Training severely traumatized/abused rescue dog

[Erica]

*sigh* I was hoping for more than just to 'give her more treats', but if you really believe that the word 'no' is a bad thing, then there's nothing more to say. You've convinced yourself that you don't like the word 'no' and have projected that on your pup, not the other way around.

I know that you're going to ignore this, and I know dogs and horses are different animals, but...

It used to be thought that horses would not mimic people. You couldn't get the horse to shake its head by shaking your head, for example, or rear up by throwing your arms up (and not in a way that frightens the horse). However, this is just a side effect of "NO" training, which is traditional with horses. By telling the horse no, you said "you can't do anything but what I tell you." The horse wouldn't offer a new behavior in fear of being punished. However, with clicker training ("YES" training, treat training, positive reinforcement), the horse becomes willing to try new things, and will try to mimic the human, if he thinks that might get him a reward. There is a big difference, and ESPECIALLY in abuse cases, that positive reinforcement results in a more confident, less fearful animal. If anyone wants me to try to find this post about horses (I saw it ages ago but have a few sites where I might be able to find it), I can try.

Honestly, I feel sorry for your dog that you are not willing to try to help her overcome her fears, rather than force your opinion of how she should deal with them on her.

[Sarah83]

Why bother using no when it is so much easier and so much more effective to teach the dog what you DO want rather than what you don't want? My dog has very clear boundaries, he hasn't had to guess them and they have been enforced. Positive does NOT mean permissive, we don't allow our dogs to simply do as they please.

You CAN teach no as a sort of conditioned response I suppose. Pair "no" with a consequence such as being brought indoors. However most people don't do that. They simply stand there shouting "no, no NO" at the dog and getting more and more frustrated because the dog "ignores" them. The dog has no idea that "no" means the owner wants them to stop something, it's never been taught it. But then if you're constantly telling the dog "no, I don't want you to do that" but never teaching them what you do want them to do surely THAT is a dog who has to guess at what the rules are. I do say no to Rupert at times, I'm human, it's natural for me to do so. I do it a lot when I notice him about to shred a tissue he's stolen. I say "Roo, no," he looks up at me, wags is tail, watches me for a moment, goes back to the tissue "Rupert, NO!" Again he looks up at me with that questioning expression, watches me for a moment then goes back to the tissue. The lightbulb eventually goes on. "Rupert, leave it." With a great sigh and a grumble he gets up and stomps off away from the tissue.

My dog came to me so frightened of literally everything that I seriously considered putting him to sleep. He lived under my bed, he melted into a puddle of black fur at the slightest sound or sight of a new object and had no quality of life. The methods people have recommended here have worked with him, he's a completely different dog now.

What would you do if your dog bit someone at the park (and I'm not talking about distracting them with treats, but a full on bite)? Would you wait until they finished and then praise them for stopping?

Um...this is NOT a training situation. If this happened to me I would do whatever it took to get the dog to release as I'm sure everyone else here would.

[Flyby]

I think the problem here is people coming here asking for advice when what they really want more than advice is moral support and encouragement.

I imagine it's very stressful managing a rescue dog, especially one which isn't responding. I can put the offensive tone down to stress.

People who believe themselves to be good kind hearted people, and no doubt are, come here expecting a reassuring pat on the back and encouragement to keep up the good fight. Unfortunately one or two aren't quite ready for the wakeup call that perhaps the reason their dog isn't responding is the possibility they may be doing something wrong.

The irony is, the advice given to Rustrynail was guidance towards positive enforcement and contained constructive suggestions what to do and how to look at things from a new perspective, but she's interpreted that advice as negative enforcement, - 'don't do this or bad things will happen'.

QED.

Negative enforcement contributes to a lack of understanding, frustration, and an unsuccessful resolution of the problem.

[runlikethewind]

Emmabeth was particularly supportive in her response. It is my belief that all dogs respond given the right approach. So the fact that her dog is not responding, again is telling.This is just another (but RARE) case of someone coming here, not hearing what THEY want to hear and getting annoyed, having a go at everyone and disappearing off in a huff or dramatic flourish. It does become quite tedious. I have tried to PM people who have done this in the past and ask them to kindly come back and stay for chats but I find it weary. Best of luck to the dog.

[Sarah83]

The problem is, if we simply pat people on the back and tell them what it is they want to hear then we're doing the dogs no favours at all. Even if the person leaves in a huff because we haven't told them what they want to hear the ideas are there, they may just try them when they get nowhere doing what they've been doing. Plus there are probably dozens of lurkers reading these threads and never posting, the information is out there for them too.

It's not nice to be told you're doing something wrong with your dog, to have your beliefs challenged and turned upside down, to be told you stand a good chance of making your dogs problems worse etc. I know that, I've been there. I was skeptical of positive training, how can a dog ever learn to behave if you don't physically punish it? I argued the point but decided to be open minded enough to try. I gave it a try with my traditionally trained border collie who was very quick with his teeth if reprimanded, food aggressive and human aggressive. In the few months before he died I saw huge improvements. Then I got Rupert who I think would have died of fear if I'd put a choke chain on him and corrected him. Or smacked him. Or grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and shaken him. He's turned out to be a reasonably well behaved dog who I have an excellent relationship with and who has never so much as given me a hard stare. These days I can't imagine going back to physical or verbal punishment and feel horribly guilty for the things I did to Shadow in the name of training.

[Flyby]

Just to be 100% clear and understood, we are on the same hymnsheet.

I meant no criticism of any advice given, nor the spirit in which it was given. I merely observed it wasn't the advice Rustyoldknife wanted to hear. Let's all hope however it was the advice she needed to hear.

[JudyN]

What's so hard about saying 'Thanks for your advice. I'm not sure it's the right approach for me and my dog, and I'm not even sure about the whole positive training thing, but I do appreciate it and will think about it'?

Good manners don't cost nothing, do they?

[minkee]

I think Flyby did make a good point though - it's easy enough to say that when everything's going fine, but when you're stressed upto your ears it's not so easy to take criticism, even if it's as constructive as it comes! It happened just recently in another thread, but the OP came back in that one, which is a much more satisfactory ending. It takes real willpower to back down and try something new, when a) you've poo-pooed it, and b) you're super stressed out.

So here's hoping ROK can try out some of the advice and maybe see some benefits :) And if not, maybe some readers who don't post will instead.

[runlikethewind]

All she was advised was to avoid saying no (because it is a pointless word to a dog) and understand that some dogs don't like being hugged. It's not like some of the stuff which is said on here to people who are punishing their dogs. At the same time, she was told she had done really well to date and much support, understanding and positive words were given and practical tips given. It's ridiculous to blow off like that.

[ClareMarsh]

I'm disappointed in your responses and I should've looked down through the forums first to see the kind of 'care' you handle your dogs and guests. If I could unregister, I would. But now, I'm going somewhere else for answers - somewhere where people are more grounded in reality. Don't bother responded to me with the expectation that I'm going to read anything you say. I've no respect for your 'advice' anymore and I don't plan to ever come back to this forum again.

Oh my goodness, if someone can get this angry because they are being told something new / different to their experience, without even taking time to think about the advice given let alone try something new then I do worry about them being responsible for a dog that has the problems that this poodle has. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I might be a very new member but in the couple of weeks I have been reading this forum my own pup has come on in leaps and bounds, as has my relationship with him and undoubtedly his quality of life (not that he was not being looked after but I am now "listening" to him). Anyone considering joining and reading this please don't let the above response put you off, the trainers on here really know their stuff and their methods are fantastic

[emmabeth]

Probably time to draw a line under this, and I remind you of the old saying... " You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

If the OP is still reading - if you do wish to post again, feel free and if you have a change of heart we won't hold your previous posts against you.