that whilst also having 'avoid punishment' as her priority.

The two things conflict, they cannot both exist at the same time, so you actually don't make anywhere near such good progress as you would if you set her up to succeed (ie, you make failure/getting things wrong REALLY hard), prevent her doing the wrong thing (or feeling the need to do the thing you don't want her to), and give lots of reward for the right things.

Dogs do need to accept things like being touched, personally I would say its up to the dog in question if they like being petted for no reason other than human pleasure, but some kinds of touch are necessary. By using force she is likely to be tolerating more than you realise (even if she is enjoying some of it), so again figuring out a way to make her WANT it, rather than just tolerate it, is the way to go.

[Rustyoldknife]

I appreciate your response, but I don't agree with you. I believe dogs enjoy physical affection, not just tolerate it. My little girl loves it from me, but not from very many others. This was a trust issue with her and she trusts me. I don't force her to 'tolerate' someone else petting her, but since she has learned to trust my physical touch, she is now warming up to other regular people in her life. She has even jumped into my mother's lap and loved it when her head was scratched.

Also, just like with a child scared of the dark, you don't coddle them and always allow them to sleep with the light on until they're in their 40's. You slowly work through the fear. Same with my pup. She loves to be outside, but is afraid of things that she doesn't need to be afraid of. That is why we take small walks at a time and go only until she's found something she's afraid of. This way, we have gone further and further each time we've walked. It's a process and though you might disagree with me, I don't think I'm 'pushing' her more than she can take. Pushing is a bad term; I'm providing her with opportunities to overcome her fears, and frankly, it's working.

I also don't think removing a dog from the window is a very good way to deal with behavior. It will stop the behavior in the short term, but it doesn't stop the source of the behavior.

I agree that there are several times when you shouldn't say no to your dog, but praise him/her instead when she/he does the right things. But in the case of a traumatized dog, such as I have, I believe she needed to understand which behavior was wrong and which was right. I taught her 'no' because she needed those boundaries, not because I was punishing her.

I do agree with you about the word praise and treats. I am going to try what is suggested above with multiple sources of great and boring treats.

[emmabeth]

Ok well.. the way I would deal with a dog who was worried by walking is to do really short walks, stopping just shy of where she would naturally decide shed had enough - reward her and turn around and go home again.

Repeat that several times a day, every day of the week, but vary the distance we go and the rewards she gets, sometimes stopping just outside the door, walking a pace or two, rewarding, going in again, so that she never knows how far you will go before there are rewards, nor whether the rewards mean the end of the experience or if there is more...

The end result being, a dog who is desperate for the walk to continue because it means more rewards, rather than a dog potentially associating each walk with having had 'too much'.

I don't bother teaching any of my dogs 'no', or expecting them to know right from wrong - they never will understand these things and if they did they would ONLY understand them in association with my presence - ie, 'don't do that when she can see'. So I see no point in doing it, as it risks squashing their desire to seek out reward, try new behaviours etc.

An example of a dog terrified to try new behaviours and permanently trying to avoid punishment is my saluki x afghan girl Ellie.

A year ago if you tried to brush her, she would tolerate it without a sound, rolling onto her back and showing you her tummy (which her old owners said meant she liked it)... and then without warning she would explode into snapping and snarling and blood curdling screams.

Without telling her no, we now have a dog who will stand, loose, unmuzzled to be groomed - she still doesn't actively like it, but she DOES think it is worth the pay off of high value treats.

All we have done is listen to her, we have demonstrated that we will back off if she says its too much, it hurts, etc. We have rewarded her consistently for being groomed and she LIKES rewards, we have been patient with her and now she feels she CAN tell us when its too much, without exploding. Now she can do a little polite 'grr' and I know to move to a different tangle or work on a different body part for a little while.

Along the way we have taught her other things and her personality has come out. Funny because she was described to me intially as having NO personality! She has gone from an almost silent dog, who sleeps in another room away from us (as she did with her previous owners), to a dog who is in bed with us, on the sofa with us, enjoys physical contact (they CAN learn to do this, I never said they couldnt!), woodles and wuffs and sings and gives a paw to tell us what she needs.
The shell-shocked girl frightened to even TRY a new thing 12 months ago, recently met with some friends of mine who saw her the weekend I adopted her. They remarked that she is a different dog now, as she belted up to them and flung herself at them joyfully - when they first saw her, she barely acknowledged their existance (and we were at their house five days!) even if they had hold of her lead.

So, in the most polite way I can manage - I do know what I am talking about here. What do you stand to lose if you back off a bit and find different, non-punishment based ways to make it clear what the boundaries are? Ellie has learned here what the boundaries are, but we haven't had to use the word 'no' or any kind of correction. We just focus on what we wanted and rewarded that, and the other things faded away!

[jacksdad]

I appreciate your response, but I don't agree with you. I believe dogs enjoy physical affection, not just tolerate it. My little girl loves it from me, but not from very many others. This was a trust issue with her and she trusts me. I don't force her to 'tolerate' someone else petting her, but since she has learned to trust my physical touch, she is now warming up to other regular people in her life. She has even jumped into my mother's lap and loved it when her head was scratched.

Ok, let me clarify. There are dogs that absolutely learn enjoy and even look forward to and seek out petting, rubbing, scratching and have learn to enjoy it to the point they get looks of bliss while receiving it. this still doesn't make it a natural thing for dogs. That little tidbit (that it's unnatural) is a very helpful piece of information to keep in mind when dealing with fearful and or abused dogs. in the case of an abused dog if they (the dog) has learned to associate an already unnatural thing with pain and punishment, "forcing" the dog to learn that hands can be a good thing isn't a good idea. forcing doesn't necessarily mean holding the dog down and forcing it to endure gentle and loving petting and rubbing. it could be luring in with a treat then having touching/petting as a condition of that treat. not saying that you did that, but that is what I am getting at. Let the dog first learn to trust you, and decide for it's self its safe to allow you to "do things" to it like gentle and loving pets and rubs and scratches. with fearful and abused dogs letting them make the choice is always the ideal way. Petting, rubbing, hugging, holding and so on are first and foremost a primate thing, not a dog thing. Doesn't make it wrong that we do these things to our dogs, but it's good information to keep in mind.

But if you think that there aren't dogs that don't enjoy petting or have a limit to how much they enjoy, I invite you to poke around this forum a little, might be enlightening.

Also, just like with a child scared of the dark, you don't coddle them and always allow them to sleep with the light on until they're in their 40's. You slowly work through the fear. Same with my pup. She loves to be outside, but is afraid of things that she doesn't need to be afraid of. That is why we take small walks at a time and go only until she's found something she's afraid of. This way, we have gone further and further each time we've walked. It's a process and though you might disagree with me, I don't think I'm 'pushing' her more than she can take. Pushing is a bad term; I'm providing her with opportunities to overcome her fears, and frankly, it's working.

I also don't think removing a dog from the window is a very good way to deal with behavior. It will stop the behavior in the short term, but it doesn't stop the source of the behavior.

when helping over come fears there are "various stages" you work through in helping your dog. One of which is sometimes preventing your dog from having to deal with that thing that scares them until they are ready. But first lets be very, very clear, there is a HUGE difference between "coddle" and reassuring/supporting/not abandoning your dog (or child) in the face of that which scares them. My dog does not faces his fears alone. I am right there with him so he isn't alone dealing with something he can't deal with properly. What I didn't share in my example with the window is that in addition what I shared, this year I have given him opportunities to watch out the windows, but I am right there with him to end the experience/session when it's clear he has had enough and can't deal with additional "exposure" to things that cause him anxiety and or fear. The end result is days like last Thursday he is able to watch out the window without me right there and have no issues with people, dogs, birds, etc the goings on outside. It's ok to "nudge" your dog a little and set them up to succeed at choosing to take a risk and take the next step so they continue to progress and improve, but you should never force or knowingly ask a fearful or abused dog to work beyond what they are capable of. I am fully aware that just preventing my dog from looking out the window isn't a complete solution, but that wasn't the point. the point I was getting at is that you can't force a dog to not be fearful or to over come their fears. It just doesn't work that way. Which isn't to say there aren't steps you can take to help your dog overcome their fears. You just can't force the outcome. the dog has to learn and choose on it's own if you want real progress.

I agree that there are several times when you shouldn't say no to your dog, but praise him/her instead when she/he does the right things. But in the case of a traumatized dog, such as I have, I believe she needed to understand which behavior was wrong and which was right. I taught her 'no' because she needed those boundaries, not because I was punishing her.

I do agree with you about the word praise and treats. I am going to try what is suggested above with multiple sources of great and boring treats.

Right and wrong are human concepts. Dogs will never get this. And telling your dog no when it does A, or B or C all things you don't want is confusing because the "meaning of no" is constantly changing. How is your dog to know what it means. Its no different than if you used the word sit to mean "stay" then later "down" then later "rollover" how is your dog to know what sit means if the association constantly changes?

Dogs are first and foremost going to do what is natural to dogs. That often collides with the way we humans want to live. That doesn't mean the dog was bad or wrong, rather it was just doing what was natural. Yet that absolutely doesn't mean we have to live with something that causes problems between human and dog. ie bath rooming in the house. But it is far more constructive to take the approach when my dog does X, what I would rather have it do is Y and make Y really rewarding and build Y to be the "default habit" rather than X.

And none of this means you can't have boundaries. But these boundaries/rules do need to be reasonable and make sense because if you for example have a "no dog on the couch" rule, unless you have a way to prevent the dog from getting to the couch when you are not home, the rule has no value. positive ways to prevent access in your absence is baby gate off the room with the couch, have the dog in a crate if the time you will be gone is short, or have your dog confined to a part of the house that is ok for your dog.

It is all about mind set, you alter your mind set from focusing on negatives to understanding your dog is just doing what is coming natural and if that collides with what you would rather it was doing, teach it an alternate behavior.

[Nettle]

I do a lot with traumatised and abused dogs, and I endorse every word of that.

[Flyby]

I would agree about the petting thing and the way different dogs like it or not. Pippin my terrier adores being hugged and cuddled, but my Ridgeback Odin is much less touchy feely. If Odin's sleeping on the bed or the couch, if I sit down to pet him he will get up every time. There's nothing wrong, he's perfectly happy, he's not a rescue dog with a bad past, but he's just not too comfortable being hugged. He will come back to get his head clapped and stroked under the chin, but anything more than that, he will let you do it, but you just know the hugs or cuddles are more for your pleasure than his.

I have to say at first I found it unusual for a dog to not like petting, but there's no problem happening here, it's not rejection, it's just the way he is. You do get times for a hug, but I need to be sitting somewhere first and let him jump up, then he'll settle in and cuddle up beside you, but too much clapping and he's off again. He just likes the attention and any close contact to be on his terms. That's ok. It doesn't mean anything.

It's not just me either, but he's exactly the same with Pippin. In what, some two and a half years since I've had Pippin, in all that time, I have only two pictures of my dogs sleeping close enough together for physical contact, and both occurred after very long walks when both dogs were worn out. Do I treasure those pics? Not really. It's too out of character for them both.


Edit: The funny thing is, if I sit on the floor rather than a chair, he will come and try to sit on you like a lap dog, that is a 50kg / 110lbs lap dog, and you can no longer see the TV.

[Rustyoldknife]

*sigh* I was hoping for more than just to 'give her more treats', but if you really believe that the word 'no' is a bad thing, then there's nothing more to say. You've convinced yourself that you don't like the word 'no' and have projected that on your pup, not the other way around. All you're doing is hindering their progress learning their boundaries and making it slower. You're making it a trial and error sort of thing for the dog where they have to 'figure out' their boundaries on their own because their parents don't like to say 'no'. That only creates a feeling of insecurity. Your method works, but it takes an unnecessarily long time to get where you want to go. What would you do if your dog bit someone at the park (and I'm not talking about distracting them with treats, but a full on bite)? Would you wait until they finished and then praise them for stopping? Seriously? I really do believe you've convinced yourselves that you're right about this and then perpetuated it around because, honestly, your method does work.

I'm disappointed in your responses and I should've looked down through the forums first to see the kind of 'care' you handle your dogs and guests. If I could unregister, I would. But now, I'm going somewhere else for answers - somewhere where people are more grounded in reality. Don't bother responded to me with the expectation that I'm going to read anything you say. I've no respect for your 'advice' anymore and I don't plan to ever come back to this forum again.

[Flyby]

To be fair Rustyoldknife, you're not listening. These people are trying to help you, and help you to help your dog.

It's a pity you find that disappointing, but these folks here are good people with a wealth of acutely relevant experience, and frankly, they really don't need to defend themselves or their ideas.

It's frustrating to see you leave so soon Rustyoldknife, if you'd hung around long enough for the 'positive reinforcement' penny to drop, you'd have really understood the benefits. Lots of people, myself included, come to the forum here just looking to 'tinker' with their previous experience of traditional training methods and it's hard to adjust to a whole different philosophy, but as far as I'm concerned, the proof is in the pudding, and the bottom line is, I've seen a massive difference in my own dogs. Both dogs have learned more, and had fun learning it, in the last four weeks than in the last four years using my traditional 'negative reinforcement' methods.

Give it a go Rustyoldknife, just give it a go.

[jacksdad]

*sigh* I was hoping for more than just to 'give her more treats',

common misconception. it's not about "more treats" for the sake of giving food to our dogs. rewards (food, games, toys) are a tool that reinforces the desired behavior in our dogs. It can work like a pay check in some cases, which is reasonable. After all who works for free? In other cases it's a tool for changing a dogs emotional association/response to something.

but if you really believe that the word 'no' is a bad thing, then there's nothing more to say. You've convinced yourself that you don't like the word 'no' and have projected that on your pup, not the other way around. All you're doing is hindering their progress learning their boundaries and making it slower. You're making it a trial and error sort of thing for the dog where they have to 'figure out' their boundaries on their own because their parents don't like to say 'no'. That only creates a feeling of insecurity. Your method works, but it takes an unnecessarily long time to get where you want to go. What would you do if your dog bit someone at the park (and I'm not talking about distracting them with treats, but a full on bite)? Would you wait until they finished and then praise them for stopping? Seriously? I really do believe you've convinced yourselves that you're right about this and then perpetuated it around because, honestly, your method does work.

It's about understanding the issue with our dogs and listening to what our dogs are trying to tell us so that we can help them. Sounds a little fuzzy and "mystical", but it's not and I am not sure how to phrase it so it sounds less so. our dogs give us clues and it's up to use to learn to pickup on them I guess is another way of saying it. Focusing on "NO" as the response to something our dogs do that we don't want/like makes that difficult. that is all we are saying. Avoiding "NO" doesn't create insecurity because they learn what is expected and they aren't punished for not being perfect while learning what it is they should be doing. it promotes the dogs willingness and confidence to offer behavior, which sometimes might actually be something useful and better than what you might have been shooting for in the first place.

Addressing what we want from our dogs isn't trial and error. most common problems and training goals are very similar across the board. which means that most of what to do has already been figured out by those who came before. all we need to do is apply with minor tweaks to meet the needs of the individual dog. Steps worthy of following don't leave your dog 100% guessing and stumbling around "what do I do" (which is what just saying "NO" does)... with a little effort and thought you can figure out ways to help your dog discover what it is you want your dog to be doing. as Nettle's signature say, setup for success.

Helping an abused or fearful dog isn't a race that can be accomplished on our desired human time scale. you move at the dogs pace, helping it along and doing your utmost to not put it in situations that are currently too much for it to deal with.

As for your bite example. if you know your dog is a bite risk, there are things you can do to prevent the bite. one is being willing to listen to your dog and figure out why it feels it needs to bite, then stop dong those things OR stop putting it in a situation that causes the dog to feel biting needs to happen. Of course clearly other precautions may need to be taken such as a muzzle when necessary and appropriate. I also think you are taking your bite example to a silly extreme because you don't like what we have to say, and you are not ready to consider that "NO" isn't constructive or doing what you think it is.

I am am sure you care very much about your dogs, but honestly your mindset needs to be adjusted a little. particularly if your going to work with fearful or abused dogs.

As for our methods...I think I will stick with them. When my formally highly dog reactive dog can deal with a loose wild coyote 10/15 yards away (actually happened a couple weeks ago) better than he could deal with a domestic dog a year ago... I think the path we are on is absolutely the right one.

[chay]

I'm disappointed in your responses and I should've looked down through the forums first to see the kind of 'care' you handle your dogs and guests. If I could unregister, I would. But now, I'm going somewhere else for answers - somewhere where people are more grounded in reality. Don't bother responded to me with the expectation that I'm going to read anything you say. I've no respect for your 'advice' anymore and I don't plan to ever come back to this forum again.

what an offensive response. For the record, you've had advice from a qualified trainer, a professional behaviorist, and people who have success turning around highly reactive dogs all of whom know a lot more about dog psychology and training than you, and who have volunteered their time to try help you and your dog. If your methods work, why did you come here looking for help?

I don't care if you don't read this, I just am grateful the majority of people that come here are so much more open minded than you.

[runlikethewind]

She used to be afraid of everyone and everything, but now that's only when we're away from home. At home, she barks and growls at people, but runs if they come near her.

This statement of yours goes to show how much you are able to read your dog (that's not very much) and people have tried to demonstrate that. I dearly hope you find your other forums providing the same advice you have received here and that you then think twice about the comments you have made.

Since you are no longer reading the forum, my post is for the benefit of others reading this thread to keep it higher in the rankings for a while longer.